Unit of the Week: Sanguinary Guard

[Neuralshock]

I am really hoping that some Strategems are tests for future data sheets. Sang Guard with Fly and 2+ and -1 To Hit in melee is far closer to what I’ve imagined them to be in the fluff...the handpicked super-elite of a melee chapter. 

 

Does Death on the Wind mean D:1 weapons are now D:2? Or just anything that is D:D3 counts Damage rolls of 1 as 2 instead?

Considering the only melee weapons on SG are d3 weapons, I'd imagine that would be the case that damage rolls of 1 are 2. RAW it could mean that just using regular fist attacks are flat 2 damage?

[Panzer]

I am really hoping that some Strategems are tests for future data sheets. Sang Guard with Fly and 2+ and -1 To Hit in melee is far closer to what I’ve imagined them to be in the fluff...the handpicked super-elite of a melee chapter. 

 

Does Death on the Wind mean D:1 weapons are now D:2? Or just anything that is D:D3 counts Damage rolls of 1 as 2 instead?

 

It literally means they deal 2 damage now. No rolling no interpreting no nothing. Just flat 2 instead of 1d3.

[keeblerartillery]

 

 

I am really hoping that some Strategems are tests for future data sheets. Sang Guard with Fly and 2+ and -1 To Hit in melee is far closer to what I’ve imagined them to be in the fluff...the handpicked super-elite of a melee chapter.

 

Does Death on the Wind mean D:1 weapons are now D:2? Or just anything that is D:D3 counts Damage rolls of 1 as 2 instead?

It literally means they deal 2 damage now. No rolling no interpreting no nothing. Just flat 2 instead of 1d3.

Incorrect. It states rolls of one counts as 2. Its essential 2-3 dmg instead of d3

[Panzer]

 

 

I am really hoping that some Strategems are tests for future data sheets. Sang Guard with Fly and 2+ and -1 To Hit in melee is far closer to what I’ve imagined them to be in the fluff...the handpicked super-elite of a melee chapter.

 

Does Death on the Wind mean D:1 weapons are now D:2? Or just anything that is D:D3 counts Damage rolls of 1 as 2 instead?

It literally means they deal 2 damage now. No rolling no interpreting no nothing. Just flat 2 instead of 1d3.

Incorrect. It states rolls of one counts as 2. Its essential 2-3 dmg instead of d3

 

 

Just double-checked, you're right. Makes it much better. ^^

[Indefragable]

Didn’t have it in front of me, so I was curious about pistols, but the opening line is “Use in the Fight phase” so there you go. It’s solid: all the benefit of D3 without the downside. 

[Quixus]

I am kind of out of the loop with a ll the rules changes/additions. Where can I find those new rules?

[Panzer]

I am kind of out of the loop with a ll the rules changes/additions. Where can I find those new rules?

 

In the new supplement called Blood of Baal. ;) 

[Brother Cruoris]

Have anyone tried out the Sanguinary Guard in the new edition?

 

Is it best to go with multiple MSU consisting of 4 Sanguinary guard or do you take that 1 extra to make them 5 but bump up their PL quite a lot?

Maybe PL isn't a factor for reservs anymore in 9th? Haven´t had the chance to check that myself yet.

 

Or is it still viable to take them in bigger squads (8+) considering the new blast rule? 

Maybe they will be better in a big squad when/if the get on extra wound when the codex/supplement drops?

[Vermintide]

I think we really do have to wait and see if they get that extra wound or not, and how it affects their points.

 

My guy feeling is that at 2W Death Company will be more appealing, what made SG successful in the latter days of 8th was taking them in numbers with that 5+++ banner buff and having a Priest in tow, giving them more durability over Death Company. 2W will definitely give them more comparable durability and chance to make use of their built in 6+++.

[dice4thedicegod]

Not just 2wounds, but also the extra -1 ap on chainswords. One of the sanguinary guards high points was that they were the go to against well armored targets.

[Indefragable]

The drawbacks to Sang Guard are there vulnerability to plasma/et al with no native invuln and there relatively low # of attacks (“only” 2A each base. They also were pricey for what you got. Over the course of 8th, between the various supplements, rule changes (Shock Assault, Savage Echoes), and points decreases, they only got better and better.

 

Vulnerable to plasma? Standard of Sacrifice.

Low attacks? Shock Assault + Savage Echoes + Sanguinor + Unleash Rage etc...

 

They were basically able to do what DC traditionally did (but load of attacks) yet also bring the survivability of 2W/2+/5+++ (banner).

 

Should DC get that 2W and SG not, then I definitely think we’ll see their use wane...never disappear, but lessen for sure. SG are dangerously close to being nerfed since BA in tournaments these days means slam 3x8 SG units or such (not super fluffy).

 

I hope DC gain some more viability via 2W and AP-1 Chainswords, but I also hope SG get a 3rd wound (and my perennial wish of a native invuln), but are costed appropriately. It’s irked me how SG have been the go-to unit for so much of 8th...they are supposed to be a rarely-seen super elite* and instead they’ve become so commonplace. Just my gripe.

 

*the irony of that in 40k is not lost on me

 

 

My own wishlist:

Hidden Content

 

I’m sure folks here are sick of me bringing this up, but I would love to see Sang Guard as awesome defensive dudes while DC are the rip n’ fear fellas. There’s some short stories about how Azkaellon (the Commander of the Sang Guard during Sanguinius’ time) was a super defensive swordsman: he was nearly impossible to land a blow on, but he sacrificed offensive power as a result. Amit, Capt of the 5th Company, nicknamed the Flesh Tearer, was his foil going all out on offense yet simply weathering blows rather than bothering to defend against them.

