Bulwyf Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I finished this last night. It reaffirms why I love Russ and the Space Wolves. What I can't stand, at all, was half the book wasted on the most Mary Sue character in 40k history: Do It All Cawl. His half the book had zero impact or relevance to the main plot line. It felt like nothing more than "Oh hey, here's that McGuffin character in 8th edition with plot armor from HH!". Hated his entire part and if I knew his part had zero impact on the main story I would have skipped it entirely. I never skip books..ever. That should tell you how much I regard Do It All Cawl. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I'm actually enjoying the Cawl chapters so far. Not as interesting as the Rout chapters, obviously, but his origin here is handled well, and it also winds back on the ridiculous stuff from the Codex (Cawl has been alive for a couple of decades, not well over two centuries and designed Space Marines with the Emperor, as the Codex claims, for example). Cawl's ambitious but not in the climbing-the-ladder sense. He breaks with tradition even in an era where it wasn't as rigid as it will be in 40k. He cheats, he steals, he has the beginnings of a god complex. He's got one character you might regard as his friend, but even there we've got rifts and differences in their belief systems. He is a genius, but also full of it all, an arrogant prick and thinks he knows better. While so far, there's little connection between his plotline and the Rout going to Fenris, it does give us a little more Sota-Nul, who will also be part of Slaves to Darkness (and I'm curious if she'll reference Wolfsbane), more Kelbor Hal, the way the Mechanicum outside of Sol treats the news about the founding of the Adeptus Mechanicus from The Binary Succession, and prepares a few things for Titandeath. I'd say that, if it remains as split as it is, it may have been better published as a standalone novella or something like that in the near future, but frankly, I'm enjoying it enough right now that I don't mind it being here (yet) and will withhold judgement on the whole thing until finishing the novel myself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 i don’t think cawl qualifies as a “mcguffin” Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 He is ûber Macguffino Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 We've known the discovery order for quite some time now, about ~4 years or so. See below for those who were unaware. Horus Leman Russ [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Ferrus Manus Fulgrim Vulkan Rogal Dorn Roboute Guilliman Magnus the Red Sanguinius Lion El'Jonson Perturabo Mortarion Lorgar Jaghatai Khan Konrad Curze Angron Corax [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Alpharius What’s the symbolism/numerology of “9?” I find it interesting that Sanguinius is both leader of the 9th legion and the 9th (alive) Primarch re-discovered. ...or if it could just be the classic mistake of reading too much into things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I believe some people have the wrong definition of McGuffin. I'm struggling to think of a 40K story that uses one heavily, except maybe for the Vengeful Spirit and Drach'nyen in the Black Legion books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I believe some people have the wrong definition of McGuffin. I'm struggling to think of a 40K story that uses one heavily, except maybe for the Vengeful Spirit and Drach'nyen in the Black Legion books.yeah, i think macguffin is one of those hugely misinterpreted terms that has now come to mean something else to the majority than its original intention which might mean that’s the new definition. if it is, i kinda hate it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 We've known the discovery order for quite some time now, about ~4 years or so. See below for those who were unaware. Horus Leman Russ [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Ferrus Manus Fulgrim Vulkan Rogal Dorn Roboute Guilliman Magnus the Red Sanguinius Lion El'Jonson Perturabo Mortarion Lorgar Jaghatai Khan Konrad Curze Angron Corax [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Alpharius What’s the symbolism/numerology of “9?” I find it interesting that Sanguinius is both leader of the 9th legion and the 9th (alive) Primarch re-discovered. ...or if it could just be the classic mistake of reading too much into things. But he's #10 isn't he? If we're counting the unknown ones. I think the only two who match up in their discovery order and legion number are Rogal Dorn and Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Shift Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Kudos to the author, this book read really well and flowed. Enthused by all things space wolf I picked up ashes of Prospero and its like treacle compared to a fast flowing stream. I did enjoy the Cawl parts, I feel like he's character with a great deal of potential. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5107472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I'm actually enjoying the Cawl chapters so far. Not as interesting as the Rout chapters, obviously, but his origin here is handled well, and it also winds back on the ridiculous stuff from the Codex (Cawl has been alive for a couple of decades, not well over two centuries and designed Space Marines with the Emperor, as the Codex claims, for example). Cawl's ambitious but not in the climbing-the-ladder sense. He breaks with tradition even in an era where it wasn't as rigid as it will be in 40k. He cheats, he steals, he has the beginnings of a god complex. He's got one character you might regard as his friend, but even there we've got rifts and differences in their belief systems. He is a genius, but also full of it all, an arrogant prick and thinks he knows better. While so far, there's little connection between his plotline and the Rout going to Fenris, it does give us a little more Sota-Nul, who will also be part of Slaves to Darkness (and I'm curious if she'll reference Wolfsbane), more Kelbor Hal, the way the Mechanicum outside of Sol treats the news about the founding of the Adeptus Mechanicus from The Binary Succession, and prepares a few things for Titandeath. I'd say that, if it remains as split as it is, it may have been better published as a standalone novella or something like that in the near future, but frankly, I'm enjoying it enough right now that I don't mind it being here (yet) and will withhold judgement on the whole thing until finishing the novel myself. Cawl's part of the book has zero impact or meaning to the rest of the book. It is like reading two separate stories. If Cawl was not in this book it wouldn't affect the real story one iota. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Cawl's part of the book has zero impact or meaning to the rest of the book. It is like reading two separate stories. If Cawl was not in this book it wouldn't affect the real story one iota. Well, Bror Tyrfingr would have died before planting the charges on the gun batteries. Which means the Vengeful Spirit wouldn't have been hamstrung right as it was about to perform the coup d'etat. Which means Russ and the Space Wolves would have been actually exterminated. You could say Cawl's story greatly impacted not only the immediate story, but the entire setting as well. Sure, it could have been written differently to make those happen for other reasons, but you can make that case about just about any character in any story Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Cawl's part of the book has zero impact or meaning to the rest of the book. It is like reading two separate stories. If Cawl was not in this book it wouldn't affect the real story one iota. Well, Bror Tyrfingr would have died before planting the charges on the gun batteries. Which means the Vengeful Spirit wouldn't have been hamstrung right as it was about to perform the coup d'etat. Which means Russ and the Space Wolves would have been actually exterminated. You could say Cawl's story greatly impacted not only the immediate story, but the entire setting as well. Sure, it could have been written differently to make those happen for other reasons, but you can make that case about just about any character in any story That very small part of the book could have been easily written another way for the same effect. The Vengeful Spirit was also shot to hell both outside and inside so it might not have been able to hit the SW flagship before it translated out even if the charges weren't planted. Using that minor detail to justify a 40k Mary Sue character shoe horned into a HH novel getting half the chapters in a book that was supposed to be about Russ and the SW trying to kill Horus is a stretch. And that's being kind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Just for a small bit of devil's advocacy, Cawl's parts aren't quite -that- much of the book. My ebook version is about 126 pages, and 34 of those are Cawl's parts, which works out as about 27%. Now, I still agree that these parts had nothing to do with the main story, and could easily have been split off into its own thing. I would rather have seen those pages used for further development of the Space Wolves or Sons of Horus. Though I did think Cawl's parts were enjoyable, even if they felt detached from the rest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Using that minor detail to justify a 40k Mary Sue character shoe horned into a HH novel getting half the chapters in a book that was supposed to be about Russ and the SW trying to kill Horus is a stretch. And that's being kind. That bolded part I take issue with. Do I like Cawl in 40k? No. But if anything, Wolfsbane tones down the so-called "Mary Sue" aspect a bunch, as Cawl is confirmed to NOT have been chums with the Emperor, participated in the Primarchs project or the likes, didn't work on Astartes tech before etc. Cawl wins in the long run here, but only after bowing to necessity, almost screwing everything up when paying lip service to Horus Lupercal. He is shown as arrogant in his genius, a thief through and through and has basically one single friend who also thinks he's crossing the line into tech-heresy. He speaks out of turn and gets shut down by his superiors. He is late to his shift and scrapes by lobotomy just barely. He literally ends up trying to steal the cloned brain of the archdomina to make use of her centuries of knowledge. Right at the core, Cawl is a genius, a schemer and an arrogant prick. But he's not the only genius in the Mechanicum. He's not risen through the ranks, when he unveils his knowledge and skills, he is being used by his superior to further her own agenda. He manages to betray her, sure, but that's basically every hero in peril in this setting ever. Cawl's plotline provides the staging ground for the final confrontation, integrates the Martian binary problem, prepares a character for further outings, ties into a few points of the Space Wolves' assault, lays low the Mechanicum defenses that would've supported the Warmaster otherwise, and give us an on-the-ground look at Horus Lupercal in all his unholy might - something that nobody else in the book did. And come on, it isn't like other Heresy novels had relatively minor characters with their own point of view chapters, which in the end didn't contribute overly much to the Legion warfare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Forgot to mention this in my initial post on the book: Maybe it's just because I've finally got round to watching the TV series, but I kept getting such Gregory House vibes from Cawl :p With Friedisch as his put-upon Wilson. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 ........that explains so much. I was wondering why the dynamic felt so familiar. House wasn't above "borrowing" things either Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 We've known the discovery order for quite some time now, about ~4 years or so. See below for those who were unaware. Horus Leman Russ [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Ferrus Manus Fulgrim Vulkan Rogal Dorn Roboute Guilliman Magnus the Red Sanguinius Lion El'Jonson Perturabo Mortarion Lorgar Jaghatai Khan Konrad Curze Angron Corax [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Alpharius What’s the symbolism/numerology of “9?” I find it interesting that Sanguinius is both leader of the 9th legion and the 9th (alive) Primarch re-discovered. ...or if it could just be the classic mistake of reading too much into things. But he's #10 isn't he? If we're counting the unknown ones. I think the only two who match up in their discovery order and legion number are Rogal Dorn and Alpharius. 10th rediscovered overall, but 9th of the 18 that survived. Symbols-within-symbols. Or just laziness/coincidence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5108898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Love Cawl tears. They lubricate my mechadendrites ! Just finished the Audio. Guy smashed this one out of the park for sure. The Cawl side story was a great origin for the character and I'm eager to see more of his journey to justify his power & status in 40k. In the end, his only "marysue" quality is that he is very smart, but only above average and this is mostly due to his secrecy and ambition, not anything OTT. The Wolves portrayal was just perfect, especially Russ - everything he did had me fully enthralled. The battle with Horus was great too. 16 pages is a lot to go through, but what do we think the Spear showed Russ/ Horus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Love Cawl tears. They lubricate my mechadendrites ! Just finished the Audio. Guy smashed this one out of the park for sure. The Cawl side story was a great origin for the character and I'm eager to see more of his journey to justify his power & status in 40k. In the end, his only "marysue" quality is that he is very smart, but only above average and this is mostly due to his secrecy and ambition, not anything OTT. The Wolves portrayal was just perfect, especially Russ - everything he did had me fully enthralled. The battle with Horus was great too. 16 pages is a lot to go through, but what do we think the Spear showed Russ/ Horus? I think the spear showed Horus the Emperors true purpose and end result for horus and the imperium. (Horus fighting an un ending war against the warp things to save humanity) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Question: This is the same spear Ragnar threw at Magnus in the old Space Wolves stories of Bill King, right? Funny that it's getting that of an "important" role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Question: This is the same spear Ragnar threw at Magnus in the old Space Wolves stories of Bill King, right? Funny that it's getting that of an "important" role. I wondered that too. I consider King's SW stories to be the real canon of SW. If that is the same spear then what truth did that show Magnus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Question: This is the same spear Ragnar threw at Magnus in the old Space Wolves stories of Bill King, right? Funny that it's getting that of an "important" role. I wondered that too. I consider King's SW stories to be the real canon of SW. If that is the same spear then what truth did that show Magnus? there are no wolves on fenris. turns out Fenris used to be a golden age of man kind theme park with gentically engineered monsters that approximated wolves, werewolves and everything was norse themed /j- i think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Valrak Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Really enjoyed this, loved the interaction of Russ and Horus, loved the duel. Great audiobook! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Question: This is the same spear Ragnar threw at Magnus in the old Space Wolves stories of Bill King, right? Funny that it's getting that of an "important" role. I wondered that too. I consider King's SW stories to be the real canon of SW. If that is the same spear then what truth did that show Magnus? there are no wolves on fenris. turns out Fenris used to be a golden age of man kind theme park with gentically engineered monsters that approximated wolves, werewolves and everything was norse themed /j- i think I've had that thought for at least twenty years now. I've always thought Fenris was an "extreme vacation" world that was terraformed by Dark Age of Technology. It let people relive "Viking" adventures against Norse mythological monsters. When Old Night hit the "extreme vacationers" stranded on the planet didn't have much in terms of technology because it was a destination resort world where you were supposed to go "native" and use only what you could make. Over time what little advanced technology they had would break down and they devolved back to an Iron Age level of technology. It explains why Fenris population has always been severely behind in technology and why there's so many monsters there. I don't know if GW has ever said this or hinted at it but in my head this is the reason why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 FW covered Fenris very well in Inferno but kept its backstory a mystery. But the theme park idea is a quite entertaining thought. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/16/#findComment-5109887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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