Unit of the Week: Sanguinary Guard

[The Unseen]

 

 

D3 instead of flat 3 damage means DC with a chaplain are a strictly superior glass cannon. Also funny is that if you consider SG overcosted (which I believe they slightly are) then terminators are a true waste of points.

But you give up so much more for that glass cannon. With Lemartes, you can only afford (compared to 10 SG) 6 DC with thunder hammers, or a normal chaplain can bump that up to 7. Sure, that 6 (or 7) gets you 18 (or 21) Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge, with re-rolls to hit and charge (not charge with chaplain), and if Lemartes (or chaplain) can get their charge off, that will his punch in. Compared to the 20 power fist attacks SG get, the DC are definitely a stronger hitter on the charge. But then have less wounds (per model and in total), worse saves, no shooting attack, and inferior leadership. I'm not sure I'd say TH DC are as valuable as SG.

Firstly, you would never take a unit of DC with all THammers, that's silly, when their base chainsword guys do so much work.

That's hyper specializing, and 9/10 times you don't need that many power weapon attacks.

 

And while SG on paper look a lot tougher, when over charged plasma and the like starts getting thrown their way (and be assured, it absolutely will), I think their probably less durable overall then.

Yeah, they still get a 5+ armor save, but each failure pops 2 wounds, not 1.

 

And I haven't mentioned Terminators, but yeah, pretty much.

Their slow, can't reliably get the charge off when they deepstrike, and their shooting, while improved, isn't worth their cost, and over charged plasma eats them alive, 5++ or no.

[Brother Crimson]

I found the sanguinary guards to be very resilient, even against plasmas, they are fast so sometimes they get engaged outside of rapid fire range and they can still charge the turn after.

 

In cover they have a very reasonable 4+ against ap3 and if needed you can add a Standard of sacrifice. One FNP sucess means the next shot can effectively only do 1 dmg.

 

Worst case, you keep them in reserve and go for a descent of angels.

 

It is one of the unit that benefit the most from what the codex brings.

[Bremon]

But you give up so much more for that glass cannon. With Lemartes, you can only afford (compared to 10 SG) 6 DC with thunder hammers, or a normal chaplain can bump that up to 7. Sure, that 6 (or 7) gets you 18 (or 21) Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge, with re-rolls to hit and charge (not charge with chaplain), and if Lemartes (or chaplain) can get their charge off, that will his punch in. Compared to the 20 power fist attacks SG get, the DC are definitely a stronger hitter on the charge. But then have less wounds (per model and in total), worse saves, no shooting attack, and inferior leadership. I'm not sure I'd say TH DC are as valuable as SG.

A Chaplain isn’t free, but neither is your warlord. SG without the Warlord (and specifically an SGA, Librarian, or Sanguinor Warlord) aren’t really worth it. Model vs model, unbuffed, the DC get 50% more attacks and those attacks do 50% more damage on average. You can have 20 S8 -3 D3D attacks or 30 S8 -3 3D attacks for nearly the same price. One averages 13.8 damage against a standard tank, the other 31.25. Against a rhino, you don’t care. Against an exocrine, plagueburst crawler, etc. you do. Rolling a bunch of 1s and 2s for damage against a daemon prince feels pretty bad lol.

 

Firstly, you would never take a unit of DC with all THammers, that's silly, when their base chainsword guys do so much work.

That's hyper specializing, and 9/10 times you don't need that many power weapon attacks.

Charging a tank or monster with 5 hammer DC makes just as much sense as 5 SG, so...I don’t see any silliness involved.

 

Worst case, you keep them in reserve and go for a descent of angels.

 

It is one of the unit that benefit the most from what the codex brings.

DoA is the main reason SG are viable. Being able to hide in the sky from alpha strikes and reliably get the charge off before they’re obliterated is really the key. The Standard of Sacrifice only effecting models within 6” rather than a unit makes maximizing big their damage output and potential resiliency difficult. SG are optimal targets for a huge variety of enemy weaponry.

