Wolfsbane HH49

[DarkChaplain]

I've got to be honest, this general sentiment online has contributed to me not wanting to write reviews the past 6 months. There are a few other factors, of course, but even just pre-release discussions after a title gets announced are so full of cynicism that I notice myself being more defensive in reviews than I want to be, while also having my own gripes to articulate in a sensible way that doesn't go into either extreme. I've found that participating rather regularly in discussions here has soured my enjoyment of the works a good deal the past years. Having to argue character development and nuance against people who base their opinions entirely on cliffnotes on the action is stressful.

 

Since this rambling is not precisely on point, though concerns Wolfsbane as well, I'll put it in spoiler tags. I just had to vent my frustrations with this general tone of discourse lately, and Wolfsbane's thread(s) epitomize a bunch of the issues.

 

None of the BL books I've read over the past years (since the early AoS stuff, I guess) has been making me feel like I hate every chapter more than the last, the way that, say, Star Wars: Aftermath / Life Debt did. LD was one novel I enjoyed tearing apart (it is truly dreadful and showcases a lot of what's wrong with Disney's Star Wars and forcing contemporary political nonsense into my lasersword space fantasy, so I stand by it), but I don't enjoy tearing apart books at the end of the day. I want them to be compelling and worth my time and try to recognize the author's intent, the little tidbits that show their passion for the subject and try to relate how tough situations may be to figure out especially in tie-in fiction.

 

Guy Haley's not to blame for Russ heading out to confront Horus, or for the lack of screentime Lupercal and his Legion had since Vengeful Spirit and Galaxy in Flames before then. He was put into a rather difficult position having to justify all that stuff that people were frowning upon years ago already when Vengeful Spirit released just before we had a quiet year mid-Imperium Secundus due to GW/BL shifts in policy and staff. That's basically when I felt the discontent outgrowing people's excitement for the first major time online, around book 30. Not only was The Unremembered Empire underwhelming in many ways, but Horus's first big outing since the early days had a few problems and jumped too far into the timeline for where the series was, leaving characters dangling - and then suddenly the series ground to a halt around the oft-maligned Deathfire.

 

Many things that are playing out with more recent entries, things that folks dislike, appear to originate in that rough timeframe - from Shadrak Meduson trying to strike at Horus in Vengeful Spirit over Russ sending Loken and co to mark the way, to the Imperium Secundus arc or Vulkan's trilogy - where a LOT of things at BL were turning in weird directions. That was the timeframe I almost quit reading their output altogether, due to the excessive amount of marketing short stories that were being produced. We had The Honoured and The Unburdened come out as the only books that are unlikely to be collected as a numbered entry in the series, just to tie into the HH boxed game! They were commissioning short stories with the primary purpose to market a specific model kit. A bunch of authors grumbled over those times in the past, and it appears that the restrictive nature of BL/GW at the time was also what turned Abnett away for years.

 

The problem is, those questionable decisions in the series that may or may not have spawned from there, like Imperium Secundus? They're part of the series now. They may not be well liked and being groaned over, but they have to be resolved in the series. They're part of the official background now, and no matter if ForgeWorld comes along later with the Black Books and turns them into something more in tune with the scale of the civil war, we're stuck with it.

 

We're stuck with Horus getting back to Terra and leaving again. We're stuck with Clan Raukaan as a Codex Supplement and David Guymer having to reconcile old Index Astartes fluff and Clan Raukaan in his Iron Hands trilogy. We're stuck with Primaris and Cawl, for better or worse. And frankly, I have huge respect for the authors handling such herculean tasks. I'm always amazed when something as stupid as the Wardian Mortarion vs Kaldor Draigo fluff gets turned into something actually exciting and clever like Laurie Goulding's Mortarion's Heart. At this point I don't care that Russ made a horrible call leaving Terra, or that he got there to begin with. I want to see it resolved in a satisfying fashion first and foremost. I don't care if they're adding Cawl to the Heresy series this late in the game, as long as his sections are interesting in one way or another, though I do care if they relate badly to the rest of the book.

