Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[Deathwalker]

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens, and if I DO get the first turn, I basically can't move as I await YOU to decide when you will bring down the pain, without being able to really do anything to thwart it besides just try and decide who's gonna get obliterated first.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

Question, and it's an honest question.

Why penalize the superior strategic commander because the other one did not consider something?

That's what these rules are doing. If games are being won "turn 1" and you fail to optimize your defences -knowing- that, who's fault is it?

WHY are DS plasma Scions killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

WHY are DS melee units with their host of already existing hoops and penalties killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

If you don't consider those questions, perhaps the fault lies not in the rules, but the player.

 

Here's the thing, movement is available to everyone, works the same way for everyone, the only difference is how you use your available movement.

Movement, by that maxim is never broken.

 

What gets broken is troop load out choices.

10 eldar, meh.

10 dark reapers??

Can I have 10 man Dev's with 9-10 hvy weapons please?

Can they all be as good as reapers as well?

 

THEN layer on the synergy of command bubbles and psychic powers, you get some busted arse stuff going on.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

Thing is though those stratagems, "decent of angels" etc were designed to do exactly just that. ...and also blocking out areas from deep strike is incredibly easy ("flawless deployment"?? I dunno) ...you only need to space your units roughly 18" apart and you can measure them as many times as you want.

 

What about the shenanigans of Leman Russ shooting twice, having essentially unlimited CP now, or Fire Prisms using Linked Fire and actually deleting units before you can react.

 

You keep saying assault happens "before someone can react" but that's not really true at all. They can, easily, deploy to prevent that. They get Overwatch. Unlike shooting shenanigans the assaulting player still needs a boatload of luck just to have a chance to hit, there are stratagems to shoot deep strikers, and then they can Flee and in their turn and focus their guns on you. Not to mention you'll be coming in with a lot less support from Deep strike with the beta rules because of the Power Level mess.

 

 

[toaae]

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

You asked if opponents enjoyed the gameplay. I ask, since when is fun so objective that we can make sweeping generalizations on what needs to change for fun? My opponents have never complained about Turn 1 assault from reserves more than Turn 1 non-LoS shooting, bad objective draws, poor terrain, good terrain, bad dice, good dice, forgetting to bring a unit, forgetting a special rule, misdeploying a shooting unit so it can't see, misdeploying a shooting unit so it gets shot to death Turn 1, not having enough points, having too many points, ect, ect...

 

It wasn't a hard and fast reality that deep strike wasn't fun to play against. But, now, my fun has been neutered, as my army has taken a big hit, and since most people's solution to "adapt" is "run more units that are better in other chapters", I don't think the rule is any good.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens, and if I DO get the first turn, I basically can't move as I await YOU to decide when you will bring down the pain, without being able to really do anything to thwart it besides just try and decide who's gonna get obliterated first.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

Question, and it's an honest question.

Why penalize the superior strategic commander because the other one did not consider something?

That's what these rules are doing. If games are being won "turn 1" and you fail to optimize your defences -knowing- that, who's fault is it?

WHY are DS plasma Scions killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

WHY are DS melee units with their host of already existing hoops and penalties killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

If you don't consider those questions, perhaps the fault lies not in the rules, but the player.

 

Here's the thing, movement is available to everyone, works the same way for everyone, the only difference is how you use your available movement.

Movement, by that maxim is never broken.

 

What gets broken is troop load out choices.

10 eldar, meh.

10 dark reapers??

Can I have 10 man Dev's with 9-10 hvy weapons please?

Can they all be as good as reapers as well?

 

THEN layer on the synergy of command bubbles and psychic powers, you get some busted arse stuff going on.

 

 

My feelings towards this change is not taken in the context of "well now we suck and Eldar are better!" but more in the context that they are Step 1 in the overall change to make the game better.  Again, this is all IMO.  You could feel completely different than I, and that's fine.  Overall, I think the steps taken so far make for a more enjoyable game.

