Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[Deadnaughty]

The 0-3 change hurts the Flyrants. The deepstrike change doesn't do nearly the same.

Check up on  https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/04/02/chapter-tactics-61-adepticon-and-custodes-and-flyrants-oh-my/ to hear from the Adepticon winner how he often deployed his Flyrants on the table. 

They don't need the deepstrike.

 

As for Nick's comments. It all resolves around the meta changing to less shooting from shooting armies and more tough models who can survive and cross the board to attack them.

 

I don't see it happening. Are there armies of tough assault units that everyone missed? (Custodes bikes are tough but thats 1 army and to expensive to ally in for most).

And why will shooting armies stop trying to bring as much dakka as possible while having cheap screens?

[Xenith]

 

They don't need the deepstrike.

 

 

Agree. There's a lot to be said for threat overload. You drop multiple non-warlord flyrants and a non threatening protected warlord, that warlord is likely to survive.

 

The same applies to BA. How can we get our stuff across the table without relying on deepstrike charge?

[Bremon]

 

Predator Destroyers and predator Anihillators

Actually Predator Destructor: Autcannon, heavy bolter sponsons.

Predator Annihilator: Twin lascannon, lascannon sponsons

The predators with mixed loadouts never had names, nor are the baal predator weapon combinations options for the regular predator.

 

Long story short, because the killshot stratagem refers to a predator (and not to the PREDATOR keyword) baal predators cannot use the stratagem.

Annihilators and Destructors could both have las or HB sponsons; the name was based on the turret weapon.

 

Killshot is one of multiple reasons that I’m shocked we were one of the only armies that didn’t get our FAQ updated. Pretty pathetic on GWs part.

[MeltaRange]

So just curious, is this thread now just about "can we make mono BA a top tournament army?"  If so that's cool, but I just want to make sure so I can show myself out.  

[Deathwalker]

So just curious, is this thread now just about "can we make mono BA a top tournament army?"  If so that's cool, but I just want to make sure so I can show myself out.  

I feel the core of the discussion is till about how DS melee gets nerfed, but conversations, by their very nature meander a bit.

[Charlo]

Games are always balanced around the highest level of play. This makes total sense as these are the people playing for money, prestige etc.

 

Bill and Bob who play weekly with the same armies bar a few new units at the FLGC aren't really a factor in deciding how mechanics work as when they exploit the broken ones... It's not a problem.

 

So, yes, the changes mean that this discussion will naturally be focused around high level play.

[dread05]

 

 

They don't need the deepstrike.

 

 

Agree. There's a lot to be said for threat overload. You drop multiple non-warlord flyrants and a non threatening protected warlord, that warlord is likely to survive.

 

The same applies to BA. How can we get our stuff across the table without relying on deepstrike charge?

 

 

Thematically, there is this: "Unusually for a Space Marine Chapter, the Blood Angels command sufficient Land Raiders to deploy these mighty vehicles as line transports, rather than elite support units. How the Blood Angels acquired so many Land Raiders is a mystery outside the Chapter."

 

Competitively, I have no clue :P

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

Alright so this is why I think the beta rule is too heavy handed:

I do play competitively but honestly most people in my city take pretty deadly lists even in "casual play" so it really doesn't matter. My list that I had been seeing the most success with is this

Batt 1

Capt

Lieutenant

 

Scout squad

Tac squad

Tac squad

 

Dev squad - all lascannons

Dev squad - all lascannons

 

Batt 2

 

Capt Slam

Libby

 

Scout squad

Tac squad

Tac squad

 

Death co - 15 dudes all bolter/chainsword

Sang Guard - 10 dudes with fists/swords

 

So in general I would have a decent amount of footprint on the board with some scouts to push out my screens further. Every scout/tac squad has a missile launcher so even if both squads of lascannons get killed I still have some hidden punch. A majority of my games would go something like this:

 

If I get turn 1 - forlorn fury DC up the board with no support to punch a big giant hole in my opponent's screens. Shoot one squad, charge another, and spend 3 CP to fight again and "take a prisoner" (if possible) so they aren't shot up in my opponent's turn. This part of my tactics is not at all affected by the beta rule.

 

If I don't get turn 1 - I usually try to deploy as much as possible out of line of sight because I do not count on getting turn 1, so usually only lose a few squads here or there. DC are still on the board but hidden somewhere. In my turn I would either use them to take care of anything that got into my own back lines, UWOF them up the board to punch a hole, or just move and advance if that's all I needed to do.

