Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[Morticon]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Brother_b. 

I would go further in saying that the (ultra) competitive environment like in the big States events is even more different from other competitive environments in smaller cities.  Cape Town, SA has a very competitive gaming environment - but, there's a small gaming community of around 50 players- of which only half regularly attend tournaments.  Because of the exchange rate, the armies they field also change very,very slowly - and you dont get the experience of the flash-in-the-pan uber type builds you see theorised online - at least not very often.   

What this means is that the rules will still inevitably affect the broader gaming base, while having been catered to an almost non-existent player base. 

Nothing has been done to deal with the issues we're having and experiencing in our meta, but I do acknowledge that this is because there are certain builds and army types that simply dont exist.

That being said, I feel we do need to rally and put the various degrees of disappointment into something more proactive and productive and write to the FAQ /ERRATA design team. 

I'm usually against "special treatment" - but this is honestly a case where the already averagely powered BA could have been a fluffy exception to the rule (along with the GSC). 

"Descent of Angels"  as a concept (allowing us to DS within 9" in turn 1) would have been perfectly acceptable to our army build given the (silly) powerlevel restriction. Good screening and good positioning would still prevent us from getting where we need to go.  It's just that now, we cant attempt to do it turn 1 either. 

[brother_b]

 

 

Blood Angels were not too strong in competitive play, that much is indisputable. All of our abilities could be played around by most armies. The assumption that it's OP to be able to charge without having to endure a turn of shooting is unfounded.

And...like so many things at the FLG/Tournament scene, it's because people cherry pick from a buffet of units and abuse the heck out of them.

 

Of course Captain Smash dropping out of orbit with a 3D6" re-rollable non-Overwatchable charge T1 feels OP when there's also an Azrael-buffed hellblaster line, and a Guilliman Assback parking lot on the table as well.

 

But when someone takes pure BA...suddenly the above Captain Smash scenario is a vitally necessary threat to keep the rest of the army alive.

Captain Smash is amazing. How game changing were his turn 1 charges though? Against well screened armies I think it would be negligible. Against any army his target could merely fall back out of range and expose him to the inevitable barrage of shooting.

 

My biggest issue however is the total impunity with which non LOS firing models can now affect us. We have no way to target them if they're out of our LOS and they can hammer us all game long. Very poor design.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

Blood Angels were not too strong in competitive play, that much is indisputable. All of our abilities could be played around by most armies. The assumption that it's OP to be able to charge without having to endure a turn of shooting is unfounded.

And...like so many things at the FLG/Tournament scene, it's because people cherry pick from a buffet of units and abuse the heck out of them.

 

Of course Captain Smash dropping out of orbit with a 3D6" re-rollable non-Overwatchable charge T1 feels OP when there's also an Azrael-buffed hellblaster line, and a Guilliman Assback parking lot on the table as well.

 

But when someone takes pure BA...suddenly the above Captain Smash scenario is a vitally necessary threat to keep the rest of the army alive.

Captain Smash is amazing. How game changing were his turn 1 charges though? Against well screened armies I think it would be negligible. Against any army his target could merely fall back out of range and expose him to the inevitable barrage of shooting.

 

My biggest issue however is the total impunity with which non LOS firing models can now affect us. We have no way to target them if they're out of our LOS and they can hammer us all game long. Very poor design.

 

This is a huge deal for me. I play against guard regularly, I am not looking forward to having zero answers turn 1 against a turtled up army of LoS ignoring T7 tanks that don't care about range or site, and with their perks can re-roll dice at meme levels. God forbid we draw long table edges and I can't even move my scouts up enough to ping at his commanders that offer pseudo free orders and an endless supply of CPs.

 

Before, with either my bugs, or my angels I had to really force my opponent to spread out. In the case of the bugs Mawlocs would do excellent amounts of damage if he was turtled and put large amounts of pressure on his tanks since they so easily engage and tie up the big guns. Captain Smash and Mephiston in a Pod gave solid counters to the executioners caddying Pask, or the LoS ignoring models with re-rolls. 

 

I'm the only Bug player in my meta and like one of 3/4 BA players. I've been looking to move to Knights since the new protection allows me to actually do stuff turn one without being Alpha striked. But until the new codex comes out I'm stuck with 3-4 models that are still susceptible to mass lascannon fire. 

