BA Base of fire

[Djangomatic82]

True, but i can see that being a selling point for dice apps. But, something like that to beef up defences would be nice in dealing with the dominance of shooting, as well as specifically resulting in better survivability than an increase in toughness or what not.

[Arkhanist]

I agree saves on 2 dice isn't practical, but terminators need something - losing deep strike changes them from uncompetitive to just downright bad given their lack of mobility, cost, and underwhelming weapons. Backfield distraction carnifex was about their only niche, and now that's gone.

 

The simplest improvement would be a bump to T5. Gravis marines and bikes both get T5 and 2W; shouldn't treasured relics of the dark age worn by veterans of a 100 campaigns be as tough as a flipping motorbike? 

 

Land raiders need a boost too; remember the days when a land raider full of terminators was an actual threat instead of expensive target practise? Sigh.

 

Shooting in general needs a bit of a nerf. Maybe 6 months of gunlines and eldar dominating the tournaments might make GW overreact nerf turn 1 shooting, and then we can all be 'adapt, adapt, it's just a beta!'. Ok, no, we shouldn't do that.

 

 

_{but I might think it.}

[The Unseen]

T5 and 3 wounds would be enough.

They, and the game, don't need a special snowflake durability rule.

Would drastically cut down on how much damage 1D weapons would do, and cut their vulnerability to overcharged plasma down from "catastrophically".

 

Well, that and a ranged weapon worth something, and 3 attacks base.

 

I'm looking at finding allies that allow us to continue playing similarly too our pre-faq selves, with turn 1 disruption and turn 2 killing blow.

Sisters seem promising at a first glance.

[Bremon]

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. During one of their videos, laurence on tabletop tactics suggested giving terminators a roll 2 dice discard the lowest mechanic for their saves, like they had in a previouse edition (2nd??). I'd go a bit further and give that ability to anything with the terminator, predator or landraider keywords when making an armor or invulnerability save.

Yeah no way that is gonna happen. Nobody wants to roll 20+ double-dice one by one against mass shooting to see whether a terminator gets wounded or not lol

”Melta” style armour saves is a ridiculous idea, but in this glorious age of rerolls I could easily see save rerolls become a standard mechanic for things like terminators. I’m curious to see how different the game becomes with chapter approved 2018.

[Kallas]

Storm Bolters are fine on Terminators, but the requisite Power Fist really jacks up their cost. A decent points drop (say around 35pts, including gear; which makes a 5-man cost 167pts) and a reasonable resilience increase (just 2W -> 3W would be great) would do wonders for them.

 

They'd still be quite slow and still vulnerable to AP, but they'd be more cost efficient as well as actually hard to shift with weight of fire.

 

Wouldn't be against them getting an Invulnerable increase (or a further points reduction), as mass AP-4 is pretty damn rare making the, presumed, cost of the Invulnerable relatively worthless.

 

Edit:

I also strongly advocate for +1A to pretty much the entire Marine line, particularly if points weren't going to drop. 2A Tacticals aren't breaking the bank, and even Veterans aren't actually over the top with that buff. But it would definitely make them better at being combined arms.

[Diagramdude]

I doubt tacticals and tactical terminators will see a significant buff. GW clearly wants to promote the Primaris line from here on out. Taller, better looking, with 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, and the much better bolt rifle.

 

I strongly suspect that Primaris will be able to ride in Rhinos come 9th edition.

[Karhedron]

I've been thinking of trying a 2 Battalion army with:

Battalion 1

 

Captain- Combi Plas, Power Sword

Lemartes

 

3 x 5man Intercessors (Aux Launcher)

 

15 man DC sqaud (3 fists, would use Forlorn Fury to either get a t1 charge and break up the chaff or use defensively if I go second). 

1 Plasma Inceptor Sqaud (177 flex point. I like this unit but i may want a t2 Melee unit)

 

Battalion 2

Captain Slamsmash dude. Typical build

Primaris Lieutenant

 

3x 5man Las Cannon Tacticals

 

2x Hellblaster Sqaud

1x Las Cannon Dev Squad

 

The hellblasters, Dev squad and Tacticals would be deployed with the non jump pack captain and Lieutenant. Their goal is to try to just blow up anything that can get in the way of the DC. The Intercessor would most likely be deployed up the board into cover and screen as best they can. The DC + Lemartes would use Forlorn Fury and UWoF to move in for the T1 Charge on something juicy, hopefully to then consolidate into and keep the back line busy. The Plasma Inceptor is the only thing i have in DS for a t2 follow up if i can clear a spot in the enemy deployment. This unit however could and probably should be replaced with a heavy hitting melee unit.