 

 

 

The deep striking plasma Scions can kill a unit, sure. (they also have restrictions which forces you to take other units in order to bring a Command Squad with all the special weapons, but I digress)  My problem with the melee deep strike charge is with BA/Nids/Khorne Daemons particularly, not because of their offensive output but because:

1) They have abilities which allow you to ignore the "need a 9" charge" which was IMO balanced

2) They have abilities to pull shenanigans which can do much, much more than simply delete a unit with plasma.  This is exasperated by the fact that on turn 1, you are blocked into a deployment zone.  You can land 9" away but you can actually make it up to like what 21" with your moves and pile-ins and consolidations?  I'd have to do the math again but I'm pretty sure you can actually blow past a screen (while killing it) up to 12" unless I spend like an hour trying to deploy units so that I can cover all the potential bases to force you to pile-in and consolidate a certain way. 

 

Finally, in order to avoid #2 above, you NEED to take Scouts or Infiltrators and I just think that's bad design to make a game where you are forced to take certain units or lose.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

Thing is though those stratagems, "decent of angels" etc were designed to do exactly just that. ...and also blocking out areas from deep strike is incredibly easy ("flawless deployment"?? I dunno) ...you only need to space your units roughly 18" apart and you can measure them as many times as you want.

 

What about the shenanigans of Leman Russ shooting twice, having essentially unlimited CP now, or Fire Prisms using Linked Fire and actually deleting units before you can react.

 

You keep saying assault happens "before someone can react" but that's not really true at all. They can, easily, deploy to prevent that. They get Overwatch. Unlike shooting shenanigans the assaulting player still needs a boatload of luck just to have a chance to hit, there are stratagems to shoot deep strikers, and then they can Flee and in their turn and focus their guns on you. Not to mention you'll be coming in with a lot less support from Deep strike with the beta rules because of the Power Level mess.

 

 

What I am saying is that "alpha strikes from reserves" (of all types) are too good. (IMO)  Assault out of deep strike Turn 1 is especially good for certain armies like BA, Khorne Demons, and Nids.  Long Range Alpha Strikes can be more easily avoided (IMO - maybe I just play with ample terrain) and frankly I think that GW's follow up to this might be "if you are firing a weapon that doesn't need LoS and you cannot draw LoS, then it's -1 to hit" to bring down Basilisks/Manticores and enable an opponent to mitigate that type of alpha strike a bit.

[BaldrickRSA]

To MeltaRange:

 

 

 

But is what makes us Blood Angels, and thus strike fear in our opponents. Taking this away from us, makes us just another marine chapter in red armour. Not every unit makes a successful charge. This is what Blood Angels should be know for and feared. With these beta rules we are no better than any other marine or chaos marine chapter. I am so disappointed with GW regarding these Beta Rules. Give us something to have us feared, we are Blood Angels!!!

[Deathwalker]

 

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens, and if I DO get the first turn, I basically can't move as I await YOU to decide when you will bring down the pain, without being able to really do anything to thwart it besides just try and decide who's gonna get obliterated first.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

Question, and it's an honest question.

Why penalize the superior strategic commander because the other one did not consider something?

That's what these rules are doing. If games are being won "turn 1" and you fail to optimize your defences -knowing- that, who's fault is it?

WHY are DS plasma Scions killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

WHY are DS melee units with their host of already existing hoops and penalties killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

If you don't consider those questions, perhaps the fault lies not in the rules, but the player.

 

Here's the thing, movement is available to everyone, works the same way for everyone, the only difference is how you use your available movement.

Movement, by that maxim is never broken.

 

What gets broken is troop load out choices.

10 eldar, meh.

10 dark reapers??

Can I have 10 man Dev's with 9-10 hvy weapons please?

Can they all be as good as reapers as well?

 

THEN layer on the synergy of command bubbles and psychic powers, you get some busted arse stuff going on.

 

 

My feelings towards this change is not taken in the context of "well now we suck and Eldar are better!" but more in the context that they are Step 1 in the overall change to make the game better.  Again, this is all IMO.  You could feel completely different than I, and that's fine.  Overall, I think the steps taken so far make for a more enjoyable game.

