Wolfsbane HH49

[godking]

Just finished it loved it.

 

1 I loved how finally Russ hypocricy was openly and directly called out by his brothers and i loved his response though Russ is still a hypocrite i have a better understanding of his viewpoint.

 

2 Russ talks a big game about how he feels that he could beat every primarch except Sanguinus and Curze in a duel. Has he forgotten that Angron left him crawling on the floor ?

 

3 Russ being the second found son explains why he believes that he had the right to tell later found sons what to do which backfired badly with Angron.

  

4 I like that as Russ puts it the emperors close mouthedness was addressed.

[bluntblade]

Re: 2 it's worth noting he'd been shoved or dragged down rather than beaten down or simply collapsing. The two combatants were wrestling in the mud, and Russ doesn't seem badly hurt in the exchange that follows.

 

And heck, if you do count that as losing a fight, it doesn't mean Russ could never beat Angron. Especially if Russ now has the measure of him.

[godking]

Re: 2 it's worth noting he'd been shoved or dragged down rather than beaten down or simply collapsing. The two combatants were wrestling in the mud, and Russ doesn't seem badly hurt in the exchange that follows.

 

And heck, if you do count that as losing a fight, it doesn't mean Russ could never beat Angron. Especially if Russ now has the measure of him.

Russ had to crawl away from Angron in a fight he started.

 

Russ lost that one.

 

Russ is one of the better one on one fighters among the Primarchs but Horus Sanguinus and Angron have always been counted as the solid top 3 one on one fighters among the Primarchs.

[bluntblade]

I've never seen anything to suggest that Angron was inherently more lethal than Russ, and we're not talking solely about one on one either. Russ has proven his ability to get a Primarch into a position that would see him shredded by bolter fire and at least crippled for a time, long enough for Russ to deal the deathblow. QED Russ could have a good chance of killing Angron in the right circumstances.

 

I'm really tired of these piddling matches, but I'm even more tired of people reheating an argument which the author of that scene has said is quite pointless and in which he explicitly thinks both sides come off fairly even. Russ didn't realise how badly unhinged Angron was, Angron failed to understand that the encounter was motivated by altruism because he's not wired for anything but bloodshed.

[Kelborn]

And in the end, this battle ended in a draw.

 

Angron may have beaten Russ but at the same time did the Wolves beat his World Eaters.

 

And to quote a controversial page:

 

"His fight with Angron was an attempt to teach his brother a lesson. Both of them were penultimate warriors, both relied on their amazing athleticism and berzerker rages to triumph in battle, both were known for losing their temper when challenged, but Russ saw weakness in his brother's lack of strategy. Leman tried to just talk to the World Eater's primarch, but Angron was so uncontrollably, incredibly, "calm down son", angry that he just attacked Russ. While Russ and Angron were dueling, their retinues kicked off an open war, and in the battle that followed Russ found himself defeated by Angron, but Angron was in turn outmaneuvered and surrounded by the Space Wolves, thus proving Russ's lesson that warrior prowess isn't enough. That said, no one learned anything. Angron thought himself the victor because he'd won the duel and his sons had inflicted greater casualties than the Wolves, but Russ thought himself the victor because he'd proven his point and "educated" his brother. On the flip side, arguments that Russ should have been more tactful ignore that he was trying to deal with a Space Marine Legion of questionable loyalty that could and had caused massive amounts of collateral damage. There's a time for caution; it's not when rampaging supersoldiers are threatening the Imperium and its people. Which is indeed a good point, but then he should have gone all the way and gotten Big.E's approval to deal with this :cuss once and for all if it came down to that instead of trying to do things on his own on the sly. No matter how you look at it, Russ' idea to "educate" his brother was one of good intent (no really, it's a genuine bro' move that the Primarchs rarely extended to another) but of poor execution. If Russ had paid more attention and thought things through rather than sticking to do things his way, he'd have used subtler methods of persuasion to calm Angron, as Fulgrim and especially Lorgar had done in the past. Russ would have had an easier time of persuading Angron than either of them, given that he and Angron had a similar sense of brutal honor and a great lust for war. But, ultimately, it didn't occur to Russ to slow down and think his idea though, so he failed that day."

 

And now, back to Wolfsbane! :D

[Scribe]

Brothers, please. I felt the call of the Night of the Wolf....and I am here.

 

Let us not continue this settled debate.