 

 

What I also don't care about is whether you are going to read or buy a book you are dead-set on despising without having read a single page of it, by the way. If all you want to do here is confirm your own biases against a faction, author, character, event, whatever and have to consistently rub it into the discussion without even having read it in the first place, then I can just recommend trolling elsewhere. It reminds me far too much of commenters on, say, BoLS, who keep claiming the series is going to last til book 100 and we'll never reach Terra or get anywhere when they haven't picked up a book since Battle for the Abyss. If you want to bask in your own ignorance and just badmouth the series or authors, go ahead, but maybe a certain imageboard or reddit are a more suitable outlet for it.

 

I think pretty much everybody will agree that, at least to a degree, Russ and his Rune Priests are hypocrites, that the Emperor made many mistakes, that Clan Raukaan was a terrible supplement, that Imperium Secundus had severe pacing problems and a lot more. But we don't have to regurgitate the same talking points over and over and over, let alone use them to tear down a book that, in its own way, has plenty of potential to be compelling to read, even if in the end things don't quite match up with our hopes for it

 

I very much agree with Roomsky on taking a step back and looking at the work as is and figuring out what the author's intent may have been rather than forcing one's own biases onto it regardless of what it is. Sometimes the problem is quite obviously in the marketing and title (like Prospero Burns, where the blurb and title, even cover were announced at least a year before release while Abnett went through some life-changing events that shifted his perspective for the book), but more often than not, it's a disconnect between the reader's expectations and the author's vision.

 

That being said, I still hate what Rian Johnson did to The Last Jedi in his artsy way of forcefully trying to subvert fan expectations, and I still wanted more hippo western in my hippo western novellas. Being biased and having certain expectations is totally fine in my opinion, and it informs a lot of our decisions on which books we want to read in the first place. But constantly beating a dead horse in a rather unconstructive way for a dozen pages? That's just tiresome.

 

[b1soul]

If Horus can get surprised by Russ with the Emperor's Spear...then I don't think he's ready for the Emperor

 

This silly plotline does no one any favours...not Russ, not Horus

 

I like Haley, it's not his fault.

 

Ever since VS, I've been groaning at Russ' departure from Terra to 1v1 Chaos Horus

[bluntblade]

I do find it a bit odd that they didn't fold that strand into the Titandeath. Then Russ could have taken on Mortarion or Perturabo - although that might be dangerously close to mimicking Betrayer as a preamble to him facing Horus - or at least wreck some daemonic face on his way to trying to isolate Horus and hit him with his elites in tow. Plus we'd get a view of Russ as a general and more of a chance to see Horus being the Warmaster.

 

Oh, and if Mortarion was there it'd be cool to see this brilliant field commander doing his thing in the vanguard, smoothing the way for Horus to land with the main force. Then Russ can be reluctantly holding back, waiting for the chance to attack Horus instead of the Reaper.

[Roomsky]

Why DC, bringing The Last Jedi in after mentioning my comment, why ever might you have done that? http://static.cdprojektred.com/forums/emoticons/smiling.png

 

In all seriousness, while the perspective I mentioned is important, and while I admit I often come across as overly-caustic in my own reviews, I do stand by my points against this novel. Again, I don't think Haley did a (n overall) bad job by any means, but he strips out far to much of what made me like the characters featured for my own tastes. Hey, I never claimed I was being particularly objective. 

 

Indeed, the amount of bile being spat by those who've yet to even skim the book is disconcerting (and, for the record, adds literally nothing of value to the discussion), but I think the good Marshal Loss makes a myriad of good points. Books need to stand on their own as much as satisfy the series, and when we don't even have past books to lean on when it comes to Horus and Russ` relationship, I can't help but feel Haley dropped the ball a bit in that regard.

[bluntblade]

I don't think you've ever seemed caustic to me.

[Roomsky]

I don't think you've ever seemed caustic to me.

 

It may be some lingering guilt for the utter thrashing I gave Ruinstorm. I listened to it again recently, and I was actually quite impressed. Not even close to perfect, but my want for a more drawn out, relaxed narrative like in Pythos blinded me to Annandale's virtues as an author.

 

It's a thing I generally struggle with in my review style, the things that come to mind are generally the standout moments that clash with my overall feelings. From that I've given Old Earth a seemingly quite positive review, while in reality I was just stunned at Kyme's improvement over past works, and Black Legion and Wolfsbane got somewhat scathing reviews. I make some blanket statements about overall quality, sure, but one might never know I finished both of those books in a roughly 3-day span.