 

 

 

The deep striking plasma Scions can kill a unit, sure. (they also have restrictions which forces you to take other units in order to bring a Command Squad with all the special weapons, but I digress)  My problem with the melee deep strike charge is with BA/Nids/Khorne Daemons particularly, not because of their offensive output but because:

1) They have abilities which allow you to ignore the "need a 9" charge" which was IMO balanced

2) They have abilities to pull shenanigans which can do much, much more than simply delete a unit with plasma.  This is exasperated by the fact that on turn 1, you are blocked into a deployment zone.  You can land 9" away but you can actually make it up to like what 21" with your moves and pile-ins and consolidations?  I'd have to do the math again but I'm pretty sure you can actually blow past a screen (while killing it) up to 12" unless I spend like an hour trying to deploy units so that I can cover all the potential bases to force you to pile-in and consolidate a certain way. 

 

Finally, in order to avoid #2 above, you NEED to take Scouts or Infiltrators and I just think that's bad design to make a game where you are forced to take certain units or lose.

 

You miss the point I was making with Eldar, it wasn't that Eldar are overpowered (they are not), it's just that some synergies work better than others. 10 guys with ML I can handle, 10 guys shooting twice when the target is "doomed" and you are "guided" is the issue with them (both powers that get off more reliably than a charge roll, something everyone uses)

Questions:

1: How is a greater chance of failure (9" charge) "balanced"?

Some armies get bonuses to it sure, but it costs them in points, or CP's, it's not free, but the base math is that most of your charges, barring "bonus" stuff, will fail, but you will still be shot for trying. Even 1 killshot from OW can cut 2-5 attacks from possibly landing at all., if they even land.

 

Your #2 argument is a bit of a mess, so I am not sure how to respond to it. You seem to be talking about multiple units such as DS supported by bikes??

I would need more clarification on that one man, I am just not sure where you are going.

 

As for needing to take scouts or infiltrators, it's called board control, and YES you need it. Some armies can only do their own DZ, some can do it further up, but controlling who goes where is a BASIC component of wargaming, let alone 40k. Hell, Board control has been around since chess and checkers.

If people do not understand this, they have no right to complain when they get fool's mated in 3 moves.

The rules cannot, nor should not play FOR you. 

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

Thing is though those stratagems, "decent of angels" etc were designed to do exactly just that. ...and also blocking out areas from deep strike is incredibly easy ("flawless deployment"?? I dunno) ...you only need to space your units roughly 18" apart and you can measure them as many times as you want.

 

What about the shenanigans of Leman Russ shooting twice, having essentially unlimited CP now, or Fire Prisms using Linked Fire and actually deleting units before you can react.

 

You keep saying assault happens "before someone can react" but that's not really true at all. They can, easily, deploy to prevent that. They get Overwatch. Unlike shooting shenanigans the assaulting player still needs a boatload of luck just to have a chance to hit, there are stratagems to shoot deep strikers, and then they can Flee and in their turn and focus their guns on you. Not to mention you'll be coming in with a lot less support from Deep strike with the beta rules because of the Power Level mess.

 

 

What I am saying is that "alpha strikes from reserves" (of all types) are too good. (IMO)  Assault out of deep strike Turn 1 is especially good for certain armies like BA, Khorne Demons, and Nids.  Long Range Alpha Strikes can be more easily avoided (IMO - maybe I just play with ample terrain) and frankly I think that GW's follow up to this might be "if you are firing a weapon that doesn't need LoS and you cannot draw LoS, then it's -1 to hit" to bring down Basilisks/Manticores and enable an opponent to mitigate that type of alpha strike a bit.

 

 

We're going in circles here but the thing is, unless you have a table full of LoS blocking terrain, and let's be realistic here, most tables are not like that... then "Long Range Alpha Strike" is not easy to avoid at all.