 

We know who won, and we know who crawled.

 

I'm more interested in how Russ was exposed as a hypocrite? What is the context?

[Roomsky]

A myriad of positive reviews so far, and I seem to be the only person as of yet to give it less than 4 stars on Goodreads. I lay awake at night in fear that I have become what I've always despised: a jaded snob.

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/645/713/888.jpg

[Marshal Loss]

Well, I've just finished it, and I don't think it was a great novel.

 

Overall, I think Haley succeeds in accomplishing the task he outlined for himself in the afterword: attempting to provide a justification for why Russ would go on a mission to kill Horus. It doesn't feel as forced and foolish as many were initially fearing it would be. The Space Wolves do very well in this novel, and despite taking massive losses at the end, punch well above their weight and I think that only the most petulant of fans are going to take issue with how they are depicted. This novel is second only to Wolf King in my 'favourite depictions of the Space Wolves' list. There's not a huge amount to say here, because I thought it was all well executed.

 

I was very disappointed with how the Sons of Horus were treated here. Perhaps the rest of the fanbase, not sharing my fanatical bias, will disagree, but it hampered my enjoyment. I'd already accepted that the novel was not about the Sons of Horus, ever since the dramatis personae leaked, but having now read the book I fervently believe they should have had more of a place in the story. Horus' initial meeting with Russ makes the future Warmaster look like an infant, and the dialogue between the two in their eventual duel was painful to read. The Sons of Horus exist in this book only to give the Wolf POV characters an absurd tally of kills. There's a cool scene at the end where Horus is basically walking through a storm of firepower (thanks to his divine blessings) and you're reminded of how insanely powerful he is, but that's basically the high point. It almost feels like Haley added in "oh, and tons of Space Wolves died, they're finished as a Legion now" right at the end in order to compensate for how one-sided the battle feels when you read it. I had really enjoyed his take on Maloghurst in Twisted, and so had high expectations as a result. I left disappointed. Luckily Slaves to Darkness isn't too far away; hopefully French does Big Mal, Horus and his boys justice.

 

Cawl's presence was mixed. On one hand, Cawl is just absurdly good at everything, with none of the nuance of Arkhan Land. He feels like the 'Maverick' of Mechanicum characters. "Oo, look at how edgy I am. I don't play by the rules. I'm a rebel. A maverick. Look at how I make all of this amazing stuff, because I'm just that good. Yeah. Edgy. That's me." On the other hand, I did enjoy the Mechanicum subplot of the book, and fans of the machine-o-philes will get a lot out of this section. I get that he has to be talented, and maybe my perspective is coloured by my intense dislike of the Primaris lore, but I definitely think Cawl could have been executed far better here. Chances are Haley is going to return to Cawl in the future, however, so we'll have to see where he takes him.

 

Despite many of these negatives, the novel is pretty good. I enjoyed the Space Wolves, who were characterised really well. Fans of the 'executioner' trope will get a lot out of this book, as similarly to Wraight, Haley addresses it well. There were some great scenes in general - the conversation between the Primarchs on Terra, the Mechanicum 'cloud mining' operation, the Vengeful Spirit basically being an unsolvable maze (a nice set up for the Siege). One character who had annoyed me since his debut in Vengeful Spirit is now dead, which is a plus.

 

To put my feelings about this novel bluntly, this is something I read thoroughly, thought was alright, and will probably not read again. For Space Wolf fans this is a must read. Haley also deserves credit for structuring Russ' journey and for creating some brilliant, cinematic moments. He deserves criticism, in my view, for some atrocious dialogue and poor characterisation of the novel's villains.

[Roomsky]

Horus' initial meeting with Russ makes the future Warmaster look like an infant,

 

 

Thank you for bringing that up, Horus` delivery here turned the scene I was most excited for into a pretty terrible opening. Kudos to Haley for winning me over afterwards, I guess? I'm not sure Haley's Horus beats out anyone else's to be honest, even compared to his glorified cameos in Deliverance Lost, Fear to Tread or Betrayer.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Horus' initial meeting with Russ makes the future Warmaster look like an infant,

 

 

Thank you for bringing that up, Horus` delivery here turned the scene I was most excited for into a pretty terrible opening. Kudos to Haley for winning me over afterwards, I guess? I'm not sure Haley's Horus beats out anyone else's to be honest, even compared to his glorified cameos in Deliverance Lost, Fear to Tread or Betrayer.

