++ Black Tide ++

[Marshal_Roujakis]

A quick video regarding Black Templars Black Tide...

not me btw, just saw this on my Facebook feed and he has some good inputs in regards to using Templars for melee...

 

He didn't play against any decimating Tau/Eldar/Guard list, but he did use his army optimally... so I'd say he's earned his merits...

 

 

Templar Black Tide

[4ndroid]

great Bat-Rep thanks for the insights into your BT Black Tide list! 

 

I'll report back with my results soon

[Ray_K]

Good to see The Black Tide alive and well! Though the attrition rate of your crusade is why we have 10,000 battle brothers scattered throughout the Galaxy. I'd hate to see what your impact is on the yearly imperial military budget

[Brother Talarian]

Well done brother Mordian!

What lists did you run? How did you run your tide squads? 5/5?

 

I’ve often toyed with the idea of MSU marines/tide to min max power weps and field 100, seems bad ass.

 

How did you run your squads, with a mix with which weapons?

 

Your shooty marines use las? Melta? HB?

 

Details brother... detailsss :)

Very inspired.

[Dark_Jober]

Really interesting.

 

I'm starting to play 40k now in 8th edition but collecting for years... so I have many many chainbros and bolterbros, unfortunately I'm playing the opposite style: Using Devs, Intercessors, Scouts and a Predator (1k). But I'm really interested in running some Black Tide lists... I will be really happy if I have to assemble more chainbros, i love Initiates, so I don't care buying and assembling more brothers.

 

I'm really interested in the unit composition, Neo-Initiate rate and equipment.

I think I listened it was 5/5 so I suppose Crusader Squads with SB+4Initiates+5Neos. I suppose BP+CCW, but I'm not sure about the equipment.

Many people talk about using Power Swords, but many times when I was fighting with PSword I really needed PowerFists... and I think he talked about Power Axes.

 

In the other hand the shooty squads... Were they crusader squads? What was the Init-neo rate and equipment?

If they were crusaders... maybe the Neos were equipped with boltgun...

 

Thoughts?

[4ndroid]

I’m currently testing

Choppy Bros

SB powersword plasma pistol

Initiate with powersword bolt pistol,

3x Initiates with chainsword and bolt pistol.

5x Neo with Boltgun

 

I’m wondering if I should swap the Neo’s Boltguns with shotguns to advance and shoot, or make them close combat with knives instead of shooty cannon fodder?

 

Shooty Bros

SB powersword CombiGrav

Ini Heavy Gravcannon

Ini Special Gravgun

2x Ini with boltguns

5x Neo Boltguns

 

Powerswords are a must take in my opinion, I faced some BA Bikers and the AP0 Chainswords kept bouncing off the bikers when a AP-3 Powersword would have removed at least one biker per CC round

[Medjugorje]

In Fungames its okay but i tried it versus tournament lists. Its just ...

 

dont want to talk about. Its like to go with a knife into a shoot-out.

[allegedlynerdy]

I've had good luck against tournament lists. It isn't the best, but it works very well in comparison to most marine lists, and is one of the only marine options I know which isn't Imperial soup or Guilliman based which works at all.

 

Most Anti-Horde weaponry isn't designed to be used against 3+ save infantry. Mathhammering it out, let's say a punisher cannon equivalent. No AP, hitting on 4's. 20 shots, 10 hit on average. S5 to marine T4 so 2/3 wound, 7 on average. AP 0, so 2/3 saves, 1/3 unsaved, 2 lost on average.

 

Compare that to GEQ, you'd get the same # of hits and wounds, but due to the 5+ save you'd lose 2/3, or 5 models.

[Panzer]

Losing 2 Marines still hurts more than losing 5 horde models tho.

[allegedlynerdy]

Losing 2 Marines still hurts more than losing 5 horde models tho.

Most hordes run about 200, you're running 100 marines, it's numerically similar in loss.

[Panzer]

 

Losing 2 Marines still hurts more than losing 5 horde models tho.

Most hordes run about 200, you're running 100 marines, it's numerically similar in loss.