 

While Assault out of deep strike is actually terribly easy to prevent with bodies and placement... further, even failing to prevent Assault out of deep strike, you'll still get Overwatch, you'll still get to Flee and delete whatever just landed, and likely you'll only lose 1 or 2 units if the Assault is even successful and if the hit/wound-rolls go well for the assaulter.

[Deathwalker]

 

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

Thing is though those stratagems, "decent of angels" etc were designed to do exactly just that. ...and also blocking out areas from deep strike is incredibly easy ("flawless deployment"?? I dunno) ...you only need to space your units roughly 18" apart and you can measure them as many times as you want.

 

What about the shenanigans of Leman Russ shooting twice, having essentially unlimited CP now, or Fire Prisms using Linked Fire and actually deleting units before you can react.

 

You keep saying assault happens "before someone can react" but that's not really true at all. They can, easily, deploy to prevent that. They get Overwatch. Unlike shooting shenanigans the assaulting player still needs a boatload of luck just to have a chance to hit, there are stratagems to shoot deep strikers, and then they can Flee and in their turn and focus their guns on you. Not to mention you'll be coming in with a lot less support from Deep strike with the beta rules because of the Power Level mess.

 

 

What I am saying is that "alpha strikes from reserves" (of all types) are too good. (IMO)  Assault out of deep strike Turn 1 is especially good for certain armies like BA, Khorne Demons, and Nids.  Long Range Alpha Strikes can be more easily avoided (IMO - maybe I just play with ample terrain) and frankly I think that GW's follow up to this might be "if you are firing a weapon that doesn't need LoS and you cannot draw LoS, then it's -1 to hit" to bring down Basilisks/Manticores and enable an opponent to mitigate that type of alpha strike a bit.

 

 

Why not just say they cannot fire on turn 1?

And any enemy they target within 9 inches can fire on them?

[MeltaRange]

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

You asked if opponents enjoyed the gameplay. I ask, since when is fun so objective that we can make sweeping generalizations on what needs to change for fun? My opponents have never complained about Turn 1 assault from reserves more than Turn 1 non-LoS shooting, bad objective draws, poor terrain, good terrain, bad dice, good dice, forgetting to bring a unit, forgetting a special rule, misdeploying a shooting unit so it can't see, misdeploying a shooting unit so it gets shot to death Turn 1, not having enough points, having too many points, ect, ect...

 

It wasn't a hard and fast reality that deep strike wasn't fun to play against. But, now, my fun has been neutered, as my army has taken a big hit, and since most people's solution to "adapt" is "run more units that are better in other chapters", I don't think the rule is any good.

 

 

I am sorry whenever anyone in our tight-knit community isn't having fun anymore with the game.  After all, it takes a certain kind of person to be drawn to this game vs video games or whatever, not to mention the time spent assembling/painting/basing your models.  I do find it hard to believe that not being able to deep strike into the opponent on turn 1 drains ALL the fun, but to each their own.

[Indefragable]

Turn 1 Assaults were such a rarity in 7th that one of the true joys of 8th was that they were possible. It seemed like every type of army--fast, slow, shooty, stabby, warpy, undying--was finally going to have somewhat equal footing, rather than just MOAH SCATTER BIKEZ.

 

Feels like we're slipping back to 7th, and not necessarily in a good way. 

 

As I've said before, Deep Striking only in T2* is not terrible in and of itself, but the 9" restrictions and such need to be greatly slackened to compensate. Units in Reserve that are not deployed by T3 are auto destroyed. It is quite possible for an enemy unit to spread out enough to create 18" no-fly-zones for Deep Strikers well into T3. That's as much of a problem as uber all-powerful Alpha Strikes.

 

 

*STEEL RAIN defensive deep striking in your own deployment is not Deep Striking. That's called "you can't touch this".

[toaae]

 

 I do find it hard to believe that not being able to deep strike into the opponent on turn 1 drains ALL the fun, but to each their own.