 

Turn 2 sees the Sang Guard/Capt/Libby all drop in and exploit the hole created by suicide DC.

 

Sometimes, if my opponent messed up their movement, I'd drop these guys in turn 1 to exploit a hole or what have you. This did not happen often but sometimes dudes just over extend their cool stuff or I need to deal with a Primarch equivalent and my lascannons are gone.

 

This beta rule takes away all options for me if something goes wrong. It holds my opponent's hand if they over extend or leave their back line open. What it doesn't do is stop an Imperial Guard leaf blower army from blowing me away turn 1. It doesn't stop Magnus warp-timing into my lines. It doesn't stop 40+ cultists or several units of Berserkers infiltrating up, it doesn't stop lightning fast Eldar or Tyranids from doing what they do either. If the point was to stop alpha strikes, it fails completely. It rewards poor tactical play while actively removing options for me to deal with threats as needed.

 

For everyone saying "You just need more LOS blocking terrain!": Tell that to mortars, wyverns, basilisks, Eldar shenanigans, Hive Guard, etc. There isn't enough LOS blocking terrain in existence to save an elite, close combat army from two rounds of strong shooting unless we all start playing on zone mortalis boards.

 

I really was hoping to be able to everything I could to show BA could be competitive this edition but they have just taken so much from how the army operates that I'm now borrowing two whole armies from friends to go an 80-man event on April 28th that I've already paid and gotten accommodations for. I'm not spending money and energy to have my face beat in for two days straight; in no universe is that fun for anyone.

[Indefragable]

Games are always balanced around the highest level of play. This makes total sense as these are the people playing for money, prestige etc.

 

Bill and Bob who play weekly with the same armies bar a few new units at the FLGC aren't really a factor in deciding how mechanics work as when they exploit the broken ones... It's not a problem.

 

So, yes, the changes mean that this discussion will naturally be focused around high level play.

 

See, this is why I'm a bit sour about the Beta rules in general.

 

It's a bandaid on a crack in the dam.

 

The next big tournament of 2018 that uses Beta rules is going to have some schmoe who exploits other loopholes or still spams x y and z rather than just x.

 

So will the Fall FAQ have Beta rules to address those new exploits? And will they be even more fundamentally sweeping?

 

I just don't get why they're nerfing entire classes of units and capabilities rather than focusing on why certain bad apples are in fact rotten. Are Dark Reapers suddenly not so powerful now?

 

In the live stream announcement they talk about "the Law of Unintended Consequences." I am not convinced that they took that law to heart when coming up with these Beta rules.

 

No Deepstriking outside of your DZ Turn 1 means that Deep Striking should be adjusted to < 9" on Turn 2 etc... Look at it wholistically.

[Spagunk]

 

BA definitely do not have an incentive to go straight shooting without going soup. If they were to make it so Baal preds had their own killshot stratagem or they dropped us a strat for using land raiders and ravens to help, that would give us a clue. But as it stands, we don't really have too much to help us in shooting that other armies don't already have or have better of. Especially since other marines armies have more shooting bonuses or more ways to mitigate taking damage.

BA don't have to be good at everything, they would really be busted if they were. Why use Melee with a DA army, they don't get the benefit BA do. I don't know why you feel the need for Baal preds to get their own killshot strat, the normal one is fine. I do agree that with the rule of 3 it should be 3 -vehicles- rather than 3 predators though.

 

My only real beef with the DS ruling is that it was specifically designed to hamper DS SHOOTING alpha strike's, but due to bad wording nefted DS MELEE strikes that were already on an uphill and potentially costly path already. 

 

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I did not declare that we SHOULD have good shooting. I declared that we DON'T have good shooting. The nearest +1 to hit (shooting) we have is either a character buff or a strat for sternguard/termies, not an army bonus. The point is that because we don't have as good of shooting as other marines do, we can't be expected to pick up the slack by adding more shooting. If you aren't good at something, you don't doubledown on that thing you are bad at, you add things that cover your deficiency. The most cost effective way is to add Guard (marines are a bit pricey at the moment) since their shooting is made up for by lots of strats and army bonuses built into their army. Alternatively you COULD add more ravens/land raiders etc but you're spending way more points than you need to when you can just add guard for pittance and get incredible strategic value for low point costs. But then rose by any other name doesn't smell as sweet when you graft it to a lemon tree...or something like that.