 

This is something I'm going to try out. I don't get to play much anymore so I may be missing some glaring holes against armies i could just get wrecked against.

 

Nice looking list but I agree that horde control might be a problem. I would replace the plasma Inceptors with the bolter version as this would deal with several problems.

 

1. Better horde clearance.

2. You already have plenty of plasma and lascannons in your firebase.

3. Plasma Inceptors really need to be with a Captain to contain the risk of overheats but Captain Smash wants to run forward and hit things. If you keep the Smash with the Inceptors, you are not getting value out of him. If you send him of on his own, you are not getting value out of them.

 

This will save you 42 points. Now drop your Primaris Lt to a regular Lt. You are taking him mainly to buff your shooting so the boosted stats are less important. That will save you another 10 points. Lastly, drop one of the Lascannons on the Tactical squads down a Heavy Bolter to give you a bit more anti-infantry as well as access to the Hellfire stratagem. This will save you another 15 points.

 

Now take those points and get a Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice to support your firebase. You have 13 CPs so spending 1 on an extra relic will be a good investment as it will give the firebase a 5+++ save and also means that each time someone dies (to enemy attacks or overheating Hellblasters) they get to make a parting shot on a 4+.

[Shaezus]

On the matter of an anti - armour / MC unit for the firebase, a tip of the head here to the Deimos Vindicator. That -5 AP and straight 6 D is so powerful it skips out two whole dice roll stages. I haven't tried it but it is very tempting even in an infantry list.

[Panzer]

I still think AP-5 is ridiculous overkill even against Sv2+ units. The D6 characteristic is what's makes the huge difference here. ^^

[Shaezus]

With luck like mine, I'll gladly deny my opponent that 6+ :D

 

Still, probably hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+ in most cases, so it does feel a bit risky compared to lascannon devs with more shots, greater range, better BS and the cherub too.

[Ishagu]

Sicaran Venator, some Hellblasters and a Repulsor? :-D

[Semirhagge]

 

 

I've been thinking of trying a 2 Battalion army with:

Battalion 1

 

Captain- Combi Plas, Power Sword

Lemartes

 

3 x 5man Intercessors (Aux Launcher)

 

15 man DC sqaud (3 fists, would use Forlorn Fury to either get a t1 charge and break up the chaff or use defensively if I go second).

1 Plasma Inceptor Sqaud (177 flex point. I like this unit but i may want a t2 Melee unit)

 

Battalion 2

Captain Slamsmash dude. Typical build

Primaris Lieutenant

 

3x 5man Las Cannon Tacticals

 

2x Hellblaster Sqaud

1x Las Cannon Dev Squad

 

The hellblasters, Dev squad and Tacticals would be deployed with the non jump pack captain and Lieutenant. Their goal is to try to just blow up anything that can get in the way of the DC. The Intercessor would most likely be deployed up the board into cover and screen as best they can. The DC + Lemartes would use Forlorn Fury and UWoF to move in for the T1 Charge on something juicy, hopefully to then consolidate into and keep the back line busy. The Plasma Inceptor is the only thing i have in DS for a t2 follow up if i can clear a spot in the enemy deployment. This unit however could and probably should be replaced with a heavy hitting melee unit.

 

This is something I'm going to try out. I don't get to play much anymore so I may be missing some glaring holes against armies i could just get wrecked against.

Nice looking list but I agree that horde control might be a problem. I would replace the plasma Inceptors with the bolter version as this would deal with several problems.

 

1. Better horde clearance.

2. You already have plenty of plasma and lascannons in your firebase.

3. Plasma Inceptors really need to be with a Captain to contain the risk of overheats but Captain Smash wants to run forward and hit things. If you keep the Smash with the Inceptors, you are not getting value out of him. If you send him of on his own, you are not getting value out of them.

 

This will save you 42 points. Now drop your Primaris Lt to a regular Lt. You are taking him mainly to buff your shooting so the boosted stats are less important. That will save you another 10 points. Lastly, drop one of the Lascannons on the Tactical squads down a Heavy Bolter to give you a bit more anti-infantry as well as access to the Hellfire stratagem. This will save you another 15 points.