 

 

Unfortunately that's not how things work tho. You lose 5 Cultists, you lose 20p. You lose 2 Tactical Marines, you lose 26p. Even worse if the Marines aren't just basic Marines but rather have some special weapon or are veterans or whatever (who all are just as easily killed unless they're wearing Terminator armor).

100 Tacticals is 1300p of models. 200 Cultists is 800p of models. So it's more like 300+ horde vs 100 Marines. If they run less it just means they have more points for actual heavy hitting stuff the Marine player would be missing.

[Dosjetka]

If you want to use Cultists in your comparison, you have to take into account their worse save (6+): you'd be losing 5.8 Cultists and that's worth 23.3 points. The gap is narrower than you claim.

Also, worse Ld on Cultists means potentially a lot more casualties due to Morale which narrows the gap even more.

 

Marines are definitely more expensive but they're also a lot more durable.

 

Last but not least, arguing that Cultists are a better choice than Initiates is irrelevant because the former are not an option for Black Templar armies.

 

Edit: Clarity.

[Medjugorje]

But you can see how bad initiates are...

[Panzer]

If you want to use Cultists in your comparison, you have to take into account their worse save (6+): you'd be losing 5.8 Cultists and that's worth 23.3 points. The gap is narrower than you claim.

Also, worse Ld on Cultists means potentially a lot more casualties due to Morale which narrows the gap even more.

Marines are definitely more expensive but they're also a lot more durable.

Last but not least, arguing that Cultists are a better choice than Initiates is irrelevant because the former are not an option for Black Templar armies.

Edit: Clarity.

The argument I replied to was hordes vs Marines tho, so I simply took the most generic Horde unit I could think of.

Tho admitedly he said GEQ with 5+ save, so lets say Conscripts or AM Infantry Squads...which cost only 4ppm as well.

 

The gap is exactly what I claim, hence why horde armies are so strong compared to Marines currently and why horde Marines aren't a particularly good idea. ;)

[Dosjetka]

I agree that Marines (in the BT context) aren't the most efficient horde army out there (Guard, Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids all do it better) but it is still a viable choice if you use the right army composition, combos, and tactics. You might not win any tournaments but you won't come rock bottom either.

[ONDIG]

Im more of a mind to take 2-3 maxed Crusader squads equipped w/ basic gear.No upgrades.granted this is around 720 pts but as noted earlier the Marine save can make this squad a tuffnut to crack.20 bolters at rng.Meh.20 bolters rapid fire or overwatch?now we're talkin! Though not fantastic these squads can take up alot of the table

1.denying deepstrike

2.serving as a screen for enemy movement

Just dont forget to bring a Banner!

[Dark_Jober]

Sometimes I think about trying to run some hordes, but I have few games, and I'm not specially skilled in this game, so I usually think I can be wrong and I accept I'm not good building lists... so I'm going to share some thoughts and calculations.

 

Shooty horde

• A maxed Crusader Squad is 240p cost (13px10 brothers + 11px10 neos) 20 bodies and 20 wounds. If they all are Bolterbro and BolterNeo then 20bolters
  • >12" = 20 F4 AP-
  • <= 12" = 40 F4 AP-
  • 10 Sv3+ 10 Sv4+
  • 21A (SB+9Ini+10Neo)
• If you buy a maxed Intercessor Squad it cost 180p, 10bodies 20 wounds. and 10 BoltRifle. Now, I want to match the total cost so I can buy a Scout squad and Stormbolter in the Sargeant (55p+2=57p) so 237p or a Crusader Squad with BoltBro and SwordBro with StormBolter (67p) 247p. And you have 10BoltRifles, 4Bolters, and 1Stormbolter. 15 bodies and 25 wounds... With this configuration you get
  • >12" = 10 F4 AP1 + 6 F4 AP0 
  • <=12" = 20 F4 AP1 + 12 F4 AP0
  • 10 Sv3+ (2W) + 5Vs4+||5Sv3+
  • 11A (Intercessors) + 11A (Scouts or Crusaders)

Of course, Primaris are weaker against multiwound weapons, and the Intercessor Squad doesn't allow to select who die (Initiate or Neo), but IMO Intercerssor Squad is not bad on the paper

 

 

Similar is the case of Choppy Horde.

