Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[MeltaRange]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/19/the-big-faq-words-from-the-playtesters/

 

All the grossest waac and Soup spammers are behind this FAQ. Mike Brandt's "Blood Angels" have tons of IG to tank wounds and cover every base, they can easily afford to wait a turn to deliver. Times like these I hate that everyone's choice is being dictated by the tournament community.

 

I'm genuinely curious as to what list you were running pre-FAQ that has made you so upset about this.

[toaae]

What I hate is how this makes me consider both Points and Power Level. Like, I thought the thing with Power Level is you get to outfit the squad however you want. But because I play with points and have an army with lots of deep striking, I'm trying to figure out how to maximize Power Level while minimizing points.

4 Aggressors is 148 points and 12 PL. That works out to 12.3 points per power level (P³L or PPPL). A captain is 77 and 5, for 15.4PPPL. 4 Inceptors are 180 and 20, for an astounding 9PPPL! Oh, but 6 scouts are 66 and 8, for 8.25PPPL. Guess I'll just take more scouts. Unless I want to consider points per power level per wound. Hmm....

This is ridiculous. The number of units should be enough. If I don't want to put enough "army strength" on the table, and risk being tabled, that should be my call. At the very least, let us use points for points games, so I'm not tracking two separate metrics with their separate value characteristics.


EDIT: Considering how some might take that, I should definitely clarify that I'm not trying to eek out efficiency. I like math, and I like having Death Company and Sanguinary Guard falling in from the heavens, with a few characters in tow. Trying to figure out how I can keep my theme playable is forcing me to make this wonky decisions about efficiency on a metric (lol pppl) that shouldn't exist.

[Deathwalker]

Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun.

That, my good man is the difference between Alpha Strike and Deep Strike.

The are NOT the same thing, nor are they even remotely comparable. Deeps strike is a movement option, alpha strike is a combat tactic that can be either melee or ranged.

9 L-R shooting everything at your 3 predators on turn one to wipe them off the board is no less an Alpha strike (and statistically more probable). It's dedicating firepower to eliminate a specific threat, not the movement involved in allowing you to deliver that threat.

[MeltaRange]

 

Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun.

That, my good man is the difference between Alpha Strike and Deep Strike.

The are NOT the same thing, nor are they even remotely comparable. Deeps strike is a movement option, alpha strike is a combat tactic that can be either melee or ranged.

9 L-R shooting everything at your 3 predators on turn one to wipe them off the board is no less an Alpha strike (and statistically more probable). It's dedicating firepower to eliminate a specific threat, not the movement involved in allowing you to deliver that threat.

 

 

I haven't played a game of 8th yet where I've lost that much to shooting from my opponent's deployment zone...and I play against a guy using Bor'kan Tau , a guy with Bobby G, and another who has 3 ravagers with an archon + writ of the muse.

 

Most of the damage is actually caused by the combination of the long range shooting PLUS the deep striking quad Melta Commanders

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 

 

Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun.

That, my good man is the difference between Alpha Strike and Deep Strike.

The are NOT the same thing, nor are they even remotely comparable. Deeps strike is a movement option, alpha strike is a combat tactic that can be either melee or ranged.

9 L-R shooting everything at your 3 predators on turn one to wipe them off the board is no less an Alpha strike (and statistically more probable). It's dedicating firepower to eliminate a specific threat, not the movement involved in allowing you to deliver that threat.

I haven't played a game of 8th yet where I've lost that much to shooting from my opponent's deployment zone...and I play against a guy using Bor'kan Tau , a guy with Bobby G, and another who has 3 ravagers with an archon + writ of the muse.

 

Most of the damage is actually caused by the combination of the long range shooting PLUS the deep striking quad Melta Commanders

Have you played Eldar yet? Even with the point increase to DRs, they can fit 3 Fire Prisms, 2 Hemlocks, Dark Reapers and a whole bunch of fast fast shooty stuff into a 2k list. I play it often... that list can comfortably sit back and erase your army, mostly by turn 1.

 

The sheer number of shots from Nids... mathematically it's poor odds for small elite armies... and IG can bubble wrap their entire deployment and shoot the crap out of you turn 1...

 

At least if we could deploy in the neutral zone on turn 1 it would help a little.

 

Besides regardless of your meta, or even your opinion, it IS a big change to the BA codex, that's a fact. If you don't care then move on.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

 

Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun.

That, my good man is the difference between Alpha Strike and Deep Strike.

