BA Base of fire

[Buggane]

Hi All

 

With the new FAQ it looks like our base of fire is going to become more important, both in terms of needing to stick and needing to clear chaff now the inceptors are either staying at home or taking longer to get down. So pretty basic really, what do people use for anti-tank and chaff? I'm still in the early stages of building my army so interested to know what is effective...

 

Are we talking aggressors? Twin AC Razorbacks? Baal preds (Please?!). What about the dakka stormtalon? And then what are peoples approaches to anti tank, SS72 seems to be going for predators, but i see lots of lists with devastators in them, as well as storm ravens though i don't see how you can build redundancy in with them. Hellblasters not so much.

 

Cheers

 

Bug

[BluejayJunior]

Hellblasters can be decent if you keep a captain with them for rerolling 1s, but they aren't great as your only anti tank. For that, I've been thinking about Predators, Devastators, heavy weapon Tacticals, dreadnoughts with TwinLC.

 

Baal Preds might be good anti-chaff, but I think you'd need other vehicles to take some of the heat off them. I mentioned the possibility of Aggressors in another thread. Anything else with assault cannons. Chainsword DC using Forlorn Fury can also clear chaff, but that relies on getting first turn.

 

I'm trying to make my Repulsor work. It covers both roles (even with the LC options) and can be used to protect other Primaris units. But it's expensive and will draw a ton of fire quickly. I'll definitely need other threats on the board either take some fire off it or take advantage of it tanking all the heavy shooting. 

 

Most of this is just theorycrafting from me so far. 

[Paladin777]

I recently got a lascannon dread and plan on getting more. I was light (read: nonexistent) in the long ranged anti-tank anyway.

[Diagramdude]

3 Predators with Killshot is extremely potent anti tank.

[Bremon]

Killshot is also nerfed by the rule of 3. One dies and you have two expensive las platforms. Our special snowflake predator is overpriced as well. The predator autocannon is a great piece of kit though.

 

Aggressors, Inceptors, and (my favourite) AC Razorbacks are our most efficient anti-personnel. DC are our best anti-chaff in melee form.

 

Las Devs and las Razorbacks are our best anti-tank. Reasonably costed, ablative wounds, and reduced drops. Missile launchers in tac squads are reasonable for troop tax, and Devs are good with a single plasma cannon to use the Signum.

[The Unseen]

I think killshot, unless you run 4 preds, has always been a trap.

 

I'll second las devs though.

Make sure to give them a few ablative wounds too.

 

Missile launchers are sadly trash.

Frag missiles are pathetic, and Krak really struggles vs T8 vehicles and 2+ armor.

Maybe include 1 just for Flakk

[Kallas]

Killshot is also nerfed by the rule of 3. One dies and you have two expensive las platforms. Our special snowflake predator is overpriced as well. The predator autocannon is a great piece of kit though.

Predators really aren't that bad. I mean, they're not Wave Serpents or Leman Russ and they could do with getting something tweaked, but they're pretty solid as a baseline.

 

A Destructor (Autocannon/Heavy Bolters) is only 150pts and brings a respectable amount of firepower and resilience. Really the main problem with the Predator is that Razorbacks can do basically the same thing (Twin Las/Twin HB) with a minor cost increase and massive resilience increase.

 

Seriously though, I'm loving my Killshot. It's usually either Twin Las/HB, or PAC/HB: they're damn solid.

 

I wouldn't say no to +1 T or Power of the Machine Spirit (y'know, because they're supposed to be rapid attack vehicles...)

[Sea-People]

Assault cannon razorbacks are a must after the beta change in my book. They are fairly sturdy and can clear lots of chaff in one turn. I'd imagine any opponent with a balanced list will struggle to kill 4 razorbacks in one turn (maybe one or two but thems the breaks). Eliminate screening units T1, charge in and do the business from on high turn 2 is the new way to go IMO.

[Bremon]

 

Killshot is also nerfed by the rule of 3. One dies and you have two expensive las platforms. Our special snowflake predator is overpriced as well. The predator autocannon is a great piece of kit though.

Predators really aren't that bad. I mean, they're not Wave Serpents or Leman Russ and they could do with getting something tweaked, but they're pretty solid as a baseline.

 

A Destructor (Autocannon/Heavy Bolters) is only 150pts and brings a respectable amount of firepower and resilience. Really the main problem with the Predator is that Razorbacks can do basically the same thing (Twin Las/Twin HB) with a minor cost increase and massive resilience increase.

