Sanguinius and his flaws or otherwise

[carlisimo]

Angron also calls Sanguinius a 'fey creature' or something like that. But then he is actually at peace while looking at a hologram of Sanguinius. Even his nails stop biting.

I must’ve missed that, but it could be an alternative explanation for why the Black Rage becomes a problem after Sanguinius’s death; it was always in the Blood Angels but his presence has a psychic soothing effect.

[DogWelder]

To me the biggest problem with Sanguinius is that he's always been focused on mystical visions and ephemeral concepts rather than the reality in front of him. For example here's him in Angels of Caliban basically leaving the defense and building of Imperium Secundus to the Lion and Guilliman while he does nothing but pontificate on his visions.

 

 

 

‘That is a more succinct way of saying it, yes,’ Guilliman admitted. ‘I suppose Aldurukh is not so different? It follows the established Imperial delineations and zonal layouts?’

 

‘Beyond the walls, we endeavoured to match the Imperium’s standards. The city proper is more like the castrum, defined by defensive needs and geology more than grand design.’ He looked at the inner fortification of the civitas and shook his head. ‘Although Aldurukh has a great deal more… verticality.’

 

Guilliman questioned the use of this word with a look.

 

‘It’s mostly dug out of a mountain,’ explained the Lion. ‘Not many flat spaces around the tower of the Angelicasta until you reach the plain. It is generally based on a spiral layout, moving in towards the central keep from the outer gates.’

 

He glanced at Sanguinius but the angel was staring through the modelled city, his thoughts far away.

 

‘Brother, I do not think you are fully engaged in our endeavour,’ said the Lion, straightening. ‘You have barely spoken your approval of my plan.’

 

‘Whatever you and Roboute decide will be exceptional,’ said the Blood Angel, a semblance of life returning to his features like a beautiful statue animating. He smiled, but it did not reach his eyes. ‘It would be a grand vanity to think I can improve on a design described by two such towering intellects.’

[bluntblade]

I liked the glimpse we got in Scars, with Sanguinius being a little more active in a social setting.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm not sure that I'm sanguine ( no pun intended..... well, maybe a little) with this emo Sanguinius that people are focusing on. It seems to me a lot of this is in direct relation to Imperium Secundus itself. I think he sees this as at best a necessary evil and at worst a dubious idea. He can't muster much enthusiasm in this pseudo- imperium where he is little more than a figurehead and everybody has their own agenda.

 

To me, Fear to Tread shows his weaknesses quite clearly. Clearly, if knowledge of the red thirst and the black rage gets out he and his legion will go the way of the II and XI legion lickety-split. This is a real concern and a weakness if found out. Second, his love for his legion and compassion for his sons sometimes clouds his vision of the bigger picture. He almost recklessly sacrifices his life and soul to forces that he should have seen mean to turn him (or kill him) and the Blood Angels to chaos. Only the direct intervention by one of his sons prevents him from taking this clearly short sighted action.

 

When it comes to his ability as a military leader, I think we get a good glimpse of that at the beginning of Fear to Tread from the battle against the nephilim as well as Horus' comment to him afterwards.

 

Sanguinius knows who and what the Emperor is. He knows when he is going to die. He knows his place in the scheme of things. I see no evidence that he is preoccupied with any of this. As far as his military prowess goes, I think we've seen that too. His major weaknesses are knowledge of the flaw and his compassion.

[bluntblade]

It's not a matter of emo Sanguinius to me, so long as it's handled well. It certainly could be played in a way that's very shallow indeed, but in the hands of AD-B, Wraight or French it could be really quite powerful.

[Brother Lunkhead]

It's not that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of emo Sanguinius. I just don't buy it.

[bluntblade]

I should ask, do you mean the side of him that Larger refers to, or the "I have foreseen my own doom" side?

[Manchu warlord]

I'm not sure that this is exactly a flaw...eh... agh... actually, it probably is. 

Okay, so, when Sanguinius was declared as the Emperor of Imperium Secundus, he accepted the mantle reluctantly.  Now, that's okay, it shows his humbleness and his lack of desire to rule.  However, desperate times call for desperate need, and in a time of paramount such as what is going on in the galaxy, a strong figurehead is needed to keep the people of Ultramar (which is a lot a people and a large percent of the human population of the Imperium) together.  He feels like he is being forced into being this figurehead, and acts like a child doing something he doesn't want to do.  He doesn't want to do this, but he has to, because many people depend on him and look at him as if he was the Emperor himself.  It's just childish of how he constantly tells Guilliman that he doesn't want to do this.  It almost feels as if Guilliman is making a puppet out of him, and there was a unintentional jest about this in Pharos.  Also, back then, everyone was convinced that Terra had fallen and the wider Imperium is no more, and is Sanguinius really going to forsake his duty that everyone voted on him being their ruler?  He doesn't want to rule, but he has to, because Guilliman, through hours of his theoreticism, and being backed up by the Lion, gauged that humanity's (once again, they were ignorant of the wider galaxy) best chance of success is that Sanguinius be the Nova Emperor.  It just looked like he was willy to let Imperium Secundus fall into Chaos, just because he did not want to take the responsibility of being the new monarch.   

 

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that Sanguinius is reluctant to do what was required of him, which was to be the regent of the Imperium.  And that his reluctance appears as if he is not taking his duty responsibly.     

 

I guess it might fall under the "self doubt" category that Sanguinius is famous for.