 

 

Agreed, when I first heard that this scene was going to be a thing, and knowing the Space Wolf obsession with wyrd and prophecy, I kind of envisaged the novel being about the paths of both Primarchs leading up to a singular event. A duel they had both wanted, for different reasons, ever since they first laid eyes on each other, kicked off by that prologue, and with all of the baggage that comes with a galactic civil war strapped to it just to make things even spicier. But the novel isn't about Horus' journey at all, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem, except that Haley's take has the unfortunate side effect of making Russ look great and Horus look like the caricature of a better villain.

[b1soul]

On Russ and Angron, here's the original text:

 

[Angron said, ]‘You’re wrong, it wasn’t in the rain; it was at sunset on a day already darkened by the burning city behind us. My blade broke, but it didn’t matter. I pulled his chainsword from his fists, and broke it in my hands. We fell into the mud, brawling. We’d both known that fight would end up on the ground. I had him, Lorgar. My boot on his throat, at the very end. I stood above him at last, and Russ…’

…and Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Strings of it tumbled from his cracked lips with each rasping exhalation.

 

Regarding a primarch's opinion of his own prowess, take it with a grain of salt. Remember... Angron also makes the statement below. Is it is literally true? Probably not.

‘If you cannot see the chasm between savagery and ferocity, then you are hopelessly gone, Angron.’

The World Eater threw Russ back, sending the Wolf King staggering. ‘Then I am gone. But we both know the day will never dawn that you can best me in combat.’

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well, I've just finished it, and I don't think it was a great novel.

 

Overall, I think Haley succeeds in accomplishing the task he outlined for himself in the afterword: attempting to provide a justification for why Russ would go on a mission to kill Horus. It doesn't feel as forced and foolish as many were initially fearing it would be. The Space Wolves do very well in this novel, and despite taking massive losses at the end, punch well above their weight and I think that only the most petulant of fans are going to take issue with how they are depicted. This novel is second only to Wolf King in my 'favourite depictions of the Space Wolves' list. There's not a huge amount to say here, because I thought it was all well executed.

 

I was very disappointed with how the Sons of Horus were treated here. Perhaps the rest of the fanbase, not sharing my fanatical bias, will disagree, but it hampered my enjoyment. I'd already accepted that the novel was not about the Sons of Horus, ever since the dramatis personae leaked, but having now read the book I fervently believe they should have had more of a place in the story. Horus' initial meeting with Russ makes the future Warmaster look like an infant, and the dialogue between the two in their eventual duel was painful to read. The Sons of Horus exist in this book only to give the Wolf POV characters an absurd tally of kills. There's a cool scene at the end where Horus is basically walking through a storm of firepower (thanks to his divine blessings) and you're reminded of how insanely powerful he is, but that's basically the high point. It almost feels like Haley added in "oh, and tons of Space Wolves died, they're finished as a Legion now" right at the end in order to compensate for how one-sided the battle feels when you read it. I had really enjoyed his take on Maloghurst in Twisted, and so had high expectations as a result. I left disappointed. Luckily Slaves to Darkness isn't too far away; hopefully French does Big Mal, Horus and his boys justice.

 

Cawl's presence was mixed. On one hand, Cawl is just absurdly good at everything, with none of the nuance of Arkhan Land. He feels like the 'Maverick' of Mechanicum characters. "Oo, look at how edgy I am. I don't play by the rules. I'm a rebel. A maverick. Look at how I make all of this amazing stuff, because I'm just that good. Yeah. Edgy. That's me." On the other hand, I did enjoy the Mechanicum subplot of the book, and fans of the machine-o-philes will get a lot out of this section. I get that he has to be talented, and maybe my perspective is coloured by my intense dislike of the Primaris lore, but I definitely think Cawl could have been executed far better here. Chances are Haley is going to return to Cawl in the future, however, so we'll have to see where he takes him.

 

Despite many of these negatives, the novel is pretty good. I enjoyed the Space Wolves, who were characterised really well. Fans of the 'executioner' trope will get a lot out of this book, as similarly to Wraight, Haley addresses it well. There were some great scenes in general - the conversation between the Primarchs on Terra, the Mechanicum 'cloud mining' operation, the Vengeful Spirit basically being an unsolvable maze (a nice set up for the Siege). One character who had annoyed me since his debut in Vengeful Spirit is now dead, which is a plus.