 

But if adding guard/quality shooting is the solution, then I humbly ask that you donate to my GoFundMe account to buy me some AstraMilitarum/Shooting figures to add to my army so that I can help solve my assault woes.

[Jolemai]

Things are getting prickly again folks, calm it down please.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Playing a doubles tournament tomorrow using the new FAQ. The good news is my teammate has a very shooty Ultramarines Primaris army, so hopefully that should compensate for the beta DS rule.

[Ceril]

Seems we can deepstrike outside deployment zone if the unit in question was first set up normally:

https://m.facebook.com/1575682476085719/photos/a.1576243776029589.1073741828.1575682476085719/2013246645662631/?type=3

It's in the comment, some screenshot so can't copy paste.

[Happy-inquisitor]

The 0-3 change hurts the Flyrants. The deepstrike change doesn't do nearly the same.

Check up on  https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/04/02/chapter-tactics-61-adepticon-and-custodes-and-flyrants-oh-my/ to hear from the Adepticon winner how he often deployed his Flyrants on the table. 

They don't need the deepstrike.

 

As for Nick's comments. It all resolves around the meta changing to less shooting from shooting armies and more tough models who can survive and cross the board to attack them.

 

I don't see it happening. Are there armies of tough assault units that everyone missed? (Custodes bikes are tough but thats 1 army and to expensive to ally in for most).

And why will shooting armies stop trying to bring as much dakka as possible while having cheap screens?

 

Nick's argument is one I have seen elsewhere - that the reason AM stopped dominating had less to do with 1st turn assaults and more to do with army wide -1 to hit factions with their miserable BS 4+. Nothing changed those -1 to hit penalties so AM still have the same issues. I would not be so quick to dismiss his opinions, you do not get his consistent winning record without having a good understanding of how the game works.

 

As for flyrants the issue was that in a match-up where they needed to come out of reserves they could do so - they therefore had no fear of shooting armies that go first so the list had one less match-up to fear. The list that won Caledonian Uprising and which was the inspiration for those Adeptacon-dominating lists could if it wanted deploy nothing but worthless trash units (mucolid spores and minimal ripper swarms) to negate any turn 1 assault or shooting from an opponent.

[Shaezus]

The only thing which irks about this is that they haven't given similar treatment to non-DS T1 charge units, thinking of Shining Spears, Druhkari and Harlequin stuff mainly here. Plus Nids with their boosts to charge range on 'stealers and advance and charge. It seems plainly illogical to nerf DS and not do the same to these.

 

Tbf the new DS beta could be worse, though it will probably be tweaked anyway if current feedback is anything to go by. The big hit is to SG using char support.

 

Personally I've always felt that using SG and DC in the same army is a trap for the BA player. With DoA only usable once per turn anyway, the same could be said about DSing any two or more units on T1.

 

That clarification on ignoring vertical charge distance with jump packs is golden. Jump packs are still awesome.

[Deadnaughty]

The only thing which irks about this is that they haven't given similar treatment to non-DS T1 charge units, thinking of Shining Spears, Druhkari and Harlequin stuff mainly here. Plus Nids with their boosts to charge range on 'stealers and advance and charge. It seems plainly illogical to nerf DS and not do the same to these.

 

Tbf the new DS beta could be worse, though it will probably be tweaked anyway if current feedback is anything to go by. The big hit is to SG using char support.

 

Personally I've always felt that using SG and DC in the same army is a trap for the BA player. With DoA only usable once per turn anyway, the same could be said about DSing any two or more units on T1.

 

That clarification on ignoring vertical charge distance with jump packs is golden. Jump packs are still awesome.

DC for clearing chaff. SG for more elite stuff.

DC don't need DoA since they get Forlorn hope.

[BaldrickRSA]

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

I know GW is trying to get rid of the turn one assault pain for those HtH armies, but all they have done is delay the inevitable. I will make some minor changes to my lists, maybe have two or three RBs with twin linked Ass cannons, drive up turn one, either pop smoke or, if flanking open fire with three twin linked Ass Cannons on the enemy. Its about surviving turn one now, and then unloading hell in turn two. Its a pain in the :cuss, but I like my assault BA list. I think the Beta rules suck. Why would I want to deploy from the skies in my own deployment zone? Then I may as well just start in my deployment zone, and run up the table. Not great, not ideal. 

 

The way I see it, either GW will implement the Beta rules as is, or not at all. I cannot really see anything in-between. Anyone know when these Beta rules will be 'final' or not?