 

Basically, Wolfsbane is a book of many virtues. I think people are right to acknowledge its many (many) problems, but too often we skim over the virtues which ride hand-in-hand with those flaws. It's a good read, and worth collecting. Honestly I feel bad for those who dismiss it out of hand because a few plot points don't jive.

 

Then again, I ditched my copy of Outcast Dead because I couldn't get over the most egregious continuity error I've ever read, so perhaps I'm not one to talk.

[b1soul]

Yes...without an extremely strong Horus-Russ bromance set-up, Russ' reluctance undermines his core value of "I do what needs to be done with absolute loyalty to the Emperor". That set-up was critical but not established sufficiently in Wolfsbane or other works.

 

What we got was...Russ threw away victory for a brother whose bond with him was questionable at best

[mc warhammer]

i find the primarch relationship set ups a weak spot of the series in general. fulgrim and ferrus? horus and sanguinius? alpharius/omegon and dorn? russ and horus?

 

for an epic that seems to be as much about failed relationships as it is about war, not really feeling any of those.

 

for me, the khan and horus has worked best.

 

a lot of it has been up to the reader generously filling in blanks.

[bluntblade]

Yeah, I agree there.

[Manchu warlord]

I just got the book, and will read it shortly.

 

 

Mr. Roomsky, so, Perturabo features in Wolfsbane :teehee:?

 

 

Sometimes you worry me, Manchu.

Mr. Roomsky, I can't wait to read about Perturabo's moments.

[b1soul]

The Khan and Horus relationship was plausible in that the Khan was a loner and Horus had the highest social intelligence out of all the primarchs...so it's believable that he would be on friendly terms with the Khan.

 

I don't think Wraight was trying to make Khan-Horus out to be something as close as Ferrus-Fulgrim...more like Horus was one of his few friends and the Khan didn't feel close to the Emperor at all.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, i’m not saying that i was lifted onto a cloud during the horus/khan scene...just that it worked when many others didn’t. it’s not about the love necessarily....even fulgrim and perturabo’s antogonistic one fell flat for me

[DogWelder]

The thing about the Ultramarines being 'mostly intact' and Ultramar still being a strong base of power threw me off too. Especially since The battle of Calth alone killed/crippled about 150,000 Ultramarines and destroyed 3/4th of the Ultramarine fleet. With a further 20-30,000 killed during the ensuing Shadow Crusade.

 

Then again, going back and reading the Ultramarine-centered short stories set during the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance, Censure, Red-Marked, Stratagem etc.) and considering the almost 5-7 yr time gap between the end of the Shadow Crusade and Wolfsbane...it sort of makes sense. In a very loose way.

 

You have to remember that only about 100 of the 500 worlds of Ultramar were destroyed by the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance). Then take into account that the worlds destroyed, with the exception of Calth and Armatura, were mostly outlying/border worlds like Nuceria and Zepath (Angels of Caliban) whose destruction, while causing an extreme loss of life, did not seriously damage the infrastructure of the interstellar state as a whole.

 

Kor Phaeron did plan to destroy the core planets of Ultramar like Konor and Macragge with a small fleet of WB vessels backed up by a Abyss-class super battleship, thus crippling the star empire for good. However the Abyss-class vessel was destroyed by a small force of Ultramarine and Space Wolf infiltrators (Battle for the Abyss) and as such, the remaining fleet assaulting the coreward systems were destroyed by Guilliman and his reinforced fleet when he returned from Nuceria (Unremembered Empire).

 

Then you have to consider that the Ultramarines had a period of mass-recruiting during the 7 year gap where they were pressing every youth in their military academies into the Astartes trials in order to reinforce themselves as quickly as they could (Heart of the Pharos and Censure). Not to mention they were salvaging vessels that the Word Bearers left behind during their hasty retreat at Calth as well as pressing as many civilian ships into service as well (HH: Tempest).

 

With all these factors taken into account, it would mean that there are about 100,000 Ultramarines and about 1/2 their original fleet strength heading to Terra. Which is still way more than any other Loyalist Legion had toward the end of the Heresy.

 

Still kind of a stretch the way it is described in Wolfsbane but at least its not completely implausible.

