mc warhammer Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 AD-B had stated that the portrayal in Master of Mankind was meant to be in addition to the other portrayals of the Emperor, not override them. We've got plenty of portrayals of the Emperor in which he's more kindly, like him meeting Perturabo in the Perturabo book. For some reason, everybody just jumps over the Master of Mankind stuff as if it invalidates it, missing the point that he was trying to portray the Emperor as something beyond human comprehension, that we could only perceive through our own biases and world view. The Primarchs view(ed) him as fatherly, the Custodes view him as the eternal Regent King, the Mechanicus see a scientist unclouded by emotion, and the Silent Sisters see just a man. Which raises the interesting question. What is Horus going to see the Emperor as during the Siege? i always think back to how grammaticus sees the emperor as one of the varied viewpoints. MoM was nothing new in that regard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 But does Thorpe have Sanguinius do anything constructive while he's delegating? haven’t read much of I2 beyond UR, so i’m not sure. but purely working off that quote above, if guilliman and the lion were planning my defences, i’d happily take a power nap rather than give my two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 AD-B had stated that the portrayal in Master of Mankind was meant to be in addition to the other portrayals of the Emperor, not override them. We've got plenty of portrayals of the Emperor in which he's more kindly, like him meeting Perturabo in the Perturabo book. For some reason, everybody just jumps over the Master of Mankind stuff as if it invalidates it, missing the point that he was trying to portray the Emperor as something beyond human comprehension, that we could only perceive through our own biases and world view. The Primarchs view(ed) him as fatherly, the Custodes view him as the eternal Regent King, the Mechanicus see a scientist unclouded by emotion, and the Silent Sisters see just a man. Which raises the interesting question. What is Horus going to see the Emperor as during the Siege? Not exactly related to Sanguinius' flaws, but, how then, do you explain at the end of Dark Imperium where Guilliman reminisces about his conversation with Emperor upon his return to Terra: "The Emperor greeted Guilliman with interest, but as a creator would a long-lost tool, not as a father would with his son." "Do not take the Emperor's words at face value" says ADB. Sure, alright, the Emperor tells the Custodes and the Mechanicum guy that the Primarchs were just numbers, and that he had no love for them. He tells them that in order to make the Custodes feel special and favored, so he could fight harder; and the Mechanicum guy, so... well, so he could fool the bastard into helping him figure out how to remove Angron's butcher's nail. And, here we are from Guilliman's POV, the Emperor created the Pirmarchs as tools, weapons to conquer the galaxy in His name, only to be later discarded. If everyone sees the Emperor differently in their own good ways, why then did Guilliman see the Emperor like this? I have a bad feeling that ADB's sinister idea from MoM have become the real thing now, and the Emperor may truly be..... I'm not going to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 That’s not what it is though. The Emperor isn’t speaking differently to each person. He’s not referring to the Primarchs by numbers to make the Mechanicus happy, and calling them ‘son’ to their face. He’s not even speaking. He’s a psychic entity of godlike power taking mortal form. His ‘words’ are him telepathically impressing meaning upon his audience, that their all-too-human minds interpret as speech. Their minds interpret this differently depending on how they perceive him. So yes, Guilliman now “hears” the Emperor referring to him as a mere tool, partly because of what has happened to the Emperor over the millennia, and partly because Guilliman woke up in a theocracy that seemingly shows that Horus’ interpretation of the Crusade was correct. As such, his faith and relationship with the Emperor is understandably shaken, and he now interprets things differently. Does this mean the Emperor is indeed not what he claims to be? No. It just means that humans aren’t capable of conceiving power nearing divinity, and interpret it in ways they’re capable of, rather than a blaze of might that could incinerate them utterly without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandion40 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Maybe that’s why the Emperor keeps Sanguinius at arms length, maybe due to Sanguinius having similar qualities at lower levels he’s the only one who can see the Emperor in his entirety as what he truly is. That’s got to be disconcerting for the Emperor if true. Or possibly the Emperor keeping Sanguinius at arms length is in my head as I really can’t point to anything that gave me that idea, it just came to me gradually years ago and never left me, I’ve truly got no idea precisely why I feel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I have to agree with the Sanguinius-skeptics in here; I have not been impressed with his portrayals so far. His character's popularity rides on how popular he was before the series started, and maybe on how awesome all the other characters say he is. If he were new, I can't imagine he'd be highly regarded. There's no question he's a great fighter, which means at the very least, he's like Angron but nice. Except not too nice, with the way he was willing to kill a legionnaire when creating the Herald. He uses his guilt like a crutch - he may feel terrible about killing his sons, deploying Destroyers, and exterminating worlds, but he'll keep doing it so long as he thinks he doesn't enjoy it. I don't see any indication that he could ever be a candidate for Warmaster. He seems passive and reactive (though also cooperative) when it comes to working with other legions, and his psychically-soothing presence isn't a sufficient substitute for diplomacy. In