 

They die like regular marines do to overcharged plasma, etc, and their weaponry is generalist rather than specialist so they can’t be trusted to crack the hardest nuts across the table. I find success with them by choosing the highest value target that’s unlikely to wipe them if they get hit back, unless you’ve managed to shoot the hardest target down to half health first lol.

[toaae]

 

A Chaplain isn’t free, but neither is your warlord. SG without the Warlord (and specifically an SGA, Librarian, or Sanguinor Warlord) aren’t really worth it. 

 

I have never, not even once, gotten my reroll for Heirs of Azkallon. I certainly don't think it is necessary for SG to be effective, as they come ready to rock and roll with just about everything they need.

Edited March 16, 2018 by toaae

[Pendent]

 

 

A Chaplain isn’t free, but neither is your warlord. SG without the Warlord (and specifically an SGA, Librarian, or Sanguinor Warlord) aren’t really worth it. 

 

I have never, not even once, gotten my reroll for Heirs of Azkallon. I certainly don't think it is necessary for SG to be effective, as they come ready to rock and roll with just about everything they need.

 

 

With only 2 base attacks that only hit on 3's Sanguinary Guard desperately need those rerolls in order to output a decent amount of damage. Look at it this way- you are paying a very definite, although obfuscated, points cost for the Heirs of Azkaellon rule and leveraging that rule as much as possible is the way to make their damage output even begin to compete with Death Company.

 

The Sanguinor is really the perfect warlord to run with them in my experience because you get so much value. You don't have any of the waste you get when running them alongside a Captain or Dante while at the same time very nearly doubling your damage output between the extra attacks and the ability to reroll everything.

[toaae]

Sanguinary Guard don't compete with DC when it comes to damage output. You can do anything you want to improve that, but at the end of the day, every single buff you can give SG (other than their Heirs of Azkaellon) you could give DC.

So why take SG at all? The answer isn't just to get a hard hitting unit, but to get one that is also durable. I know people will respond with "overcharged plasma", but that's a function of playing the game. You'll have to use your army to mitigate the enemy's ability to target your SG with plasma. If you play in an environment with lots of armies running multiple plasma units, then SG are probably not a good fit for your meta. But if you can find ways to avoid letting your opponent shoot overcharged plasma at SG, they are incredibly durable against most other weapons.

 

As for Heirs of Azkaellon, if I really felt the need to get a reroll, I'd probably just invest in a chaplain, whose buff works on units, making a daisy chain easy, as opposed to relying on getting a warlord close enough to make use of the rule. In my mind, Heirs of Azkaellon is a useless rule.

[Ornithologist]

The buff they got from previous editions to 8th cannot be overstated.

 

They went from a 1/10 for me to a 8/10 for me.

 

Previous editions they were almost always oneshot by a single plasma cannon shot. 

 

Now I feel like using them in almost every list, as hard target removal. I also use some Deathco in my list, as a horde removal. I feel like htey both have places in this list now.

[Indefragable]

Sanguinary Guard don't compete with DC when it comes to damage output. You can do anything you want to improve that, but at the end of the day, every single buff you can give SG (other than their Heirs of Azkaellon) you could give DC.

 

Standard of Sacrifice.

 

 

As for Heirs of Azkaellon...though I personally would prefer it to confer some sort of defensive buff or invuln (to represent the duality of the BA; and the "unmovable object" of Azkaellon vs the "unstoppable force" of Amit), I definitely don't think it's useless. Say you take the Sanguinor, or a Sang Priest, or a jump Ancient, or a Librarian, or a Lieutenant and make them your WL. Now you can have the SG + WL off on a flank acting almost completely independently while your main force, which likely has a Capt or Dante or Seth, still benefits from the re-rolls. Not too shabby.

[toaae]

 

Sanguinary Guard don't compete with DC when it comes to damage output. You can do anything you want to improve that, but at the end of the day, every single buff you can give SG (other than their Heirs of Azkaellon) you could give DC.