The are NOT the same thing, nor are they even remotely comparable. Deeps strike is a movement option, alpha strike is a combat tactic that can be either melee or ranged.

9 L-R shooting everything at your 3 predators on turn one to wipe them off the board is no less an Alpha strike (and statistically more probable). It's dedicating firepower to eliminate a specific threat, not the movement involved in allowing you to deliver that threat.

I haven't played a game of 8th yet where I've lost that much to shooting from my opponent's deployment zone...and I play against a guy using Bor'kan Tau , a guy with Bobby G, and another who has 3 ravagers with an archon + writ of the muse.

 

Most of the damage is actually caused by the combination of the long range shooting PLUS the deep striking quad Melta Commanders

Have you played Eldar yet? Even with the point increase to DRs, they can fit 3 Fire Prisms, 2 Hemlocks, Dark Reapers and a whole bunch of fast fast shooty stuff into a 2k list. I play it often... that list can comfortably sit back and erase your army, mostly by turn 1.

 

The sheer number of shots from Nids... mathematically it's poor odds for small elite armies... and IG can bubble wrap their entire deployment and shoot the crap out of you turn 1...

 

At least if we could deploy in the neutral zone on turn 1 it would help a little.

 

Besides regardless of your meta, or even your opinion, it IS a big change to the BA codex, that's a fact. If you don't care then move on.

 

 

Yes, that list is nasty and not fun to play against - I wish they did something about that too.  I'm just happy about the changes (even though it does nerf my BA and the style I liked to play) because again it is a start to de-escalating the alpha strike arms race.

 

Nids took a huge nerf. (IMO) That could be based just on my experience, but the actual "sheer number of shots" for me was Devilgants in a Trygon hole and deep striking 4x devourer flyrants. (mostly)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Our Nids guys weren't spamming flying hive tyrants anyway. Tons of Termagants and dakkafexes.

 

As the for the Alpha Strike arms race... the shooty alpha strike was already better... that's really the point. This only pushes the imbalance further in that direction.

 

Now if you're running Soup and you have the bodies, that's a different story. But small Elite armies are weaker in 8th.

[Deathwalker]

 

 

Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun.

That, my good man is the difference between Alpha Strike and Deep Strike.

The are NOT the same thing, nor are they even remotely comparable. Deeps strike is a movement option, alpha strike is a combat tactic that can be either melee or ranged.

9 L-R shooting everything at your 3 predators on turn one to wipe them off the board is no less an Alpha strike (and statistically more probable). It's dedicating firepower to eliminate a specific threat, not the movement involved in allowing you to deliver that threat.

 

 

I haven't played a game of 8th yet where I've lost that much to shooting from my opponent's deployment zone...and I play against a guy using Bor'kan Tau , a guy with Bobby G, and another who has 3 ravagers with an archon + writ of the muse.

 

Most of the damage is actually caused by the combination of the long range shooting PLUS the deep striking quad Melta Commanders

 

Range is not the issue, it's effective use of that range. Face down 6 L-R's firing their battle cannons with re-rolling 1's

that's 12d6 Str 8 AP -2 D3 dam shots hitting on 4's from 72" range and that's JUST the battle cannons. 

[MeltaRange]

Range is not the issue, it's effective use of that range. Face down 6 L-R's firing their battle cannons with re-rolling 1's

 

that's 12d6 Str 8 AP -2 D3 dam shots hitting on 4's from 72" range and that's JUST the battle cannons. 

 

 

I'm not going to discount your point.  That's a tough amount of firepower to face.  Did you know tho, that on average, that all those tanks is not actually not enough wounds to kill 3 Preds, even assuming ideal conditions and wound distribution?  You can actually do things to mitigate that...and (I know this is the BA forum) there are actually a lot of armies out there who can mitigate that kind of firepower VERY well.  Not that that's super relevant here, but there is an aspect of Rock/Paper/Scissors to this game; you can't just take the worst case scenario and complain about it, without ack'ing that YOUR army will totally obliterate others too.

 

The difference is, that the Leman Russes need to be deployed on the field, (so are subject to being destroyed themselves if they go second) and need to move < 5" (so need to be able to draw LoS) and also need to be Cadian to make that happen.  Where as Deep Strikers can effectively ignore both of those downsides.  So you can see the balance issues there.

 

For example - what worries you more if you are setting up?  A Tau Commander with 4 fusion blasters or a Predator with 4 Lascannons?