Imperium Secundus he doesn't lead. In Scars he's practically provoking fights. His prescience is as much of a curse as Curze's; it keeps him from concentrating on other things when should be doing so, and it locks him into a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess that's actually a nice touch, showing how similar mentalities take the two characters to the same place but with contrasting results for their legions. Speaking of contrast, compare them to Sigismund, who does quite well in trying to avoid prophecy. Maybe that's representative of the handing-off of humanity from the Emperor and the primarchs (beings birthed from the warp, in a way) to regular, materium-based people. He'll have another chance soon, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 30, 2018 Author Share Posted April 30, 2018 You're overly harsh about him in Scars, I think. Sanguinius starts out pretty much making a jest of the whole rankings thing (hello fourth wall), tries to split a compliment between two brothers and then they both arguably take it a bit far. Then Sanguinius smooths that over, and after the subsequent stuff with Mortarion has largely subsided, he comes back with a point about a quite serious disagreement he has with Mortarion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I thought Sanguinius was the bomb in the novel where they assaulted the daemon world. James Swallow is not much appreciated for his BA novels but I really thought he did Sanguinius justice in that one. Landing their battlebarge on the planet blew my mind. Anyways what I am taking away from this thread is that newbs don't appreciate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Because Sanguinius' books were not written by ADB, French or Wraight, they are automatically less than excellent. I though "Ruinstorm" was an excellent read btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I thought Sanguinius was the bomb in the novel where they assaulted the daemon world. James Swallow is not much appreciated for his BA novels but I really thought he did Sanguinius justice in that one. Landing their battlebarge on the planet blew my mind. Anyways what I am taking away from this thread is that newbs don't appreciate him. The Red Tear crashed on Signus, didnt land. With the exception of Buzz Lightyear, there is a big difference between crashing and landing. Guess your reddit summary didnt help there. And again with declaring people newbs for having different opinions. Beginning to notice a trend here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Well, not defending Black Orange, but there have been a decent number of posts of people saying that for all the Heresy series has shown of him, he hasn't exactly lived up to the hype. He's been shown as not a particularly involved leader in the Imperium Secundus (although I have my own interpretation of this). He's shown as a fey and aloof Primarch that's fairly capable in a fight. We're continually told that multiple Primarchs, Horus included, believed that he was at least in the running for Warmaster, if not that he should have been granted the position instead of Horus. What we need is the Sanguinius book in the Primarchs series, and to have it be about Sanguinius during the time when he was fighting by the Emperors side. Show us the Angel leading the hosts of the Emperor. We've had enough of emo Sanguinius lamenting the Flaw of his Legion, or sitting around drinking wine with his brothers. Show us why he is the one Primarch that Horus himself truly feared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Well, not defending Black Orange, but there have been a decent number of posts of people saying that for all the Heresy series has shown of him, he hasn't exactly lived up to the hype. He's been shown as not a particularly involved leader in the Imperium Secundus (although I have my own interpretation of this). He's shown as a fey and aloof Primarch that's fairly capable in a fight. We're continually told that multiple Primarchs, Horus included, believed that he was at least in the running for Warmaster, if not that he should have been granted the position instead of Horus. What we need is the Sanguinius book in the Primarchs series, and to have it be about Sanguinius during the time when he was fighting by the Emperors side. Show us the Angel leading the hosts of the Emperor. We've had enough of emo Sanguinius lamenting the Flaw of his Legion, or sitting around drinking wine with his brothers. Show us why he is the one Primarch that Horus himself truly feared. I'd agree with most of that. One particular fight sequence aside, the Angel hasnt received the best love from the BL so far. but I dont blame readers for that, but the BL. We are continually told how awesome the unleashed Angel is. I dont think we've seen alot of evidence supporting that. Atleast he hasnt been Worf'ed as the Wolves had. JKC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I didn't take Black Orange as blaming the new people, but rather that due to Black Libraries treatment of him, people whose only experience is the HH series have no real knowledge of what Sanguinius is meant to be. Hell, even the long-term fans don't exactly have anything to base it on, we've just had more time to absorb the generic refrains of "Sanguinius was the awesomest!