MeltaRange Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 So you've suffered only a handful of defeats since 8th, and one since the Codex drop...and you had a hard time vs. one single kind of Guard...but there's no issue at all with the BA codex? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but doesn't that kind of sound a little ridiculous in context? Not talking about you specifically brother_b, but the codex is dead talk is just maybe a biiiiit exaggerated. I've lost more than half my games since the codex dropped. Does my anecdote prove the codex is now dead? No. His point was despite playing in an area that he dominates in, his lack of answers to long range shooting is only going to be exacerbated by the beta rule. Those of us who don't stroll to easy victories are going to be seriously outmatched by a similar style of play. His point is unfortunately moot. Because, he can actually take tools provided to him by the codex to help him deal with long range shooting. He can utilize better and more complex tactics than "3 Scouts and a Little Deepstrike". This is step one in reducing the arms race to alpha strike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 So you've suffered only a handful of defeats since 8th, and one since the Codex drop...and you had a hard time vs. one single kind of Guard...but there's no issue at all with the BA codex? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but doesn't that kind of sound a little ridiculous in context? Not talking about you specifically brother_b, but the codex is dead talk is just maybe a biiiiit exaggerated. I've lost more than half my games since the codex dropped. Does my anecdote prove the codex is now dead? No. His point was despite playing in an area that he dominates in, his lack of answers to long range shooting is only going to be exacerbated by the beta rule. Those of us who don't stroll to easy victories are going to be seriously outmatched by a similar style of play. His point is unfortunately moot. Because, he can actually take tools provided to him by the codex to help him deal with long range shooting. He can utilize better and more complex tactics than "3 Scouts and a Little Deepstrike". This is step one in reducing the arms race to alpha strike. The top armies at Adepticon had no trouble with long range shooting... cuz they had TONS of Imperial Guard with some Sanguinary Guard or DC. The shooty options in the BA codex can certainly be used, they just don't come with a beneficial Chapter Tactic / relics / characters / stratagems built around that concept - and they are so much less efficient, in every way, to just allying in IG or taking a true shooty codex:SM detachment. If your "meta" is small or unchanging and you are doing well then who cares, move along; but against a wide variety of opponents, at some point - "points efficiency" matters... and we are on the losing end of that already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluejayJunior Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 If you watched the GW video on the FAQ, they want feedback. A lot of these rules are beta and they want to know what we think, get to it!: 40kfaq@gwplc.com My thoughts, this [beta deep strike rule] is a reaction to Soup + BA alpha strike that was all over Adepticon. Like Cult Ambush, mono-faction BA should be exempt because that is, what they are designed to do. A lot of times waiting to deploy turn 2, or starting on the board is fine. But against gun lines or overwhelming shots it's a major disadvantage. If you don't get first turn, that's 2 turns of unmolested shooting you've got to eat. My conclusion: mono-faction BA should be able to deploy as normal. If your army consists of any faction other than BA (ie Soup) then you deploy per the FAQ. This is what I'm writing to suggest. Definitely provide feedback to the Beta Rules. But everyone remember that polite, constructive feedback based on actually playing with the rules will probably be more beneficial than anything combative or just theoryhammering about the rule. Hmmm don't think I've said anything combative here. And I've done TONS of actual playing. Granted not with the beta yet, but I've waited to DS on turn 2 many times... enough to know that sometimes it's smart and sometimes it's pure folly. Without IG spam to tank wounds and create shots you can't always afford to eat an entire new round of shooting before having an answer. I know this from actual playing. Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were combative. I was more just piggy-backing off your comment to try to remind everyone who sends feedback to be constructive. I apologize. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxus Posted April 18, 2018 Author Share Posted April 18, 2018 The people who suggest that the previous lists that relied on deepstriking were somehow considerably less tactically complex than some other lists available to BA have probably never tried to play said list. Assault is the most complex aspect of this game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 @BluejayJunior - Oh Ok my misunderstanding... I guess clearly I am still fired up! The people who suggest that the previous lists that relied on deepstriking were somehow considerably less tactically complex than some other lists available to BA have probably never tried to play said list. Assault is the most complex aspect of this game. Not only that, shooting requires no risk at all in the current game. Now with the FAQ even the risk of alpha strike has been removed. You should see all of the celebrating and high-5ing going on in the FB Astra Militarum group lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeltaRange Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 The top armies at Adepticon had no trouble with long range shooting... cuz they had TONS of Imperial Guard with some Sanguinary Guard or DC. The shooty options in the BA codex can certainly be used, they just don't come with a beneficial Chapter Tactic / relics / characters / stratagems built around that concept - and they are so much less efficient, in every way, to just allying in IG or taking a true shooty codex:SM detachment. If your "meta" is small or unchanging and you are doing well then who cares, move along; but against a wide variety of opponents, at some point - "points efficiency" matters... and we are on the losing end of that already. If you are talking about eeking every last decimal point of points efficiency out in an army, then you'll simply go find the new "efficient unit" after the changes. To that type of player, why does it matter if it's a BA Sang Guard, or a DA Black Knight? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 The top armies at Adepticon had no trouble with long range shooting... cuz they had TONS of Imperial Guard with some Sanguinary Guard or DC. The shooty options in the BA codex can certainly be used, they just don't come with a beneficial Chapter Tactic / relics / characters / stratagems built around that concept - and they are so much less efficient, in every way, to just allying in IG or taking a true shooty codex:SM detachment. If your "meta" is small or unchanging and you are doing well then who cares, move along; but against a wide variety of opponents, at some point - "points efficiency" matters... and we are on the losing end of that already. If you are talking about eeking every last decimal point of points efficiency out in an army, then you'll simply go find the new "efficient unit" after the changes. To that type of player, why does it matter if it's a BA Sang Guard, or a DA Black Knight? I don't think it matters to them at all, they just want the latest/cheapest/best... but because of them we all deal with the consequences. But even in the slightly less "competitive" environments points efficiency still does matter. Off the shelf IG or Eldar or Death Guard with poxwalker spam are all very points efficient and can provide very hard counters to small elite armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeltaRange Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Could someone DM me a Guard list that's now going to be an insurmountable mountain because of the changes? For me, that's much less hard than Nids, Craftworlds, and now Drukhari. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Could someone DM me a Guard list that's now going to be an insurmountable mountain because of the changes? For me, that's much less hard than Nids, Craftworlds, and now Drukhari. Not sure what point you're trying to make here? "Insurmountable mountain" I dunno... but IG definitely were good, and points efficient, and now they'll face less risk and get more CP. That said, yeah Nids, Eldar and DE are also really tough nuts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I haven’t seen anyone mention it, maybe it was just my group that was doing it wrong, but the ruling that if a squad is on a piece of terrain and takes up the whole thing can’t be charged is just dumb to me. I guess I get it because they’re not within 1” if they charge from a lower level up, and can’t be placed so can’t wttack, but that makes my combat heavy lists basically worthless against any opponent who stands a floor up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I always played it like that. Not sure why people are so surprised about that clarification. It's stupid and things should probably get measured from the actual model instead of the base but rules are rules. Normally you have enough ranged support to clear some space on ruins before you charge anyway so unless you're playing Daemons or want to charge with a unit with a huge base like Knights or Greater Daemons or whatever it shouldn't really matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5059589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_Saurus_Rex Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 So just got my first game in with the new FAQ playing against Dark Eldar. He won 1st turn and was in my back lines turn 1 with 2 units of Reaver jet bikes and three flyers. Normally in this situation I'd drop in behind him and make him deal with me on two fronts. He'd basically abandoned his backfield so it was wide open. As it was I was forced to land my deep strikes in my own deployment zone or risk being tabled in turn 2. Instead I was tabled in turn 4. What was the point of this rule again? It literally rewards poor tactics in favor of bumrushing your opponent for a quicker victory while saving you from having to worry about your own backlines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeblerartillery Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Post this to the GW feedback site. Great analysis based on actually using the new rules Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 So just got my first game in with the new FAQ playing against Dark Eldar. He won 1st turn and was in my back lines turn 1 with 2 units of Reaver jet bikes and three flyers. Normally in this situation I'd drop in behind him and make him deal with me on two fronts. He'd basically abandoned his backfield so it was wide open. As it was I was forced to land my deep strikes in my own deployment zone or risk being tabled in turn 2. Instead I was tabled in turn 4. What was the point of this rule again? It literally rewards poor tactics in favor of bumrushing your opponent for a quicker victory while saving you from having to worry about your own backlines. DE are fast as heck now... sorry about the loss. Make sure you email the FAQ team: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com The new DS really hurts single codex armies, not just Blood Angels... but we're all facing the consequences of the net-listers building super IG spam + Alpha Strike that can literally cover every base and have an answer to everything. I really think the solution to everyone's problem would be, use the Beta DS rule - but make MONO-Faction armies exempt. Soup armies have the wounds and firepower to wait until turn 2 to answer, small elite armies are already struggling in 8th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwalker Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 