[MeltaRange]

Have you tried maybe rethinking your list just a little? A Stormraven can fly right up and target a basilisk hiding from your main army. You don't have "zero answers"

[Palwatch]

Have you tried maybe rethinking your list just a little? A Stormraven can fly right up and target a basilisk hiding from your main army. You don't have "zero answers"

Stormravens are great, but at 300+ points its a huge chunk of a 2k army. Once its gone its gone, and if guard get T1 it will almost certainly be gone. Deepstrike gave non gunline armies the ability to protect a portion of their army T1 and still be effective T1. If you are forced to concentrate large amounts of points into a single unit on the board at the start you lose out to the gunline and take a huge hit that gurad especially can endure because of the volume of units they have. Its really a double hit

[Panzer]

A flyer still needs space to get placed and if you don't want to make it even easier for the opponent to destroy it you need to consider where to move with the 90° turn without getting destroyed by default.

Depending on the terrain and how much infantry the AM player is bringing that might prove more difficult than you think.

 

That being said Stormraven are expensive and often die turn 1 against proper anti-tank even without moving to disadvantageous spots so even if you manage to kill one or two artillery tanks with it before it gets destroyed, it would still haven't made its points back so the rest of the army would have to compensate for it somehow.

[Brother Crimson]

Before, with either my bugs, or my angels I had to really force my opponent to spread out. In the case of the bugs Mawlocs would do excellent amounts of damage if he was turtled and put large amounts of pressure on his tanks since they so easily engage and tie up the big guns. Captain Smash and Mephiston in a Pod gave solid counters to the executioners caddying Pask, or the LoS ignoring models with re-rolls.

 

 

I think you nail one of the impact on the game. Having lots of reserves forces the opponent to populate his backfield to prevent drop space.

 

However with wings of fire there is still a way to have a scary unit on the table that will have that effect. Not as important but you should have something to punish bad board placement.

[MeltaRange]

I'm not saying it's an iwin button, but it's an option. You guys all need to repaint your BA yellow because you sure are Lamenters

[Quixus]

However with wings of fire there is still a way to have a scary unit on the table that will have that effect. Not as important but you should have something to punish bad board placement.

One unit that costs CP does not compare to half your army, especially since now our characters aren't there to aid anymore.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I'm not saying it's an iwin button, but it's an option. You guys all need to repaint your BA yellow because you sure are Lamenters

And like the lamenters we have reason to be very unhappy.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Have you tried maybe rethinking your list just a little? A Stormraven can fly right up and target a basilisk hiding from your main army. You don't have "zero answers"

I do run a SR in some games, it is rather expensive as a gun boat. And the amount of sounds it can put on an executioner is marginal, especially when there are three one holding Pask. Then you have *ALL* that zig-zagging bubble wrap that disallows placement of the base of the storm raven. This really dictates where it can go based on the new rules and it's bulk.

 

Even with the right placement if I am able to kill 1 tank there's 2 more that's going to FF it down, and then still mortar my ground troops.

 

Followed by the Lascannon teams that can make quick work of the lasbacks.

 

Before I could lose first turn and still be able to hard counter, now the feel is going to be a more up hill challenge.

 

I'm not discounting what you're saying Melta, I'm just not at a point where I can change much of my physical lists.

 

I feel more for white scars and fluffy BA players that might want to bring more than 3 units of bikes or ASM respectfully. Those lists got nuked. I do think there are still glaring issues we in this very sub forum have addressed though nothing has been done to help with that. Read Mort's letter, or some of the insight from melee centric armies/other gamers with regards to the balance issues we are still experiencing.

 

Wolf players (at least those in my meta) have moved on to vanilla marines if they want to play MEQ because they are tired of picking up all their wolf riders after turn 1 since they move maybe get small arms fire off and then die to big guns.

[Bremon]

I'm not saying it's an iwin button, but it's an option. You guys all need to repaint your BA yellow because you sure are Lamenters

More nuggets of wisdom to go along with the idea of a 27.7% chance of making a charge being “balanced” and any improvement to that being unfair towards shooting armies. One solution being “take a storm raven”, which has already been nerfed this edition after early success. I think at this point I can say I will just agree to disagree with you.