[carlisimo]

Wasn’t Armatura (in Betrayer) a core world? But I’d take it to mean that the rest of the Imperium was so badly damaged that half an Ultramar was still better than what the loyalists had elsewhere.

 

Does Wolfsbane address the line in Ruinstorm about the Ultramarines’ fleet being the largest? I would’ve expected the Imperial Fists’ fleet to be larger despite losing 20-25% of their total fleet at Phall (2/3 of 1/3).

[DogWelder]

Wasn’t Armatura (in Betrayer) a core world? But I’d take it to mean that the rest of the Imperium was so badly damaged that half an Ultramar was still better than what the loyalists had elsewhere.

 

Does Wolfsbane address the line in Ruinstorm about the Ultramarines’ fleet being the largest? I would’ve expected the Imperial Fists’ fleet to be larger despite losing 20-25% of their total fleet at Phall (2/3 of 1/3).

 

Yes, which is why I said that it, along with Calth, was an exception.

 

Personally I think the 'largest fleet' thing is in terms of pure numbers. Not necessarily offensive capability or tonnage. The Ultramarines were pressing every civilian ship they got their hands on into military service during those 7 years. Not to mention that Konor is said to have a massive shipbuilding capacity as well as it was a shipyard from the Dark Age of Technology that was given to Guiliman before the arrival of the Emperor (Unremembered Empire). Since that planet was successfully defended during the Shadow Crusade as mentioned earlier, it could also have been instrumental in providing new ships or hurriedly refitting retired ships.

 

There's also the fact that the Word Bearers intentionally avoided destroying the larger Ultramarine vessels at Calth (Know No Fear) as they wanted to capture them to replace their losses instead. However when they had to retreat they had no choice but to abort their boarding actions. This may be why a lot of the Battle Barges and Battleships named in Know No Fear reappear in Ruinstorm.

[Marshal Loss]

We already know that the 'largest fleet' quote has to be based on numbers rather than tonnage. The Ultramarines never had a powerful fleet.

 

 

 

The main body of the Legion's void craft fleet was then made up of mid-scaled cruisers and smaller battle barges of various classes, along with substantial numbers of lighter pattern purpose-built strike cruisers, frigates and fast patrol cutters, all which could be produced by the shipyards of worlds across Ultramar. Although this fleet structure did allow the Legion a great deal of flexibility and range in how it deployed its many Space Marine chapters, its combined overall tonnage and firepower ranked the Ultramarines fleet in the mid-tier of the Legions, considerably behind the Imperial Fists, for example, in terms of tonnage and destructive power, and behind the Death Guard in terms of number of heavy capital units.

 

The larger ships in KNF aren't much of a factor; the Ultramarines never had many of them to begin with. Two of the Ultramarines' Capital-Class ships hit Calth itself, and to put it into perspective, Lorgar gave 70 capital ships to Kor Phaeron and Erebus to take to Calth; the entire Ultramarines Legion never had more than 30-35.

[Nazguire]

The thing about the Ultramarines being 'mostly intact' and Ultramar still being a strong base of power threw me off too. Especially since The battle of Calth alone killed/crippled about 150,000 Ultramarines and destroyed 3/4th of the Ultramarine fleet. With a further 20-30,000 killed during the ensuing Shadow Crusade.

 

Then again, going back and reading the Ultramarine-centered short stories set during the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance, Censure, Red-Marked, Stratagem etc.) and considering the almost 5-7 yr time gap between the end of the Shadow Crusade and Wolfsbane...it sort of makes sense. In a very loose way.

 

You have to remember that only about 100 of the 500 worlds of Ultramar were destroyed by the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance). Then take into account that the worlds destroyed, with the exception of Calth and Armatura, were mostly outlying/border worlds like Nuceria and Zepath (Angels of Caliban) whose destruction, while causing an extreme loss of life, did not seriously damage the infrastructure of the interstellar state as a whole.

 

Kor Phaeron did plan to destroy the core planets of Ultramar like Konor and Macragge with a small fleet of WB vessels backed up by a Abyss-class super battleship, thus crippling the star empire for good. However the Abyss-class vessel was destroyed by a small force of Ultramarine and Space Wolf infiltrators (Battle for the Abyss) and as such, the remaining fleet assaulting the coreward systems were destroyed by Guilliman and his reinforced fleet when he returned from Nuceria (Unremembered Empire).