• A maxed Crusader Squad is 240p cost (13px10 brothers + 11px10 neos) for 20 bodies and 20 wounds. If they all are ChoppyBro and Choppy Neo
  • 41A F4 AP-
  • 10 Sv3+ 10 Sv4+, each failed save roll -2A
• If you buy a maxed Reiver Squad (CCW+Pistol) it cost 180p, 10bodies 20 wounds.  If I buy a Scout Squad (55p) with CCW or a Crusader Squad with CCW (65p) 15 bodies and 25 wounds
  • 45A F4 AP- 
  • 10 Sv3+ (2W) 5Sv4+||5Sv3+, each failed save roll is (-3A Reiver or -2A any other)

In this case is true that Crusader Squad is more Interesting because it is a Troop option and can hold objetives better, Reiver Squad suffers more from multiwound weapons, can't be equipped with Power Weapons (at this moment...) but has Terror Troops rules (-1L).

So in this case... I think Choppy Horde based in Crusader Squads are better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Great thread.

[Mordian Glory]

Its great to see people are watching my video and discussing it!

 

The load out I used for each squad was quite varied, this was for fluffy reasons, to keep it fun whilst building each unit and also to give the army redundancy in case some options get better or worse with rules/edition changes.

 

To answer a few questions, the army is made up of 10x 10 man squads, 1 Capt, 1 Lt, 1 EC, 2 Chaplains and 3 cenobytes.

 

6x squads are Choppy Squads, they have 1 sword brother, 4 initiates and 5 Neos. I used this ratio (5/5) because these squads will be in the enemies face and will be taking lots of casualties, so its best to have a bit more cannon fodder.  The sword brother always gets a power weapon and a combi weapon (melta or plasma). 1 Initiate gets a power weapon and 1 gets a special weapon (normally plasma or melta). I have no preference on which power weapons are used, as long as they are both the same (e.g. 2 x power swords). I like these squads to have a bit of fire power so they can soften up their targets before charging in. 

 

4x Squads are Shooty Squads, they have 1 sword brother, 6-7 initiates and 2-3 neophytes. I have less neos in these squads as they are designed to dig into mid field cover and I want to have more 2+ saves in the unit to make them tougher to get out of cover. I use combi weapon on the sgt (grav or plasma) and have a plasma gun in every squad. I also have a heavy bolter in each unit because often they will be moving so it is best to have more shots to have a better chance of hitting. 

 

For deployment, I run 3 blobs. 2 choppy blobs of 30 marines led by a chaplain and a cenobyte. 1 shooty blob of 40 marines with Captian and Lt. 

 

Hopefully this answers most questions :)

[Medjugorje]

The problem in this topic: I think that all fun-games are not a good thing to assess the power of any unit.

You always have to look on tounament-games or very competitive gameplay.

 

(beside the fact that I love your channel ;) )

[Brother Talarian]

That’s the thing though, this game is supposed to be fun, and not all environments are hyper competitive. I think for a fun, all-comers list/game this sounds fantastic. Fluffy and can win games.

 

Tournament games aren’t necessarily fun because you tend to face off against spammy lists etc.

[Panzer]

The thing tho is that "fun" is a very subjective matter. There are more than enough people who have more fun with competetive and properly balanced lists and really don't like taking unoptimized things. Fun is neither casual nor competetive. Fun is a subjective and personal thing.

[Mordian Glory]

My two cents on the fun vs competitive debate, this list is a solid middle tier. It is not going to win against some of the crazy lists out there but it can comfortably hold its own and even win against most middle tier armies.

 

I do plan on taking it to a tournament when it is fully painted, just to see how it does :)

[Firepower]

I approve.

[arigatous]

 

100 Tacticals is 1300p of models. 200 Cultists is 800p of models. So it's more like 300+ horde vs 100 Marines. If they run less it just means they have more points for actual heavy hitting stuff the Marine player would be missing.

 

 

300+ horde doesn't work in tournaments because of the time limit. Horde armies become stronger turn by turn, the idea is to be able to play to the very end of the game. That is why while statistically weaker 100+ tacticals could actually be better for the horde tournament list than 300+ cultists.