 

I would love to see this legacy trickle down to our current units. I’ll post about the actual crunch of it some other time.

 

[Charlo]

Time will tell, regarding points or any potential weapon changes (their iconic weapons are still really weird compared to fists...) but if they get the extra wound, they'll be in a killer place for sure.

 

I think their shooting is also low-key very powerful. A few hidden Inferno Pistols can go a long way in the turn after the deep strike.

[Thoridon]

Inferno pistols are fairly cheap to add at the new price too. I have a few SG modeled with those as they can add a nice extra bit of oomph against a monster type thingy when jumping in close before a charge.

 

If they don't go to 3W it'll all depend on how their points are vs DC/VV after points adjustments, and how encarmine blades get changed.

[Quixus]

Inferno pistols are fairly cheap to add at the new price too. I have a few SG modeled with those as they can add a nice extra bit of oomph against a monster type thingy when jumping in close before a charge.

AFB right now, but aren't Inferno and plasma pistols the same price right now? Does the extra range really make the plasma pistols viable? You lose 2S (unless you are willing to sacrifice a marine and it is still 1 S then) and quite a bit of damage 1 or 2 vs d6 or d6+2. But yeah 6" is pretty short.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Quixus

[Blindhamster]

I'd honestly like to see Sanguinary guard get an overhaul in the supplement, make them a proper bodyguard unit as that is literally their role in the chapter. Make them 3 wounds each, but max unit size of 5, give them WS 2+ and the bodyguard rule so they can take hits for a character. Make their weapons be comparable to MC weapons or relic blades.

As it stands, i don't use firstborn stuff anymore anyway, but i think with two wounds i'd usually pick deathcompany over sanguinary guard if i could, due to numbers and cost in points.

[Thoridon]

I put the new numbers into my spreadsheet to see how Sanguinary Guard would look in 9th. This set of numbers assumes they charge (to trigger red thirst and shock assault) but does not factor in assault doctrine or any auras/buffs.

 

 

When looked at as a standalone unit, swords are the real winners for me with the stat changes. They're by far the most efficient against a marine statline and hold their own against the fist in points efficiency when it comes to the tougher targets. With the extra strength added to the encarmine blades the axe doesn't really have a standout category now, as S6 is only going to make a difference against T6 targets compared to S5. It's irrelevant against Guard statlines as the sword already wounds on 2s on the charge. The fist does still have the highest punch across T6 - T8 combined but an extra 5 points per model adds up, and I'd say it's only really T7 where they seem a step ahead.

 

Swords for all-purpose, Fists for vehicle hunting?

 

* Note: This also doesn't factor in invul saves, which would make the axe numbers less inferior.

[Thoridon]

These were the 8th Ed. numbers for comparison:

 

 

Fists stood out a lot more before with the points efficiency. Overall SG melee damage has gone up nicely in comparison to the minor points increase (for encarmine blades especially).

 

Also note that the scales on the 8th charts are different as they did less damage then.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Thoridon

[Spagunk]

Having +1 str on swords actually mean a lot for BA since it gets you that 2+ to wound that helps drive in more damage. Furthermore, having 2 damage base also really helps out, I feel since that still means you're able to kill 1 marine for each wound that goes through. And your chart really shows that.

 

Too bad there were two editions where the axe or fist were better meaning you'll have to pull apart figures to match the new data.

[Blindhamster]

Having +1 str on swords actually mean a lot for BA since it gets you that 2+ to wound that helps drive in more damage. Furthermore, having 2 damage base also really helps out, I feel since that still means you're able to kill 1 marine for each wound that goes through. And your chart really shows that.

 

Too bad there were two editions where the axe or fist were better meaning you'll have to pull apart figures to match the new data.

I always had mine built with swords because swords look better :D

[Jolemai]

Thanks for posting, Thoridon 

[Thoridon]

I'll be making my way through the changes and doing some comparisons, plus combinations with the new character buffs/auras, but so far SG are looking really good for us.

 

I realised a SG model and DC with jump pack are the same points with each of sword, axe and fist. Both get 4 attacks on the charge. The damage output as a base model is identical with the power fist. The difference with the swords/axes? SG versions get the 2 damage while DC get 1, for the same points cost. That extra attack is really good.

 

SG then get an extra edge when accompanied by a warlord, thanks to the new Heirs trait.

[Xenith]

Curious about the chart for T5 3+ saves, we're quite likely to see a lot more gravis on the board this edition. How about 2+ 4++ for vanvets and bladeguard?

[Thoridon]

Here you go :)

 

 

I added T4 2+ 4++ xW and T5 3+ xW. I also adapted the T4 4+ xW to become T4 3+ xW for the new marines (it was based on a tyranid warrior before).

[Quixus]

Too bad there were two editions where the axe or fist were better meaning you'll have to pull apart figures to match the new data.

Magnets!

 

Or gentleman's agreement, everything that isn't a power fist is a sword.

 

[Thoridon]

I do wish we just had encarmine blades instead of swords and axes having different stats but it’s not the end of the world :) They’re close enough on most targets to not matter too much in friendly games, and for tournaments min-maxing for the absolute optimal setup is nothing new.

 

I have a spare box I haven’t built yet, which may now be extra swords for their overall consistency. They were going to be fists in 8th.