 

Then you have to consider that the Ultramarines had a period of mass-recruiting during the 7 year gap where they were pressing every youth in their military academies into the Astartes trials in order to reinforce themselves as quickly as they could (Heart of the Pharos and Censure). Not to mention they were salvaging vessels that the Word Bearers left behind during their hasty retreat at Calth as well as pressing as many civilian ships into service as well (HH: Tempest).

 

With all these factors taken into account, it would mean that there are about 100,000 Ultramarines and about 1/2 their original fleet strength heading to Terra. Which is still way more than any other Loyalist Legion had toward the end of the Heresy.

 

Still kind of a stretch the way it is described in Wolfsbane but at least its not completely implausible.

 

I agree with your points other than the scepticism at the scale.

 

We all know that GW has never had any clue in regards to scale and numbers, but 400 worlds working together to bolster one fighting force and navy... that is an unimaginable amount of resources being focused into one or two points.  100,000 Ultramarines?  Given that it sounds like Guiliman was doing his best to "mass produce" Space Marines, 100,000 sounds too low, if anything.

[DogWelder]

 

The thing about the Ultramarines being 'mostly intact' and Ultramar still being a strong base of power threw me off too. Especially since The battle of Calth alone killed/crippled about 150,000 Ultramarines and destroyed 3/4th of the Ultramarine fleet. With a further 20-30,000 killed during the ensuing Shadow Crusade.

 

Then again, going back and reading the Ultramarine-centered short stories set during the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance, Censure, Red-Marked, Stratagem etc.) and considering the almost 5-7 yr time gap between the end of the Shadow Crusade and Wolfsbane...it sort of makes sense. In a very loose way.

 

You have to remember that only about 100 of the 500 worlds of Ultramar were destroyed by the Shadow Crusade (Laurel of Defiance). Then take into account that the worlds destroyed, with the exception of Calth and Armatura, were mostly outlying/border worlds like Nuceria and Zepath (Angels of Caliban) whose destruction, while causing an extreme loss of life, did not seriously damage the infrastructure of the interstellar state as a whole.

 

Kor Phaeron did plan to destroy the core planets of Ultramar like Konor and Macragge with a small fleet of WB vessels backed up by a Abyss-class super battleship, thus crippling the star empire for good. However the Abyss-class vessel was destroyed by a small force of Ultramarine and Space Wolf infiltrators (Battle for the Abyss) and as such, the remaining fleet assaulting the coreward systems were destroyed by Guilliman and his reinforced fleet when he returned from Nuceria (Unremembered Empire).

 

Then you have to consider that the Ultramarines had a period of mass-recruiting during the 7 year gap where they were pressing every youth in their military academies into the Astartes trials in order to reinforce themselves as quickly as they could (Heart of the Pharos and Censure). Not to mention they were salvaging vessels that the Word Bearers left behind during their hasty retreat at Calth as well as pressing as many civilian ships into service as well (HH: Tempest).

 

With all these factors taken into account, it would mean that there are about 100,000 Ultramarines and about 1/2 their original fleet strength heading to Terra. Which is still way more than any other Loyalist Legion had toward the end of the Heresy.

 

Still kind of a stretch the way it is described in Wolfsbane but at least its not completely implausible.

 

I agree with your points other than the scepticism at the scale.

 

We all know that GW has never had any clue in regards to scale and numbers, but 400 worlds working together to bolster one fighting force and navy... that is an unimaginable amount of resources being focused into one or two points.  100,000 Ultramarines?  Given that it sounds like Guiliman was doing his best to "mass produce" Space Marines, 100,000 sounds too low, if anything.

 

 

Though you have to remember that even if those 400 worlds weren't destroyed they may have been greatly damaged. For example Astagar was successfully defended against the Word Bearers and World Eaters but much of its infrastructure was decimated and required 3-5 years of rebuilding to get back to original production levels.

[Orwell84]

We all know that GW has never had any clue in regards to scale and numbers, but 400 worlds working together to bolster one fighting force and navy... that is an unimaginable amount of resources being focused into one or two points.  100,000 Ultramarines?  Given that it sounds like Guiliman was doing his best to "mass produce" Space Marines, 100,000 sounds too low, if anything.