 

Now take those points and get a Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice to support your firebase. You have 13 CPs so spending 1 on an extra relic will be a good investment as it will give the firebase a 5+++ save and also means that each time someone dies (to enemy attacks or overheating Hellblasters) they get to make a parting shot on a 4+.

Those are some great suggestions, I honestly thought it’d get a lot more criticism but the whole wouldn’t handle hordes things is a great point. I’ll give this lost plus the changes you suggested a go in my next game.

[dakkamasta]

What about the regular Sicaran Battle Tank? Mine was an auto-include in 7th and since the price drop in Chapter Approved it pretty much is again. The main gun is rock solid and it's assault so it can utilise it's 14" move. Excellent anti-air too.

[Indefragable]

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of lascannons on Tacticals. I messed around with them a bit, and they just are not reliable enough for me.

 

For 5pts more, you can get a Dev squad with a lascannon + Signum + armorium cherub. That lascannon is now hitting on a 2+ and can fire twice (at BS2+) with the cherub.

 

I understand the urge to "hide" dakka in a Troops unit, but I've found it more frustrating and counter-productive then it seems. Especially when you primarily want Tacticals to be grabbing Obj (so Advancing around) or eating Overwatch for other units.

[Indefragable]

 

I was thinking the same thing. During one of their videos, laurence on tabletop tactics suggested giving terminators a roll 2 dice discard the lowest mechanic for their saves, like they had in a previouse edition (2nd??). I'd go a bit further and give that ability to anything with the terminator, predator or landraider keywords when making an armor or invulnerability save.

Yeah no way that is gonna happen. Nobody wants to roll 20+ double-dice one by one against mass shooting to see whether a terminator gets wounded or not lol

 

 

Tangentially about Terminators...

Hidden Content

They should be T5 3W. It's called Tactical Dreadnought Armor for crying out loud...

 

So any model that is upgraded to Terminator armor is +1T and +2W.

 

Though the disparity with bikes has gotten better, it still kills me that bikes also get +1T and +1W in addition to the massive mobility advantage.

 

Or, alternatively, Terminator armor reduces AP by 1 (so AP-1 has no effect, plasma is AP-2 instead) and it provides a 5+++ FNP built in.

 

Either way, the whole point is that Terminators are supposed to be prohibitively expensive and slow, but hot darn can they weather the fire.

[Ishagu]

What about the regular Sicaran Battle Tank? Mine was an auto-include in 7th and since the price drop in Chapter Approved it pretty much is again. The main gun is rock solid and it's assault so it can utilise it's 14" move. Excellent anti-air too.

I like it, would still run one over a predator and with 2 Las Cannons it barely even costs more. My only issue is that it fills a generalist role.

 

A Sicaran Punisher is better anti infantry.

A Sicaran Vinator is better anti tank.

[Karhedron]

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of lascannons on Tacticals. I messed around with them a bit, and they just are not reliable enough for me.

 

For 5pts more, you can get a Dev squad with a lascannon + Signum + armorium cherub. That lascannon is now hitting on a 2+ and can fire twice (at BS2+) with the cherub.

 

I understand the urge to "hide" dakka in a Troops unit, but I've found it more frustrating and counter-productive then it seems. Especially when you primarily want Tacticals to be grabbing Obj (so Advancing around) or eating Overwatch for other units.

I tend to do both. Numbers count with heavy weapons so I normally run a Dev squad and a couple of Tacs with heavy weapons. -1 to Hit when moving is a lot better than only hitting on a 6 in previous editions. I tend to use my Tactical squads to hold objectives so once they get where they are going, they often stay put for a while.

 

I tend to run 1 Tac with ML and 1 with HB to take advantage of the mortal wound stratagems. My Dev squad is normally 3 LCs and 1 PC. If I didn't run heavy weapons, the obvious replacement in the tactical squads would be plasma guns and they do synergise better with bolters in terms of range. But sometimes having a few extra heavy weapons dotted about can be handy. I don't currently have enough intercessors and Scouts to make a dual Battalion list without Tacs.

[Bremon]

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of lascannons on Tacticals. I messed around with them a bit, and they just are not reliable enough for me.

 

For 5pts more, you can get a Dev squad with a lascannon + Signum + armorium cherub. That lascannon is now hitting on a 2+ and can fire twice (at BS2+) with the cherub.

 

I understand the urge to "hide" dakka in a Troops unit, but I've found it more frustrating and counter-productive then it seems. Especially when you primarily want Tacticals to be grabbing Obj (so Advancing around) or eating Overwatch for other units.