 

Standard of Sacrifice.

 

When it comes to damage output.

[Pendent]

Sanguinary Guard don't compete with DC when it comes to damage output. You can do anything you want to improve that, but at the end of the day, every single buff you can give SG (other than their Heirs of Azkaellon) you could give DC.

 

So why take SG at all? The answer isn't just to get a hard hitting unit, but to get one that is also durable. I know people will respond with "overcharged plasma", but that's a function of playing the game. You'll have to use your army to mitigate the enemy's ability to target your SG with plasma. If you play in an environment with lots of armies running multiple plasma units, then SG are probably not a good fit for your meta. But if you can find ways to avoid letting your opponent shoot overcharged plasma at SG, they are incredibly durable against most other weapons.

 

As for Heirs of Azkaellon, if I really felt the need to get a reroll, I'd probably just invest in a chaplain, whose buff works on units, making a daisy chain easy, as opposed to relying on getting a warlord close enough to make use of the rule. In my mind, Heirs of Azkaellon is a useless rule.

 

My point is that when you don't leverage Heirs of Azkaellon you are actively throwing away the points that you paid for that rule. The ability to gain a full re-roll for hitting and shooting attacks from a model that's providing already another buff is potentially incredibly strong because it is so efficient. Without that added efficiency they're basically wet noodles

 

The Sanguinor is by far my personal favorite because he has such incredible synergy on top of being a solid pick on his own merits. Let's look at the math on a 5 man squad with swords against an MEQ target with and without him:

 

-Without using Heirs of Azkaellon they get 10 attacks, 6.7 hits and 4.3 wounds or 3.6 unsaved wounds. This is frankly an unacceptable amount of damage given that we're using the Guard against one of their best targets

 

-Using Heirs of Azkaellon along with The Sanguinor they get 15 attacks, 13.3 of which hit, 8.8 of which wound for a total of 7.4 unsaved wounds. Then The Sanguinor gets to swing as well and will very likely wipe the remainder of the squad. This has a very reasonable chance of wiping a 10 man squad of Intercessors in a single turn which is frankly pretty nuts given how tough they can be.

 

Without providing a reroll you only end up dealing something like 5.5 unsaved wounds with the buff from The Sanguinor. That's a very nearly 50% damage increase simply from making the use of a rule that you've already paid for when you put the Sanguinary Guard in your list.

 

 

You say you can just take a Chaplain for the re-rolls but there's a major opportunity cost there because you're actively giving up taking another buff character to provide a redundant re-roll. That Chaplain could instead be Lemartes buffing your Death Company who is objectively much more useful, or a Librarian or Mephiston. Yes, it's a bit easier to make use of the Chaplains buff but between Descent of Angels and a CP reroll there's a perfectly reasonable chance of getting both the Guard and the Sanguinor into combat.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Pendent

[Bremon]

I really think a JP Librarian is a potent warlord for SG, WC6 to replicate the Sanguinor’s +1A buff, and he can easily accompany them to combat for HoA buff through whatever combination of Angel’s Wing, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius you’d prefer. Personally Wings seems best to me because it doesn’t eat a Relic, and has a lower warp charge.

[Pendent]

I really think a JP Librarian is a potent warlord for SG, WC6 to replicate the Sanguinor’s +1A buff, and he can easily accompany them to combat for HoA buff through whatever combination of Angel’s Wing, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius you’d prefer. Personally Wings seems best to me because it doesn’t eat a Relic, and has a lower warp charge.

 

That's in many ways better than what I suggest because there's very little risk. I just like taking The Sanguinor because he's such a potent beatstick in his own right.

[toaae]

-snip-

 

I'm not trying to argue that making use of the rule is going to be more effective, I'm arguing that the opportunity cost of making use of the rule and the risk involved aren't worth it. First, if you take the Sanguinor as your warlord, you're giving up the ability to take a warlord trait on someone else. Whether it's Artisan of War or Gift of Foresight on the Captain, or some other trait, you're giving it up by making the Sanguinor your warlord. Now, at least he isn't stuck with a poor one like Mephiston, but it's still an opportunity cost.