 

Really not happy with these beta rules, but guess I will have to find a work around if they are here to stay. I stopped playing for 6th and 7th Ed due to the :cuss rulesets, I am not about to give up on 8th Ed, but this FAQ Beta rules on tactical reserves is testing me.............

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

I know GW is trying to get rid of the turn one assault pain for those HtH armies, but all they have done is delay the inevitable. I will make some minor changes to my lists, maybe have two or three RBs with twin linked Ass cannons, drive up turn one, either pop smoke or, if flanking open fire with three twin linked Ass Cannons on the enemy. Its about surviving turn one now, and then unloading hell in turn two. Its a pain in the , but I like my assault BA list. I think the Beta rules suck. Why would I want to deploy from the skies in my own deployment zone? Then I may as well just start in my deployment zone, and run up the table. Not great, not ideal. 

 

The way I see it, either GW will implement the Beta rules as is, or not at all. I cannot really see anything in-between. Anyone know when these Beta rules will be 'final' or not?

 

Really not happy with these beta rules, but guess I will have to find a work around if they are here to stay. I stopped playing for 6th and 7th Ed due to the rulesets, I am not about to give up on 8th Ed, but this FAQ Beta rules on tactical reserves is testing me.............

 

I think a lot of us are unhappy with these beta rules.  Just take some deep breaths and write the GW FAQ team, which is what they asked us to do: 40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

I just played in a tournament with them and I still think they're terrible. Shooting in 8th edition is so devastating... not only are tanks and artillery actually, finally good - they can shoot twice and have even more unlimited CP shenanigans now. Terrain rules are bad, intervening terrain is no longer a thing, AP modifiers, soo much more weight of fire... small elite armies couldn't stand up to that prior to the FAQ.

[MeltaRange]

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

 

Did you opponent love it?  Did he have fun having all of that dropping out of the sky (with no chance to target those units himself) and smashing in his face in?

[toaae]

 

 

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

Did you opponent love it? Did he have fun having all of that dropping out of the sky (with no chance to target those units himself) and smashing in his face in?

Yes.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

 

Did you opponent love it?  Did he have fun having all of that dropping out of the sky (with no chance to target those units himself) and smashing in his face in?

 

 

Nobody "loves" losing units. On average an alpha strike assault is going to charge 1 unit though, after eating Overwatch... in my tournament over the weekend my partner had a Redemptor dreadnought that died turn 1 in every game... he never shot once with it. I'm sure he loved it.

 

Several armies also have stratagems to shoot deep strikers in their own turn, and now basically unlimited banks of CP.

[Bremon]

 

 

Hello all,

 

I am not happy about the FAQ for my BAs. I loved dropping Lemartes, two kitted out DC units and a priest or Librarian (with JP) (depending on the list I am playing) in my first turn, supported by my units already on the table. My one list has a Captain Smash equivalent, he will also have to wait for turn two now.

 

Did you opponent love it? Did he have fun having all of that dropping out of the sky (with no chance to target those units himself) and smashing in his face in?

considering only 1-2 of those makes the charge on average, his opponent probably loves it more than we love having our ground units get obliterated by shooting, and then units falling back from combat without penalty and shooting our CC units to ribbons.

[MeltaRange]

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, and makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

 

Literally the only thing wrong with it is that it's done from Reserves on Turn 1 and can be combined with Decent of Angels, Honour the Chapter, FLY and other shenanigans to completely ruin someone before they can react if they don't have a completely optimized army & flawless deployment.  That's ultimately my problem with it - it forces certain army compositions to even give you a shot, makes the deployment phase take way longer than it should as I meticulously place my screens, and if I DO get the first turn, I basically can't move as I await YOU to decide when you will bring down the pain, without being able to really do anything to thwart it besides just try and decide who's gonna get obliterated first.

 

Again, this is just my .02.

 

 

 

If you give up an entire movement phase to see where I choose to land you've already lost. You use your first movement phase to move out, pushing those 9" bubbles ever further away from your own lines. You open up on the units of mine that are on the board as they will likely be easy kills anyway. You cripple my ability to both hit you hard AND hold objectives. You do not have to have an optimized army to be able to do this.

[MeltaRange]

I edited my post because that one phrase was taking away from the actual point I was trying to make.  It's really something that's more of a Nid tactic than a BA one. (if you spread out too much, non-deep striking flyers can just fly over your screens, forcing you to keep a tight formation)