On the other side of that coin, there’s an argument to be made that +5CP instead of +1 is a bigger force multiplier than lascannons that are +1 to hit comparatively. Those 4 CP become a scalpel allowing SG, DC, or a hammer captain to become a precision tool for threat removal and enable more noses control by extension because we can more easily redeploy anywhere on the table. I do love Devastators though. Those blue helmets look so bold against the red armour and cherubs make for a potentially crippling first volley.

[Indefragable]

 

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of lascannons on Tacticals. I messed around with them a bit, and they just are not reliable enough for me.

 

For 5pts more, you can get a Dev squad with a lascannon + Signum + armorium cherub. That lascannon is now hitting on a 2+ and can fire twice (at BS2+) with the cherub.

 

I understand the urge to "hide" dakka in a Troops unit, but I've found it more frustrating and counter-productive then it seems. Especially when you primarily want Tacticals to be grabbing Obj (so Advancing around) or eating Overwatch for other units.

On the other side of that coin, there’s an argument to be made that +5CP instead of +1 is a bigger force multiplier than lascannons that are +1 to hit comparatively. Those 4 CP become a scalpel allowing SG, DC, or a hammer captain to become a precision tool for threat removal and enable more noses control by extension because we can more easily redeploy anywhere on the table. I do love Devastators though. Those blue helmets look so bold against the red armour and cherubs make for a potentially crippling first volley.

 

 

I don't disagree...and I'm not saying to scrap Troops altogether, but rather to specialize your Troops in doing Troopsy things while your Heavy Supports do Heavy Support-y things.

[Bremon]

That’s a good point, but generally mini marines are so weak that if I end up with 2 objectives in my DZ and one close I double up on them, and don’t mind walking a heavy weapon for a turn to sit on them. My tac marines are never part of a plan to get too close to the enemy. More like “sit over here and draw fire away from good stuff, or they risk having living tac squads scoring points every turn”. If they get too close it’s too easy for dangerous things to quickly eat them in CC and then the enemy gets back to attacking the good stuff.

[Indefragable]

That’s a good point, but generally mini marines are so weak that if I end up with 2 objectives in my DZ and one close I double up on them, and don’t mind walking a heavy weapon for a turn to sit on them. My tac marines are never part of a plan to get too close to the enemy. More like “sit over here and draw fire away from good stuff, or they risk having living tac squads scoring points every turn”. If they get too close it’s too easy for dangerous things to quickly eat them in CC and then the enemy gets back to attacking the good stuff.

 

But any fire put on Tacticals/ASM when other stuff is on the board means SG/DC live 1 Turn longer. That's how I see it. When you can have the other guy use a Knight to take your Pawn so you can then take his Knight with your Rook....it's a win.

[Bremon]

What I’m saying is if your tacs are close enough to double tap plasma they’re close enough to be destroyed by stuff that might not otherwise kill much of anything. Close combat stuff. Daemons, etc. At least with tacs farther away those CC things either get put out of position or shooting is wasted. Your meta is likely different.

[Indefragable]

What I’m saying is if your tacs are close enough to double tap plasma they’re close enough to be destroyed by stuff that might not otherwise kill much of anything. Close combat stuff. Daemons, etc. At least with tacs farther away those CC things either get put out of position or shooting is wasted. Your meta is likely different.

 

Naturally. I think we're on the same page. Not to mention that every battle is different and you have to adjust to the unique circumstances of mission, board setup, and opponent army composition (among others).

 

My meta we tend to roll for mission played: roll 2 dice, 1 for Eternal War, 1 for Maelstrom. And then both players pick which one they want to play OR just do both ("just add Relic" is always interesting...) so we're constantly kept on our toes and perhaps to have a bit more Take-All-Comers mindset as a result (TAC =/= WAAC).

[Semirhagge]

The only reason I took Lasticals, is because I fill 3 troop slots for less than 100 points. If i didn't feel the need for additional Anti-Tank I would just bring more intercessors. as much as I love that scouts are 55pts They just do absolutely nothing in every game I've brought them other than be screens. So tactials can sit in the back and add to the anti tank where they are less likely to be punched and kill by anything. while the Intercessors go and be the frontline troops.

[keeblerartillery]

I cannot unsee, or unhear myself read, "Lasticals." Are they moist too? The moist lasticals, just sitting in the back are your go-to?