 

Seriously though, I'm loving my Killshot. It's usually either Twin Las/HB, or PAC/HB: they're damn solid.

 

I wouldn't say no to +1 T or Power of the Machine Spirit (y'know, because they're supposed to be rapid attack vehicles...)

Heavy bolters are quite plentiful in our codex as is, las sponsons usually seem more valuable to me on a predator (aside from Baal Pred). Ive found assault cannons to be one of the best heavy weapons we have access to (and it doesn’t hurt that they look pretty cool too lol)so I’d basically always advocate for Razorbacks instead at this point; fewer drops, more targets, and a Predator doesn’t afford us much now that front 12 and Baal front 13 is non existent. Our Furioso dreads also suffer from the notion that AV 11/12/13 is all T7 while apparently AV14 is T8. The system lacks granularity at this point and realistically GW needs to grow a spine and be willing to push things like a land raider to T9; you don’t see them on the table as is, some extra defense to lascannons and missile launchers would be welcome and would leave room for more nuance in other vehicles.

[Diagramdude]

I was going to make an argument in support of Predators as anti-tank but then I remembered the Sicaran Venator... untouched by the FAQ unlike the Fire Raptor. The Venator is a bargain for how deadly it against vehicles. Even if you don't outright destroy the target, you stick it with -1 to hit during it's next turn.

 

It's also worth noting the Venator gives you access to the Relic of Ancient Glory stratagem, which lets friendly ASTARTES models within 6" of the Relic unit to reroll the first failed hit roll of the fight phase. Since the Venator can move and shoot without penalty, it can potentially move up to provide this buff to the frontline vanguard units.

[Morticon]

Was just about to post about the Venator. :tu: 

Do it. 

[Buggane]

It makes me sad that our best options sit on a transport but then I suppose we aren't the only codex (cough eldar cough) with that issue. It's bonkers that a stalker has higher toughness than a pred.

 

You are right about the venator, we should also mention the xiphon as that has the best of both worlds in attacking ground and air.

 

What about more conventional dreadnoughts (i.e. contemptor with kheres and twin last)? I do love a dreadnought...otherwise I guess I'm buying loads of Razorbacks my primaris won't fit in....

[Diagramdude]

Another plus about the Venator. We are mainly discussing these fire base ideas because we need some turn one presence on the table to kind of muck about and not die while we wait for our turn two beta strike. The Venator ignores penalties for moving and shooting, so you can safely deploy it out of LOS and roll it 14" into position before it shoots. 

I think it's worth remembering that survivability is almost as important as offensive firepower for considering what units Blood Angels should start on the table. Most of our killy stuff will arrive turn two.

[Karhedron]

I have had a lot of success (pre-FAQ) with an all infantry BA list so I have been taking Devastators lately for anti-tank. My usual squad is 3 LCs and 1 PC (to benefit from the signum) and a couple of extra bodies to act as Ablative wounds. Their job is target anything that wants to hang back. Anything that comes towards me gets the personal attention of Captain Smash, Mephiston and (if necessary) the DC (who I run with a couple of PFs to deal with tough targets).

 

For chaff clearance I have been running bolter Inceptors. I will have to experiment to see if they are still viable post-FAQ. With a 10" move and 18" range, they can still fire into the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1 and UWOF is still an option. If not running Inceptors then Assault Cannon RBs are definitely the best anti-infantry platform and can even threaten vehicles though weight of fire at a pinch. Plus they are not affected by the Rule of 3. You will need to run multiples though as they will often be priority targets.

[Shaezus]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't scout bikes the most efficient unit for anti-chaff? A 5 man unit for 1pt more than a TLAC razback with stormbolter. 30 S4 shots at 12". Considering you'll likely have to move the razback to get in range, so hitting on 4+ anyway. The scout bikes can also threaten a charge on any units deployed on the DZ edge.

[Bremon]

It’s 9 points more, and yes, they are fairly efficient as well. They add to our drops instead of reducing them, so I’ve stopped using bikes so much.

[Karhedron]

Whilst they are efficient at dealing death, Scout bikes only put out that firepower at up to 12" range whereas Assault Cannons have 24" range. They have the same number of wounds but the Bikes are T5 and 4+ whereas the RB is T7 and 3+ which is a significant jump in durability.