 

You're being obtuse. I did not claim that I derive my fun from assaulting from reserves on turn 1, but that that I won't have as much fun not being able to, because "my army has taken a big hit." Jump pack marines don't have the luxury of starting on the table and running across it without sustaining massive casualties, no matter if you play with enough terrain or not. So I'm still left deep striking the units, but now have to wait an additional turn to do it, letting my opponent shoot up what I do have with impunity.

 

Furthermore, tying power level to the rule makes it incredibly dumb, as I'm now balancing both points and power level to build my list. That is not fun. They are two separate metrics with different value properties, and trying to maximize one while minimizing the other when they don't directly correspond in a consistent way is infuriating.

[MeltaRange]

 

We're going in circles here but the thing is, unless you have a table full of LoS blocking terrain, and let's be realistic here, most tables are not like that... then "Long Range Alpha Strike" is not easy to avoid at all.

 

While Assault out of deep strike is actually terribly easy to prevent with bodies and placement... further, even failing to prevent Assault out of deep strike, you'll still get Overwatch, you'll still get to Flee and delete whatever just landed, and likely you'll only lose 1 or 2 units if the Assault is even successful and if the hit/wound-rolls go well for the assaulter.

 

 

I do play on tables that will often have ~6-8 pieces of terrain that completely block LoS and we also play ITC rules that first floor of ruins block LoS.  So my experience may vary from yours...I freely admit that.

 

I also agree that preventing a deep strike assault is not terribly hard to prevent, but many armies are pigeonholed into taking certain units (Scouts/Create their own Null Deployment) in order to prevent a Turn 1 massacre.  My hope is that this change means we see more variety of units on the table.

 

By the way - if Assault from deep strike is so easy to prevent, why are you arguing for it?

[Deathwalker]

The power level ruling should have given you a heads up about what GW is really considering with these rules.

Power level does not reflect balance, it reflects sales

[toaae]

The power level ruling should have given you a heads up about what GW is really considering with these rules.

Power level does not reflect balance, it reflects sales

I think that's over cynical. To me, it's clear they think Power Level is easier to figure out at the table when deploying. That's true, but it ignores the reality that people are going to be figuring it out when writing their army list.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

We're going in circles here but the thing is, unless you have a table full of LoS blocking terrain, and let's be realistic here, most tables are not like that... then "Long Range Alpha Strike" is not easy to avoid at all.

 

While Assault out of deep strike is actually terribly easy to prevent with bodies and placement... further, even failing to prevent Assault out of deep strike, you'll still get Overwatch, you'll still get to Flee and delete whatever just landed, and likely you'll only lose 1 or 2 units if the Assault is even successful and if the hit/wound-rolls go well for the assaulter.

 

 

I do play on tables that will often have ~6-8 pieces of terrain that completely block LoS and we also play ITC rules that first floor of ruins block LoS.  So my experience may vary from yours...I freely admit that.

 

I also agree that preventing a deep strike assault is not terribly hard to prevent, but many armies are pigeonholed into taking certain units (Scouts/Create their own Null Deployment) in order to prevent a Turn 1 massacre.  My hope is that this change means we see more variety of units on the table.

 

By the way - if Assault from deep strike is so easy to prevent, why are you arguing for it?

 

 

We also use the first floor of ruins block LoS rule.

 

The reason it matters is because I can always at least deploy in the neutral zone, or at least have the choice to wait, or capitalize on sloppy deployment by an enemy. Further it means my opponent has to spread out, and not bring every scope to bear on me without a care, and he must assume he could get out flanked (cuz this is like scifi stuff man, otherwise it's just lines of guys standing across from each firing muskets until the charge haha... which terribly favors gunlines).

[MeltaRange]

 

We also use the first floor of ruins block LoS rule.

 

The reason it matters is because I can always at least deploy in the neutral zone, or at least have the choice to wait, or capitalize on sloppy deployment by an enemy. Further it means my opponent has to spread out, and not bring every scope to bear on me without a care, and he must assume he could get out flanked (cuz this is like scifi stuff man, otherwise it's just lines of guys standing across from each firing muskets until the charge haha... which terribly favors gunlines).