 

Then, most likely, you'll have to use a command point to make the Sanguinor's charge over 50%. That command point is more valuable to me than whatever obfuscated cost Heirs of Azkaellon is. And even with that stratagem, you still are risking a lot on a nearly 50/50 roll, just to get rerolls on the Sanguinary Guard.

 

When it works, great, the SG and the Warlord will probably murderize anything. But the half the time you're just using the Sanguinor's attack buff, and not the Heirs of Azkaellon, you have to ask yourself "Was it worth it?". I don't think so.

 

And yet, I still think SG are worth it. They are durable bully units. Where DC provide the real punch in our lists, SG provide staying power without sacrificing the ability to actually kill things. I've got 10 new SG on my painting docket, and so far, they've done what I've needed them to. When buffed, they can take on anyone's power unit. When unbuffed, they are a terror to back-field units, who just can't seem to break them down slowly, which does happen with DC and Vanguard and every other assault unit.

[Indefragable]

 

I really think a JP Librarian is a potent warlord for SG, WC6 to replicate the Sanguinor’s +1A buff, and he can easily accompany them to combat for HoA buff through whatever combination of Angel’s Wing, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius you’d prefer. Personally Wings seems best to me because it doesn’t eat a Relic, and has a lower warp charge.

 

That's in many ways better than what I suggest because there's very little risk. I just like taking The Sanguinor because he's such a potent beatstick in his own right.

 

 

I prefer the Sanguinor over Librarian since it's a given buff. Lots of psykers (and thus lots of DtW) and Black Templars/Khorne in my meta so I am particularly sensitive to psychic powers rarely going off, let alone when you want them to. One of the reasons poor Mephy still doesn't see much use for me.

 

Also, the Sangunior's WLT makes said unit of SG never have to take Morale tests. Something that falls through the cracks a lot, but is incredibly useful.

 

EDIT: spelling

Edited March 16, 2018 by Indefragable

[Bremon]

Unbuffed, libby and Sanguinor have the same chance of reaching combat; pitifully low. After losing 3 SG to morale a few games ago I’ve also switched to the fearless warlord trait lol.

 

Regarding the +1 Attack, you’re absolutely right that it’s a blessing the Sanguinor’s aura is static.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bremon

[Panzer]

Okay so I don't use the Sanguinary Guard. Or Deathcompany. Or Vanguard Veterans. My army is 100% Primaris except for a few characters.

 

However when I look at the Sanguinary Guard i see a few strength over Deathcompany. Those are:

- multi-damage weapons

- 2+ armor (means less in need of invul saves)

- can benefit properly from the relic banner

 

If you don't need any of those things for your beatstick then take Deathcompany. If you need any of those, take Sanguinary Guard.

[Silverson]

I'm not sure if this belongs here because of how much it talks about characters but it is all about getting the best out of sanguinary guard so I thought it was the best place to put it. please remove it if it is in the wrong place. thank you.

 

so after another game with my sanguinary guard yesterday (10 man with 5 swords, 5 fists and angelus bolters) I have come to the conclusion that the re-rolls to hit are a must to deal with things on the charge. so with that I see these options (if anyone has any other options please let me know)

 

• Jump pack librarian(warlord) with wings and maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Commander Dante
• Jump pack captain(not mandatory warlord), maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Astorath the grim (if made warlord the sanguinary guard get re-rolls to hit in shooting as well)

so with that what are the most viable?

 

Jump pack librarian with wings (could put in quickening instead of wings but seem to high a risk to me) and unleash rage psychic powers coupled with the angel's wing relic sound very good on paper and cheap for what he enables the sanguinary guard to achieve with the cost being the mandatory warlord. (beware psychic denial) 

 

Commander Dante fluff wise should be the go to guy to pair with sanguinary guard but it just works out so terrible when you factor in his cost, the not leveraging heirs of Azkaellon  and the sanguinary guard still only having two attacks each after his inclusion so another buffer would be needed.