 

Both units are good and your choice may well depend on what else you are running in your army.

[Shaezus]

Ayes I got the cost of lasback mixed up with assback, so yes 9 points more.

 

Points acknowledged about wounds and toughness too, though as you say, Karhedronuk, it depends what you are running; that spread of wounds is better in some situations. All things are situational and everything has a nemesis but in terms of maximum damage vs chaff, the scout bikes are a great choice to bear in mind.

[dakkamasta]

Why not both? A combination of scout bikes zipping up the field supported by assault cannon Razorbacks would be brutal against infantry of all types. The cool part is that the scout bikes are quite decent in close combat for their cost and have the speed to get there so they can move up to shoot and then charge, giving your Razorbacks a bit of breathing room.

 

I have a list with two squads of 5 scout bikes that I've been planning to use but havn't had time for a game unfortunately. They look very promising though.

[Semirhagge]

I've been thinking of trying a 2 Battalion army with:

Battalion 1

 

Captain- Combi Plas, Power Sword

Lemartes

 

3 x 5man Intercessors (Aux Launcher)

 

15 man DC sqaud (3 fists, would use Forlorn Fury to either get a t1 charge and break up the chaff or use defensively if I go second). 

1 Plasma Inceptor Sqaud (177 flex point. I like this unit but i may want a t2 Melee unit)

 

Battalion 2

Captain Slamsmash dude. Typical build

Primaris Lieutenant

 

3x 5man Las Cannon Tacticals

 

2x Hellblaster Sqaud

1x Las Cannon Dev Squad

 

The hellblasters, Dev squad and Tacticals would be deployed with the non jump pack captain and Lieutenant. Their goal is to try to just blow up anything that can get in the way of the DC. The Intercessor would most likely be deployed up the board into cover and screen as best they can. The DC + Lemartes would use Forlorn Fury and UWoF to move in for the T1 Charge on something juicy, hopefully to then consolidate into and keep the back line busy. The Plasma Inceptor is the only thing i have in DS for a t2 follow up if i can clear a spot in the enemy deployment. This unit however could and probably should be replaced with a heavy hitting melee unit.

 

This is something I'm going to try out. I don't get to play much anymore so I may be missing some glaring holes against armies i could just get wrecked against.

[Panzer]

Looks good to me but you might be lacking the volume of shots to deal with real horde armies.

[Djangomatic82]

 

The system lacks granularity at this point and realistically GW needs to grow a spine and be willing to push things like a land raider to T9; you don’t see them on the table as is, some extra defense to lascannons and missile launchers would be welcome and would leave room for more nuance in other vehicles.

I was thinking the same thing. During one of their videos, laurence on tabletop tactics suggested giving terminators a roll 2 dice discard the lowest mechanic for their saves, like they had in a previouse edition (2nd??). I'd go a bit further and give that ability to anything with the terminator, predator or landraider keywords when making an armor or invulnerability save.

[Buggane]

Thats an interesting list. I always worry about the balance with the base and the aggressive units. it always seems you have to compromise, made this one up on the tube...what do people think (you could swap the SG out for DC if you were so inclined)

 

Battalion

 

Captain Smash

Sanguinor

3xIntercessor

Devestator squad, 4 las, 3 ablative wounds

Stormtalon las/AC

 

Battalion

 

Mephy

Sanguinary Priest

Scout

2xTac (HB)

Sanguinary Ancient with SoS

8x Sanguinary Guard (or 9 if i drop the HB)

2x AC RB

 

Battalion

[Panzer]

I was thinking the same thing. During one of their videos, laurence on tabletop tactics suggested giving terminators a roll 2 dice discard the lowest mechanic for their saves, like they had in a previouse edition (2nd??). I'd go a bit further and give that ability to anything with the terminator, predator or landraider keywords when making an armor or invulnerability save.

Yeah no way that is gonna happen. Nobody wants to roll 20+ double-dice one by one against mass shooting to see whether a terminator gets wounded or not lol

[robofish7591]

Maybe it will keep people from shooting at them because they don't want to wait for you to roll saves 

 

 

In all seriousness though, i would rather see rerolling saves, a bump in toughness, or a built in feel no pain before taking saves on 2 dice.  There is just too much volume of fire to make that a realistic rule.  GW already took away stacking feel no pain rolls for supposedly slowing the game down anyway....