[Sea-People]

I'm trying my best not to give into the salt and to overcome this, admittedly crippling, blow to our army, but its really, really difficult. I found it funny that raven guard, alpha legion, and GS Cult got an exception "because fluff" basically.

 

The Blood Angels whole schtick is "drop from the sky and beat face." Guess thats not thematic enough eh?

 

Also drop pods are even more pointless. lol.

[Deathwalker]

 

Range is not the issue, it's effective use of that range. Face down 6 L-R's firing their battle cannons with re-rolling 1's

 

that's 12d6 Str 8 AP -2 D3 dam shots hitting on 4's from 72" range and that's JUST the battle cannons. 

 

 

I'm not going to discount your point.  That's a tough amount of firepower to face.  Did you know tho, that on average, that all those tanks is not actually not enough wounds to kill 3 Preds, even assuming ideal conditions and wound distribution?  You can actually do things to mitigate that...and (I know this is the BA forum) there are actually a lot of armies out there who can mitigate that kind of firepower VERY well.  Not that that's super relevant here, but there is an aspect of Rock/Paper/Scissors to this game; you can't just take the worst case scenario and complain about it, without ack'ing that YOUR army will totally obliterate others too.

 

The difference is, that the Leman Russes need to be deployed on the field, (so are subject to being destroyed themselves if they go second) and need to move < 5" (so need to be able to draw LoS) and also need to be Cadian to make that happen.  Where as Deep Strikers can effectively ignore both of those downsides.  So you can see the balance issues there.

 

For example - what worries you more if you are setting up?  A Tau Commander with 4 fusion blasters or a Predator with 4 Lascannons?

 

All true, and that's the point with my internal monologue earlier. The rules already provided enough defence to a T1 melee strike, yet because of people -adapting- to that limitation, they get nerfed on both counts.

Adapting should not equal breaking, and if it does, it means a fundamental failure of rules.

As to the L-R's being destroyed, a 15 man DC blob is far more squishy on average than 3 L-R tanks, and really, not that much cheaper if you set them up as something to do comparable damage

As to setup, what are you asking exactly?

HOW a unit is deployed, or what weapons I find more problematic? 

[Xerxus]

Speaking of being able to deepstrike and put out a lot of alpha.

 

For 1 CP you can set up a 125 pt Ravager with three disintegrator cannons in deepstrike. When it drops it is killing ~3.5 Sanguiniary Guard on average representing 122 pts of models. It has a 36" range and can ignore cover (Kabal of the Flayed Skull).

 

These numbers are outrageous. Why are units like this allowed to deepstrike in their own deployment zone on turn 1? That restriction doesn't matter on most boards given the range. 

[MeltaRange]

Speaking of being able to deepstrike and put out a lot of alpha.

 

For 1 CP you can set up a 125 pt Ravager with three disintegrator cannons in deepstrike. When it drops it is killing ~3.5 Sanguiniary Guard on average representing 122 pts of models. It has a 36" range and can ignore cover (Kabal of the Flayed Skull).

 

These numbers are outrageous. Why are units like this allowed to deepstrike in their own deployment zone on turn 1? That restriction doesn't matter on most boards given the range. 

 

Absolutely.  But you haven't even scratched the surface of what broken Drukhari can do.  How about combo'ing a Dark Creed Tantalus (see "An Esoteric Kill, Delivered from Afar" Stratagem) with 3 Ravagers from Kabal of the Black Heart next to an Archon with Writ of the Black Muse?  That army is laughably good.

[Panzer]

I'm trying my best not to give into the salt and to overcome this, admittedly crippling, blow to our army, but its really, really difficult. I found it funny that raven guard, alpha legion, and GS Cult got an exception "because fluff" basically.

 

The Blood Angels whole schtick is "drop from the sky and beat face." Guess thats not thematic enough eh?

 

Also drop pods are even more pointless. lol.

 

It's not like deep strike is completely banned.

GSC etc. got an exception because their thing is "haha! We were already there for a while!" which wouldn't make any sense from only turn 2 on. On the other hand our descend of angels thing still works perfectly fine from turn 2 on thematically.

Likewise our Forlorn Fury would get an exception if it would work like Strike from the Shadows because they were simply so in rage mode that they charged ahead of the actual force ... it's just not necessariy to give them an exception there because that one doesn't get handled via tactical reserves and is just an extra move before the game begins.