 

Jump pack captain seems a cheap option solely for the re-roll ones buff and given the angel's wing relic has an ok chance of getting into combat alongside the sanguinary guard but compared to the Jump pack librarian it seems like the worse option to me.

 

Which leads me to Astorath the grim, a character I must admit I have not given a second glance sine getting the codex until now.he has a captain stat line with a better save, he allows all blood angels units within six inches to re-roll (including draeds etc...) to hit, doesn't need to be the warlord but has a good situational warlord trait if its needed. has fantastic synergy with the other big hitters (death company and lemartes). and his buffs are not as risky as the librarians when brought against psychic denial. all things considered I think he is on par with the librarian because of his synergy with other aspects of our army and his mass of doom can be a big swing in a turn but not something to be relied upon.

 

To get the most out of sanguinary guard they need the buffs to get them to do enough damage, and with that I think they need two of either Jump pack librarian, The Sanguinor or Astorath the grim.

 

unless jumping up the field and not using the descent of angels rule I believe the sanguinary ancient(unless combined with the company ancient) and jump pack sanguinary priest are the red herrings and should be avoided.

[Bremon]

If you want rerolls from astorath you can take a cheap chaplain who can probably make it to combat easier with the relic JP (I’ve never used astorath so I’m unsure of any charge rerolls he might have).

 

The Librarian is my personal favourite. Quickening is too risky compared to wings, the warp charge is too high.

 

The Ancient is as viable as any other jump pack character, but you really want the Standard of Sacrifice on it, but to maximize the efficacy of the SG unit you want Angel’s Wing, so I can see the point needing to deep strike out of LOS and striking the next turn.

 

Jump Pack Priest is just plain bad imo, +1S doesn’t interact meaningfully enough with +1 to wound compared to reroll 1s to wound, or attack bonuses, etc.

[toaae]

Jump Pack Priest is just plain bad imo, +1S doesn’t interact meaningfully enough with +1 to wound compared to reroll 1s to wound, or attack bonuses, etc.

 

The priest is a great choice for SG with Swords, as the bump up to S5 is super powerful vs T4 and T8 targets. Depends on your meta, but a priest with Angel's Wing would make a very effective WL for SG.

[Brother Crimson]

Personally I really like chaplain + another character as warlord. Most likely there is more than one unit that can benefit from chaplain and it gives freedom to get whatever warlord needed. Sanguinor, Captain smash, Librarian, these are all great choices. Heirs of Askellion actually gives some redundancy and that’s a great thing as two characters need to be killed to take off the buff completely.

[Karhedron]

I really think a JP Librarian is a potent warlord for SG, WC6 to replicate the Sanguinor’s +1A buff, and he can easily accompany them to combat for HoA buff through whatever combination of Angel’s Wing, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius you’d prefer. Personally Wings seems best to me because it doesn’t eat a Relic, and has a lower warp charge.

I like the Angel's Wing relic for the potential to deny overwatch. Then again I have recently faced Tau so that may colour my judgement.

[Karhedron]

so after another game with my sanguinary guard yesterday (10 man with 5 swords, 5 fists and angelus bolters) I have come to the conclusion that the re-rolls to hit are a must to deal with things on the charge. so with that I see these options (if anyone has any other options please let me know)

• Jump pack librarian(warlord) with wings and maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Commander Dante
• Jump pack captain(not mandatory warlord), maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Astorath the grim (if made warlord the sanguinary guard get re-rolls to hit in shooting as well)

so with that what are the most viable?

 

unless jumping up the field and not using the descent of angels rule I believe the sanguinary ancient(unless combined with the company ancient) and jump pack sanguinary priest are the red herrings and should be avoided.