 

 

This x10 for the whole setting. Given the sheer scale of the galaxy and the trillions of human beings across a million-plus worlds, has any reason been stated for why the legions are so small in size, or for that matter restrict themselves to recruiting from just two worlds (Terra and the primarch's homeworld)?

 

Regarding the book itself, one interesting scene that stood out for me was Leman Russ meeting an alternate version of himself - the formal military general the Emperor intended him to be. Don't know if this was intentional by Haley, but that's a nice Easter egg - Russ' original depiction was as an Imperial Guard general who had the famous tank named for him.

[Red_Shift]

I really liked the book. I also enjoyed the Cawl sections. I have to say though, during the black library lull years I lost track of the trickle of short stories and over time my memory of events in older novels has faded so any inconsistencies I've probably missed. I enjoyed the novel for what it was. I also liked Dorn calling Russ out on being a hypocrite over his wolf priests.

[malika666]

So I'm almost at the end of the book and I'm pondering about something, what was the truth that the alternate Russ revealed about the Primarchs? Is it the same as to what Malcador seemed to have been hinting at in First Lord of the Imperium? 

[Slan Drakkos]

Alright guys, I haven't read this book and don't intend on reading it either. Can someone just spoil it for me? I'm really interested in knowing just how badly Russ loses to Horus.

[nagashnee]

Alright guys, I haven't read this book and don't intend on reading it either. Can someone just spoil it for me? I'm really interested in knowing just how badly Russ loses to Horus.

Cant think of much we have not already gone into in this thread. 

[Slan Drakkos]

 

 

 

Alright guys, I haven't read this book and don't intend on reading it either. Can someone just spoil it for me? I'm really interested in knowing just how badly Russ loses to Horus.

 

Cant think of much we have not already gone into in this thread.

call me lazy but I don't really feel like reading through 13 pages of posts. I'm American and I like my answers like I like my cheeseburgers; quick, easy, and readily available. :)

[Tymell]

In shortened form:

 

Sanguinius arrives back at Terra, updating the other Primarchs (and Malcador) as to what is going on in Ultramar, though he leaves out Imperium Secundus itself. They discuss the dying-down of the Warp turbulence and how best to combat the traitors, with Dorn pushing for a muster at Beta-Garmon to try to hold Horus until Guilliman can return. Russ disagrees, believing this will leave their forces split and/or Terra exposed. He wants to go after Horus himself, even if he can't win.

 

Russ returns to Fenris with the rest of his legion. Through the rune priests, he enters the Underverse to try to gain knowledge of Horus' weakness. He undertakes a series of challenges from a monstrous lord, who is ultimately revealed to be another version of Russ, one shaped by Terra rather than Fenris. From him, Russ gains deeper knowledge of the Primarchs and their purpose, though this enlightenment seems to torment him. He is also told he doesn't need to kill Horus, just wound him.

 

Using the markers left on the Vengeful Spirit by the Knights-Errant, Russ tracks Horus to Trisolian, a forge world (or rather, collection of stations clustered together) where Belisarius Cawl currently operates. Cawl had found a place at the side of Domina Aspertia of the Taghmata, but when Horus arrives she surrenders to him. During the chaos that breaks out after the Wolves arrive and attack, Cawl turns on the Domina, killing her and returning the Mechanicum troops there to loyalist control.

 

Russ fights his way to Horus on the Vengeful Spirit. They fight, and Russ ultimately manages to wound Horus with the Spear the Emperor gave him. This seems to temporarily break Horus' Chaos boons and bring him to his knees. Russ has the chance to kill him, but hesitates, wanting to talk his brother round, but Horus defiantly refuses and re-affirms his path to kill the Emperor and bring Chaos to the galaxy. Horus impales Russ on his talons, wounding him badly, and Horus' full power returns. The Wolves manage to save Russ from death through great sacrifice and engage in a fighting retreat, bringing him back to their fleet. The Jarls agree to meet at Yarant. Horus sends Abaddon to pursue them, while he turns to Beta-Garmon. Cawl flees on a ship stolen from the traitor Domina.