[MeltaRange]

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

[Panzer]

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman than you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

edit: typo

[Paladin777]

That’s because you were a savvy player using units to their full board control effectiveness...

[MeltaRange]

 

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman as you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

 

Those armies are tough.  I'm not implying they are easy to defeat, especially for an army like BA and Grey Knights.  I'm trying to encourage thinking outside the box, not just throwing up your hands in the air.

 

I'm sure that list has it's own boogeyman.  I'm actually thinking about bringing 30 Intercessors and the equivalent of 30 heavy bolters in my BA list now, with only 2-3 units in Deep Strike.  I'm sure that's scarier to your army than a bunch of Sang Guard in reserve.

[Panzer]

That’s because you were a savvy player using units to their full board control effectiveness...

 

 

Yeah that was the point of taking those units and the theme of the list. What are you trying to say? The point of my post is that if everybody gets 1-2 movement phases before any reserves arrive they can do the same with any of their units as well.

 

[Deathwalker]

 

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman as you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

 

 

That’s because you were a savvy player using units to their full board control effectiveness...

And now, thanks to this ruling, even a non savvy player gets a turn 1 mulligan.......

[Panzer]

 

 

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman as you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

 

Those armies are tough.  I'm not implying they are easy to defeat, especially for an army like BA and Grey Knights.  I'm trying to encourage thinking outside the box, not just throwing up your hands in the air.

 

I'm sure that list has it's own boogeyman.  I'm actually thinking about bringing 30 Intercessors and the equivalent of 30 heavy bolters in my BA list now, with only 2-3 units in Deep Strike.  I'm sure that's scarier to your army than a bunch of Sang Guard in reserve.

 

 

The thing is, it's not about this list in particular. I just used it as an example of creating a similar scenario before the beta rule was a thing. With the beta rule it'll be a MUCH more common thing to see and a serious problem for reserves.

You don't really need to encourage anybody to think outside of the box here. People are already doing that. Just because they aren't optimistic about any little chance to do something it doesn't mean they aren't considering it.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Haha the "boogieman" is real then. Have you seen the "Mike Brandt's Blood Angels"?

 

But on the regular I face poxwalker spam, cultists, Catachan infantry blobs, Eldar that can dump an insane weight of fire from long range. But you don't even need tons of bodies to block deep strike zones in your own deployment.

[Spagunk]

 

 

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman as you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

 

Those armies are tough.  I'm not implying they are easy to defeat, especially for an army like BA and Grey Knights.  I'm trying to encourage thinking outside the box, not just throwing up your hands in the air.

 

I'm sure that list has it's own boogeyman.  I'm actually thinking about bringing 30 Intercessors and the equivalent of 30 heavy bolters in my BA list now, with only 2-3 units in Deep Strike.  I'm sure that's scarier to your army than a bunch of Sang Guard in reserve.

 

 

I'm just going to come right out and say this. You're just trying to troll us into a frenzy. What is your point? What are you trying to prove?

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion based on their own experiences yet it seems like you're goal is to antagonize people over it. Your suggestions are not suggestions when you reciprocate with "you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman". You provided advice, we provide a counter argument against said advice. But yet now you are saying that any counter argument is invalid because we are just being obtuse.

 

Man, I don't know which sub-forum you belong to but I implore you to rethink your method of communication to something a bit less hostile.

[Deathwalker]

 

The power level ruling should have given you a heads up about what GW is really considering with these rules.

Power level does not reflect balance, it reflects sales

I think that's over cynical. To me, it's clear they think Power Level is easier to figure out at the table when deploying. That's true, but it ignores the reality that people are going to be figuring it out when writing their army list.

 

Let's say you wanted 2x 5 man squads to go with your DS Component (which invariably will have a higher power cost due to their elite status and or gear). Going a 6 man squad to trigger the double power level (but not points cost) becomes a really attractive option to compensate for that.

How are unit's sold for Marines?

Boxes of 5 or 10, so now I need an extra box to cover those 2 models.

Is it cynical to think like that?

Sure.