 

The other obvious choice is the Sanguinor who I believe is much better than Dante to lead the SG. His +1A aura cannot be denied, unlike a Librarian and he is a pretty beatstick character with a 2+/4++ save. The downside with the Sanguinor (apart from his cost) is that he lacks an easy way to keep up with the SG if you wish to use DOA. Librarians have psychic powers and generic characters can take the Angel's Wing relic for rerolling charges.

 

I am not sure the Priest or Ancient are red herrings. Both are pretty cheap (<100 points) and bring buffs that benefit the SG. Either can take the Relic JP and the SA can buff himself via Heirs of Azkellon as well as providing a reroll of 1s to wound thanks to the Banner.

[Silverson]

 

so after another game with my sanguinary guard yesterday (10 man with 5 swords, 5 fists and angelus bolters) I have come to the conclusion that the re-rolls to hit are a must to deal with things on the charge. so with that I see these options (if anyone has any other options please let me know)

• Jump pack librarian(warlord) with wings and maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Commander Dante
• Jump pack captain(not mandatory warlord), maybe the angel's wing relic.
• Astorath the grim (if made warlord the sanguinary guard get re-rolls to hit in shooting as well)

so with that what are the most viable?

 

unless jumping up the field and not using the descent of angels rule I believe the sanguinary ancient(unless combined with the company ancient) and jump pack sanguinary priest are the red herrings and should be avoided.

 

The other obvious choice is the Sanguinor who I believe is much better than Dante to lead the SG. His +1A aura cannot be denied, unlike a Librarian and he is a pretty beatstick character with a 2+/4++ save. The downside with the Sanguinor (apart from his cost) is that he lacks an easy way to keep up with the SG if you wish to use DOA. Librarians have psychic powers and generic characters can take the Angel's Wing relic for rerolling charges.

 

I am not sure the Priest or Ancient are red herrings. Both are pretty cheap (<100 points) and bring buffs that benefit the SG. Either can take the Relic JP and the SA can buff himself via Heirs of Azkellon as well as providing a reroll of 1s to wound thanks to the Banner.

 

 

I agree the sanguinor is good with sanguinary guard but I was specifically referring to getting the re-roll hits buff on the sanguinary guard which the sanguinor just cant provide. 

 

I'll elaborate a little on why I think a jump pack sanguinary priest and sanguinary ancient are poor choices to buff the sanguinary guard. it's purely because of what I am trying to send sanguinary guard against. and that is big nasties like hive tyrants/ magnus etc..... in this case all the units have t6 or higher so the +1 strength from the sanguinary priest wasted on all but toughness 8, the narthecium is good for subsequent rounds but not at killing. the sanguinary ancient with the angel's wing seems like it could work but it would mean giving up the main reason to take the sanguinary ancient in the first place (standard of sacrafice). not to mention that both of these characters need to make a 50% charge in order to give the re-rolls to hit.

 

on the other hand with a jump librarian with wings and unleash rage psychic powers and the angels wing relic has redundancy in making it either into combat or close enough that heirs of azkaellon works anyway.  Astorath the grim or a generic chaplin (thanks Bremon) don't need to even make the charge at all in order to give the re-roll buffs just seem far superior when trying to leverage the descent of angels stratagem. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Silverson

[Karhedron]

I agree the sanguinor is good with sanguinary guard but I was specifically referring to getting the re-roll hits buff on the sanguinary guard which the sanguinor just cant provide.

Why not? Make the Sanguinor your Warlord and you get both buffs rolled into one durable, killy package.

[Silverson]

 

I agree the sanguinor is good with sanguinary guard but I was specifically referring to getting the re-roll hits buff on the sanguinary guard which the sanguinor just cant provide.

Why not? Make the Sanguinor your Warlord and you get both buffs rolled into one durable, killy package.

 

 

because the sanguinor has no reliable way of making it into combat from deestrike to allow Heirs of Azkaellon to take effect(it only effects models within six not units).