 

To put my feelings about this novel bluntly, this is something I read thoroughly, thought was alright, and will probably not read again. For Space Wolf fans this is a must read. Haley also deserves credit for structuring Russ' journey and for creating some brilliant, cinematic moments. He deserves criticism, in my view, for some atrocious dialogue and poor characterisation of the novel's villains.

 

Marshal Loss, I've got to say that's one of the best and most even handed book reviews I've seen  Thanks muchly!

 

Edit: apologies for quoting entire text. I'm still having problems with my editor 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The World Eaters were vastly outnumbered - if there had been equal numbers I honestly know who would have won that fight .

[bluntblade]

The World Eaters were vastly outnumbered - if there had been equal numbers I honestly know who would have won that fight .

Where are you pulling that from? I've never seen numbers mentioned.

 

Can anyone invoke AD-B for a moment?

[Scribe]

lol are we still talking Night of the Wolf? The fact that the point of that section has been so unfathomably missed is...humorous to me.

 

Can someone tell me how this book exposes Russ as a hypocrite as was alluded to? Thats a new topic, not one that is already weeeeeeeeeeeelll settled. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Council of Nikkea - Russ is like "Well my Rune Priests use this special pixie dust so it is totally okay for them." Other Primarchs rolleyes hard .

[SchultzChaos]

Marshal Loss, do you mean that

Grael Noctua died

again?

[bluntblade]

Who's to say that Magnus messing with the Fenrisian world soul doesn't suggest some degree of truth to that, or the Thousand Sons' belief in having personal power versus the Rune Priests' approach.

 

Russ' own dialogue, meant for Magnus, clearly indicates that he wanted Magnus to rein himself in rather than be totally shackled, having apparently seen a Thousand Son corrupted by his arts. Mortarion does more to destroy the whole Librarius system and openly pursues that goal.

 

But seriously, where does it say that the Wolves outnumbered the World Eaters at Gehenna? Did we all miss that in Betrayer?

[godking]

Council of Nikkea - Russ is like "Well my Rune Priests use this special pixie dust so it is totally okay for them." Other Primarchs rolleyes hard .

Russ had valid reasons for his views though he is still a hypocrite and could have worked with the other primarchs like Jagathai to guide the librarium in the right direction 

[bluntblade]

Indeed. I wish we'd got a chance for Jaghatai and Russ to actually discuss the matter.

[godking]

Indeed. I wish we'd got a chance for Jaghatai and Russ to actually discuss the matter.

Agreed.

 

Jaghatai knew the dangers and tried to steer the librarium in the right direction 

 

Russ knew the dangers and worked to shut the librarium down while keeping his own own rune priests knowing full well that the legions using psykers was inevitable regardless of the emperors edict.

 

Russ is one of my favorite primarchs but how he dealt with the librarium is easily his greatest mistake.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Indeed. I wish we'd got a chance for Jaghatai and Russ to actually discuss the matter.

 

They kind of do in Wolfsbane.

The Khan kind of supports Russ saying that Rune Priests and Storm Seers use restraint and know what their limits are. Dorn counters saying the warps power has no limits and every use is potentially fatal. To which the Khan says the limits are from human wisdom, not the power itself. When Dorn isn't convinced Jaghatai basically says 'dude, there are two psykers standing right next to you and our father is the most powerful one ever. Obviously it can be done safely.'

 

Not necessarily the two of them discussing it with each other, but the Khan at least shows a little bit of support. Also nice to see Russ admit he was probably wrong at Nikea, still feels justified for Prospero though (kind of) 

[bluntblade]

Which is all reasonable in my book. Scars introduced an element of the Wolves having to reckon with their errors, so it's good to see them continuing to mature, if that's the right word.

[godking]

Wolfsbane also brings forth an interesting question. Why did,nt the greatest psyker of them all together with Malcador deal with the emergence of psykers in the Legions earlier? Long before Magnus was found. Russ was found long before Magnus and could have been instrumental in molding the emergent psykers using his own rune priests as an example.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Council of Nikkea - Russ is like "Well my Rune Priests use this special pixie dust so it is totally okay for them." Other Primarchs rolleyes hard .

 

Russ had valid reasons for his views though he is still a hypocrite and could have worked with the other primarchs like Jagathai to guide the librarium in the right direction

Whose to say he had valid reasons? At least we can all agree he is a hypocrite.