But I have worked 22 years in retail, and I know how they think. :P

[Dont-Be-Haten]

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that. On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it? Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven? And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

Well, in my last game against guard my opponent ran between 75-80 guardsmen. Maybe 15-20ish more with 3 executioners, 3 hydras 3-4 chimeras and a couple basilisk. He also had 2 Lascannon teams. He stole the initiative and took out most of my anti tank before I could do anything with minimal movement. Which left me with two turns before I could really counter him. I basically shuffled my troops up the board and took pop shots where I could. Most of my army was left advancing which couldn't shoot, or was negligible damage. Then in his turn 2 he adjusted his bubble out for efficiency. I went from a fairly competent deployment and hard counter to a soft counter that had to expend resources to deal with a bubble wrap while trying to lock into combat with his executioners to give myself a turn to bring up the remainder of my army to play to the objectives. But I still had to deal with his LoS ignoring artillery which shot 4/5 troops options off the objectives.

 

We have between 25-30% terrain per 2×2. and usually have at least 3 LoS blocking pieces from table edge to table edge with one near the middle. (That's not always the case) but we try to keep it balanced. we've.

 

This is where we have issues with bulky models, and the new rules. We use a house rule for wobbly models such as big flyers. That being said, there are still times when even with good placement there are still moments when the models can't be placed where you want them.

[Deathwalker]

 

 

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that.  On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it?  Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven?  And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

 

To be fair, it's much less of a boogeyman as you might think. My T'au army focusses largely around Stealth Suits, Pathfinder and Kroot and I'm way out of my deployment zone before the game even begins (and still have plenty of units still in my deployment zone, so no deep striking behind me either). So I basically confront people with a similar situation even before the beta rule already. Now give me 1-2 movement phases more and I have LOTS of freedom where to place my units and where to leave openings. I remember games where a Grey Knight player barely made it to the middle of the board with a single unit before the game ended. Now with the beta rule every non-elite army will be able to do something like that even without special scout or infiltration moves.

 

 

Those armies are tough.  I'm not implying they are easy to defeat, especially for an army like BA and Grey Knights.  I'm trying to encourage thinking outside the box, not just throwing up your hands in the air.

 

I'm sure that list has it's own boogeyman.  I'm actually thinking about bringing 30 Intercessors and the equivalent of 30 heavy bolters in my BA list now, with only 2-3 units in Deep Strike.  I'm sure that's scarier to your army than a bunch of Sang Guard in reserve.

 

You know what would make that list work better?

Making it Dark Angels.

If you do not understand that, you do not understand the issues people have with this ruling.

[brother_b]

My problem with this whole thing is that you guys are conjuring up this boogeyman of an opponent and using that to explain/justify why you need this and why you need that. On one hand you say "well, the boogeyman has 150+ infantry models and then he can just expand up the board and block off half of it...I need to DS turn 1!" and then a Stormraven is suggested and then you say "well the boogeyman can bunch up his models and prevent it from landing!" so which one is it? Is he expanding so you can't deep strike properly on Turn 2, or is he bunching up so you can't fit your Stormraven? And what are you doing on Turn 1...not shooting at the 150 infantry flooding the board?

The boogie man is a regular opponent of mine. He can bring flyers, tons of bodies, tons of tanks. Before he had to set up and at least plan for a possible deep strike turn one. Now? LOL. He doesn't worry about anything.

 

And our gaming group is what I consider probably the vast majority of gamers are like: we play competitively, with armies we love, with no spammed unit lists, with a theme. We play to win, but we are not tournament players.

 

Tournament players and the cottage industry of event organizers etc. have warped the game. They should just have tournament rules, and regular rules.

 

Edit caveat: when I mentioned tournament players, and organizers, I'm not talking about the small event, the charity event, or the convention event where a dedicated group of people puts forth a tournament. I'm talking about the huge, moneymaking events that seem to draw hundreds of people. I'm also not disparaging those players that enjoy that type of game. Unfortunately their issues affect all other types of gamers.

 

And I don't enjoy the word or term casual gamer, I've invested thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in my hobby. I am serious about this game. I just don't play it in a tournament or win at all costs style. I play with friends who enjoy the same hobby like I do.