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I read the novel. The ship landed and later took off again. Brilliant move by Sanguinius which caught the denizens of the warp completely off guard. Blood Angels crushed hard and won that encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 How many Primarchs crush two bloodthirsters in one day ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaanofWar Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 When did Corax/Raven Guard talk about not liking fighting with the BA's? Corax mentions only Horus and Sanguinius could stand against Angron (not that that contradicts what you're saying about fighting side by side with them). There is a tiny blurb in Wolfsbane where Russ says he doesn't think he could beat Sanguinius in a fight (or at least he is t sure). He says he has a buried ferocity and a 'baresark in angel's garb.' My computer died Thursday so I cannot give an immediate quote, but when I’m up and running again I’ll find where I read that. Let’s not forget Brann of the Raven Guard and an Imperial Fist wagering if it’ll be Russ or Sanguinius bringing Horus to heel. That was pretty cool That's what I'm wanting to know as well. I can imagine the BA way of war being a little too flashy for Corax, but the way you said it it suggests that the Raven Guard noticed some early signs of the Red Thirst/Black Rage within the Blood Angels. If so, that's cool and I really wanna know which book I need to read. I agree though with most people in the thread that we need to see more of Sanguinius taking charge of things in his life. Haven't read Fear to Tread, but Signus has always been a bit of a loss for the BA, not exactly their finest moment. Imperium Secundus was a bad time for everyone involved and no primarch got out of that mess with their character unscathed. The fact that every other character in the Heresy is singing his praises in spite of this has caused this wierd situation where everyone knows Sanguinius is supposed to be extremely cool and badass, but noone really knows why yet. My hope is that this all changes during the siege. The siege has always been Sanguinius's defining moment in the existing lore. His actions during the siege and his sacrifice on the Vengeful Spirit should finally show us why Sanguinius is seen as Space Jesus by almost everyone in the 30k/40k universe. If they do it right it could potentially be the most satisfying thing to read in the entire Heresy series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 If you call crashing landing, then sure. Sanguinius defeating 2 greater daemons in one day is the awesome moment I mentioned above. Sadly it’s a Island of skull crushing awesome on a ocean of meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 How many Primarchs crush two bloodthirsters in one day ? How many Primarchs crush two Primarchs in one day? ...... Konrad Curze...... But let's not get into the Unremembered book, the events that took place there were, well, unremembered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Wait, didn’t Lorgar defeat 4 avatars in a single go, including Anngrath?? Edit: I don’t think he fought all 4, but I can review the book after work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Wait, didn’t Lorgar defeat 4 avatars in a single go, including Anngrath?? Edit: I don’t think he fought all 4, but I can review the book after work Now now jarl, beware, you are leading us astray of the topic ;) If I remember correctly, it was one (1) avatar of Khaine, and it was slowly dying. And of course, there's Anngrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Yea, I can be as guilty of it as anybody. Lorgar was tested by all 4 powers and I thought some of them included combat. Oh well. i recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it. Back to Sanguinius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 This is a peeing contest - I am out. Shame on the mod for instigating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 But even in besting two greater deamons BL did more harm then good to the Primarch, by having him defeat his tormentor on Signus, rather then letting it fester under the skin ( like it was suppose to) it takes all the drama and true awesomeness of their final showdown before the gate. Rather then the culmination of a story arc they have made it be a 'oh you again' moment. Catharsis for his failure at signus was always one of the high points of the Angels story line, in a truly awesome way. By having him best a creature that has proven it can lay him low, even wounded and weary, by having it all lead up to a moment where Sangiunius has to lay it all on the line and truly become the Angel unleashed turn into a round 3 of a fight he has already won. They rob the moment of part of its mythos, not to mention utterly reduce it in the eyes of people who may not know the lore. Fear to tread should have been the beginning of the Angel vs deamon title fight, instead it was made a one punch show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 nagashnee: You may be right about the missed opportunity. But the nature of daemons being what it is I think it's too early to tell. We may yet see more action between Sanguinius and his daemon nemesis before the siege of Terra..... that is, if the HH Cabal is worth it's salt. If not, then it truly IS a missed opportunity. Imho, Fear to Tread was one of the best of the HH series and a long overdue starring role for Sang. But he needs another one before we get to the siege of Terra and we are running out of time. Sanguinius is supposed to be a major player in this epic drama and if we don't get something to cement that view then he is little more than a footnote and just another casualty among billions in this civil war. No less, but no more tragic than anyone else's death. Before Sanguinius sings his last song I HOPE we get to see him as the mighty primarch and terrible angel of death he is supposed to be. Black Orange: you're right... it was a peeing contest, but I think it's over. Please come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 nagashnee: You may be right about the missed opportunity. But the nature of daemons being what it is I think it's too early to tell. We may yet see more action between Sanguinius and his daemon nemesis before the siege of Terra..... that is, if the HH Cabal is worth it's salt. If not, then it truly IS a missed opportunity. Imho, Fear to Tread was one of the best of the HH series and a long overdue starring role for Sang. But he needs another one before we get to the siege of Terra and we are running out of time. Black Orange: you're right... it was a peeing contest, but I think it's over. Please come back That "other one" is called Ruinstorm, brother. And yes, Mr. Orange, please come back . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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