So just got my first game in with the new FAQ playing against Dark Eldar. He won 1st turn and was in my back lines turn 1 with 2 units of Reaver jet bikes and three flyers. Normally in this situation I'd drop in behind him and make him deal with me on two fronts. He'd basically abandoned his backfield so it was wide open. As it was I was forced to land my deep strikes in my own deployment zone or risk being tabled in turn 2. Instead I was tabled in turn 4. What was the point of this rule again? It literally rewards poor tactics in favor of bumrushing your opponent for a quicker victory while saving you from having to worry about your own backlines. DE are fast as heck now... sorry about the loss. Make sure you email the FAQ team: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com The new DS really hurts single codex armies, not just Blood Angels... but we're all facing the consequences of the net-listers building super IG spam + Alpha Strike that can literally cover every base and have an answer to everything. I really like think the solution to everyone's problem would be, use the Beta DS rule - but make MONO-Faction armies exempt. Soup armies have the wounds and firepower to wait until turn 2 to answer, small elite armies are already struggling in 8th. It hurts any army that uses DS as a delivery method for a (possible) melee based Alpha strike. That 9 inch exclusion zone is -painful, and shoe horns people into running stratagems or even characters (out of the icebox Lemartes, Daddy, need's ma re-rolls) that mitigate the chance of failure as much as possible. This is the conversation that goes on in my head about this: Player 1: "Hey, can we use jump packs the way they are supposed to be used" GW: Sure. Player two: "WAAA, I got my tank killed by DS" GW: "Hmm, perhaps we should put an exclusion zone, how about 50/50?" P2: "WAAAAHHHH that's too easy, make it more likely to fail" GW: "Err, ok" P1: "Say what now?, errr, ok" Puts plasma guns on DS capable troops P2: "WAAAAHHHH, DS killed me before I could act" P1: looks at free overwatch against charges and auspex scan capable troops against shooting DS "sure mate, anything else?" P2: "Yeah, I don't want you to be able to do it on T1 AT ALL" GW: "Ok, how about we beta that idea" P1: "Oh for crying out loud" How about this: Fog of descent. Jump capable troops deployed on the field as part of normal deployment cannot be shot in turn 1. That way I can still move my JP troops up, and you can't shoot them. Cool huh? -end sarcasm- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Tbh, I’m having a lot of trouble with sticking to close combat. Like gw clearly wants this to be a shooting game like bolt action or something, I’m really not sure why they keep making models with swords and stuff if they’re going to make them insanely more difficult to use and really less effective than a gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_b Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Rule of 3 vs. IG: 3 predators vs. 3 squads of tanks, how many is that, 9? Sure it's an extreme but it speaks to the problems with this FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 No point getting that fourth Predator for Kilkshot protection then :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 No point getting that fourth Predator for Kilkshot protection then Yup. And this in a nutshell is the problem with the marine stratagems. You need to bring 3 preds to unlock it, and as soon as one dies (before you've even acted) you lose access... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 No point getting that fourth Predator for Kilkshot protection then Yup. And this in a nutshell is the problem with the marine stratagems. You need to bring 3 preds to unlock it, and as soon as one dies (before you've even acted) you lose access... Not to get off topic but the Eldar Fire Prism version of killshot(linked fire) is totally bonkers and really needs to get toned down... they only need 2 (not 3) vehicles, can reroll both hits and wounds then every prism cannon that's linked (60" range) can fire at that target, and it's only 1CP... and those tanks have nasty shooting. Needless to say I hate those things! ... and they have the fly keyword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 My buddy runs three fire prisms and tells me Baal preds would be op if they could use killshot... sorry to go off topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 No point getting that fourth Predator for Kilkshot protection then :(Wow, I hadn’t even thought of this... worst part is we didn’t get an update to our FAQ, so we don’t even know if Baal Preds are intended to benefit from killshot; that would fix this issue for us (once B Preds get a hypothetical cost reduction in Chapter Approved). Razor spam isn’t effected so Raven Guard continue to be the Emperor’s chosen while we have our advantages whittled away. My buddy runs three fire prisms and tells me Baal preds would be op if they could use killshot... sorry to go off topic Seems like the type of guy who would find Forlorn Fury OP but has no problem with Strike From the Shadows. At least Fire and Fade can’t embark into transports anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 He is actually really nice, but thinks some BA stuff is OP because i beat him really bad a few times before he had eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/19/the-big-faq-words-from-the-playtesters/ All the grossest waac and Soup spammers are behind this FAQ. Mike Brandt's "Blood Angels" have tons of IG to tank wounds and cover every base, they can easily afford to wait a turn to deliver. Times like these I hate that everyone's choice is being dictated by the tournament community. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 tl;dr some playtesters like what we did Well, d'uh. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346280-spring-faq-is-out-and-its-bad-news/page/9/#findComment-5060460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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