 

 

Right.  I guess where we differ is that I think that's too good to be able to achieve all of this while at the same time preventing your units from being shot at.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

We also use the first floor of ruins block LoS rule.

 

The reason it matters is because I can always at least deploy in the neutral zone, or at least have the choice to wait, or capitalize on sloppy deployment by an enemy. Further it means my opponent has to spread out, and not bring every scope to bear on me without a care, and he must assume he could get out flanked (cuz this is like scifi stuff man, otherwise it's just lines of guys standing across from each firing muskets until the charge haha... which terribly favors gunlines).

 

 

Right.  I guess where we differ is that I think that's too good to be able to achieve all of this while at the same time preventing your units from being shot at.

 

 

If that were the case than Blood Angels would be doing way better competitively, rather than just a cherry-picked "alpha unit" within a gunline.

[Helias_Tancred]

A limited number of armies, the ones who in the lore are known to be masters of what would be, on the gaming table, as a powerful deep strike from reserves ability (Genestealer Cults, BA, RG, etc) should still have the ability to strike fear into their opponents from the very onset of the battle.

[Indefragable]

A limited number of armies, the ones who in the lore are known to be masters of what would be, on the gaming table, as a powerful deep strike from reserves ability (Genestealer Cults, BA, RG, etc) should still have the ability to strike fear into their opponents from the very onset of the battle.

 

Well put, brother.

[Xerxus]

Blood Angels were not too strong in competitive play, that much is indisputable. All of our abilities could be played around by most armies. The assumption that it's OP to be able to charge without having to endure a turn of shooting is unfounded.

[Indefragable]

Blood Angels were not too strong in competitive play, that much is indisputable. All of our abilities could be played around by most armies. The assumption that it's OP to be able to charge without having to endure a turn of shooting is unfounded.

 

And...like so many things at the FLG/Tournament scene, it's because people cherry pick from a buffet of units and abuse the heck out of them.

 

Of course Captain Smash dropping out of orbit with a 3D6" re-rollable non-Overwatchable charge T1 feels OP when there's also an Azrael-buffed hellblaster line, and a Guilliman Assback parking lot on the table as well.

 

But when someone takes pure BA...suddenly the above Captain Smash scenario is a vitally necessary threat to keep the rest of the army alive.

[Deadnaughty]

 

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens, and if I DO get the first turn, I basically can't move as I await YOU to decide when you will bring down the pain, without being able to really do anything to thwart it besides just try and decide who's gonna get obliterated first.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

Question, and it's an honest question.

Why penalize the superior strategic commander because the other one did not consider something?

That's what these rules are doing. If games are being won "turn 1" and you fail to optimize your defences -knowing- that, who's fault is it?

WHY are DS plasma Scions killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

WHY are DS melee units with their host of already existing hoops and penalties killing your "tasty unit" in turn 1?

If you don't consider those questions, perhaps the fault lies not in the rules, but the player.

 

Here's the thing, movement is available to everyone, works the same way for everyone, the only difference is how you use your available movement.

Movement, by that maxim is never broken.

It forced very limited army builds and kills any army that can't bring that build. Aka cheap screens and infiltrate units to push out deepstrikers.

Limiting turn 1 deepstrikes opens up the field to a larger range of viable armies.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

If by larger range you mean more gunlines. As for 'viable' ...they were already plenty viable.

 

 

 

[brother_b]

Part of The issue is they are balancing this game based on tournament players, and tournament concerns. You know the people who have no problem spending the money to buy 8 plague crawlers, or six flyrants.

 

For every tournament game played how many actual games are played? 1000? 500? 10,000?

 

Most gamers want a set of guidelines, hence using points or power levels, to be able to play friendly games. Open or narrative play is not the answer for the typical gamer in my opinion. What is the answer is direct input from the community as a whole. Apparently that is what is happening, but the only people GW mention on the community page seems to be the tournament organizers and gamers.

 

That's the wrong fan base to draw from for the informative decisions to be made about the game . It's up to the casual gamer to sound off. That means us.