 

The problem is how it'll play out against specific armies due how the other stuff is balanced. That's a crunch problem, not a fluff problem. It also remains to be seen how hard it actually hits us. We've lots of negative theory crafting but not much experience with such a beta rule yet.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm sure most of us must have some experience deep striking on turn 2 though, even prior to the FAQ. I've tried it many times and sometimes it actually is a good tactic... yet sometimes it's crippling to wait.

 

Thematically falling from the skies is definitely our thing.

 

I should say, my second army is Death Korps of Krieg, arguably the least optimized IG army, and I always feel like I'm playing on easy mode. Guess I should just play soup and make my friends hate me haha.

[Panzer]

Yeah, I've actually had to deep strike turn 2 multiple times because I forgot about it turn 1. Blame the beer and whiskey. :P

It's not THAT bad, but then again I don't rely on deep strikes since my only unit capable of doing so is a unit of 3 Bolter Inceptors (and soon a Captain).

[Paladin777]

Contrast that with somebody who’s intended list is: jump captains, A jump librarian, jump death company, sanguinary guard, inceptors, Some squads of intercessors, and a Lieutenant. I’ve already got the death company starting on the board to make it to the halfway mark.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah, I've actually had to deep strike turn 2 multiple times because I forgot about it turn 1. Blame the beer and whiskey. :P

It's not THAT bad, but then again I don't rely on deep strikes since my only unit capable of doing so is a unit of 3 Bolter Inceptors (and soon a Captain).

Bourbon for me haha. I play an Emperors Children army a lot where I like to wait. He's really good about filling all the deep strike holes anyway. Just the risk keeps him honest though...

 

Against Eldar if I wait I auto lose, or if I don't get first turn ugh.

[Bremon]

2nd turn DS is usually when I bring my jump packs in anyway, but knowing they can’t come in turn one affects deployment and first turn behaviour from your opponent. The threat of turn 1 DS before meant lots of spacing out etc. It’s less of a problem now with an extra movement phase to adjust.

[Sea-People]

 

It's not like deep strike is completely banned.

GSC etc. got an exception because their thing is "haha! We were already there for a while!" which wouldn't make any sense from only turn 2 on. On the other hand our descend of angels thing still works perfectly fine from turn 2 on thematically.

Likewise our Forlorn Fury would get an exception if it would work like Strike from the Shadows because they were simply so in rage mode that they charged ahead of the actual force ... it's just not necessariy to give them an exception there because that one doesn't get handled via tactical reserves and is just an extra move before the game begins.

 

The problem is how it'll play out against specific armies due how the other stuff is balanced. That's a crunch problem, not a fluff problem. It also remains to be seen how hard it actually hits us. We've lots of negative theory crafting but not much experience with such a beta rule yet.

 

 

Oh for sure we are still a playable army. The game plan is to clear screens on turn one so we can drop the hammer on turn 2. We just need to adjust.

 

I'm more concerned about my 5 pods that have sat on the shelf since 8th dropped. At this rate I wouldn't consider taking them even if they were 10 points or free.

[Ornithologist]

Don't forget Sanguinary guard are getting butchered by the PL ruling.

 

5 S Guard are around 180 points and set at 20 PL

8 S guard in 2 units of the minimum 4 are around 280 points and are only 16 PL

 

So unless you are cool with taking literally minimum S Guard squads, you are going to paying a massive PL tax.

[Spagunk]

My favorite part so far is how a LOT of people basically are saying that BA and their players are whiny babies and should embrace the shooting utopia. Yet I thought that was what we've had in 6th and 7th edition so I am confused by this response.

[Deathwalker]

Don't forget Sanguinary guard are getting butchered by the PL ruling.

 

5 S Guard are around 180 points and set at 20 PL

8 S guard in 2 units of the minimum 4 are around 280 points and are only 16 PL

 

So unless you are cool with taking literally minimum S Guard squads, you are going to paying a massive PL tax.

 

You know how people have been gabbing about reasons for not using MSU's?

Well, this sorta does it, except you only need to go to 6 to get the PL boost.

[Paladin777]

If I wanted to play a shooty marine army, I’d play dark angels, or smurfs or something. I feels the thirst...

[Spagunk]

If I wanted to play a shooty marine army, I’d play dark angels, or smurfs or something.

 

<sarcasm> That just means you have been playing Blood Angels wrong </sarcasm> Not directed at you but it's the default answer anyone is going to give you.

 

I've honestly given up at this point with arguing. No one is going to see the point of these changes (And how it impacts BA) and any bit of contrary opinion is just going to be viewed as sour grapes on our part.