[Sulemain]

 

As other have said, the BA so far in 30k have been all tell and no show. We need to SEE why the Primarch is talked about the way he is. We need to see HOW the BA were before the rage and the thirst ran rampant.  See how the Angel treated and lead his sons. 

 

The legion needs its own First Heretic, or Scars.  Failing that a Perturabo style backround book where the curtain is pulled and we get to see the man behind the myth.

Totally agreed. Weird that the first look we'll get at BA fighting in the Crusade will be the Destroyer Host. I should stress that Abnett's skimming of their role in Murder makes sense to me for economy and drama. All the same, would be nice to see a little more of it. I'd love to see MoM's presentation of the Angels on a grand scale.

 

Coming back to flaws, I'd be interested to see if Sanguinius' relations with some other Primarchs suffer because of his secrecy. Could feature prominently with the Thousand Sons and hamper cooperation to protect the Librarius.

 

 

I think it makes sense though, considering the state of Baal. It was Destroyer-esque weapons that undid the System. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

I should ask, do you mean the side of him that Larger refers to, or the "I have foreseen my own doom" side?

 

Yes and yes. I also see Sanguinius as pacing his cage (Imperium Secundus) like a wild beast. Remember, he is a warrior lord, bred and trained for war. I think he is frustrated at not being able to get out and get to Terra and I think he sees Imperium Secundus as ten percent necessary and ninety percent farce. He knows that this is really Guilliman's realm and his position is just political. On more than one occasion he has challenged Guilliman on this point. Most of his doubt and trepidation takes place within the playscape of Imperium Secundus.

 

Now, I'm sure he has real concern over "the flaw" and the possibility of it's discovery, but it doesn't seem to manifest as caution, or doubt, or depression, or whatever. The one chance for Chaos to really take advantage of the flaw was at Signus Prime and that failed. Ten thousand years later, very few are still aware of the Black Rage or the Red Thirst (although some suspect.... something).

 

For those who would like to see more action and less talk about how great Sanguinius is, I'm in full agreement with you there.

[DogWelder]

Eh well I guess Sanguinius did also serve the purpose of preventing the Lion and Guilliman from murdering each other:

 

‘This is too much,’ the Lion said, grasping Guilliman’s arm. His anger was at Sanguinius but he could not vent his frustration at the Imperator. ‘You let Curze get this close?’

 

‘Let?’ Guilliman looked down at the Lion’s grip on his wrist and back up to the primarch, an eyebrow raised. The Lion did not release his arm.

 

‘Do not quibble over words. We were all agreed, each to our role. Neither you nor I can lead the new Imperium. Our brother is the Imperator Regis, the new leader of mankind, the seed of the future.’ The Lion’s voice rose to a snarl. ‘And you allowed Curze to lay hands on him!’

 

Guilliman wrenched away.

 

‘I allowed nothing! I was protecting the beacon at Sotha. What Imperium would we have if we allow the ruinstorm to bring back the division of the Old Night? Where was the Lord Protector? In theory you are the guardian, but in practical terms you were of no use.’

 

‘Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face,’ snapped the Lion, raising a fist.

 

‘I am here, brothers.’ Sanguinius rose from his chair, his face a whiteness in the dark, moving silently and swiftly to stand beside them. He looked at each in turn. ‘Do not treat me as a precious ornament.’

 

From: Angels of Caliban

 

Though its kinda funny he's protesting being treated as a precious ornament when he's literally done nothing but make ceremonial appearances for two entire books at this point (which is about 4 years in universe iirc). 

[Manchu warlord]

 

‘Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face,’ snapped the Lion, raising a fist.

 

 

Mr. DogWelder... That is my signature.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Actually, there is something in the relation between the Emperor and Sanguinius that have been hinted, that i believe is worth the development, and it is the Creator - Creature aspect.

 

As far as i remember, in the lore, the Emperor created the Primarchs and make them nearly as powerfull as himself. In this regard, Sanguinius is depicted pretty much as a being that could be as powerfull as the Emperor should he willingly give in into the idea. Plus, as mentioned earlier in this topic, one recurrent things about their relation is that Sanguinius clearly fear the Emperor. Either about the flaws or the visions that plague him, he go to great lenght to hide them from the Emperor and his brothers.

 

It should also be interresting to explore the fact that while the Emperor desire an Atheistic imperium, Sanguinius, by his unique mutation (the wings) and his personality, is the very embodiment of the Sacred, a living Angels as depicted by all the humans religious beliefs for more than 30K millenia. Sanguinius very existence inspire faith in things that the Emperor wish to obliterate forever from Humanity beliefs.

 

Finally, recent development in the lore, can lead to others interpretations of the Emperor divinity, quoting the fact, from the Adeptus Custodes codex, that the Emperor may be either a living being given flesh (official imperial interpretation), OR, an Apex Bio-enginered being....(Making the Emperor just a little step over the Primarch, in the same way the Custodes are from the Astartes.). Following the Apex interpretation, the Emperor would be more human than what we could imagine, and that, like jealous gods of ancient ages, he would have feared Sanguinius, because in Sanguinius he may be afraid that he created a being more perfect than himself, and that in the end would overthrown him.

 

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On Sanguinius side of the coin, he would be like a child who is afraid of his father anger, trying to proove himself whenever he can, but who would never acknowledge the fact that, in the end, he is far better than is creator. Sanguinius may, in the end, proove to be more powerful than his creator.

 

Also, due to his visions, and his belief that those visions are certain, he may end up depressed and "emo"....because when you already know the future, you do not fight at full strenght, because you know how it will end.

 

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Regarding the Battle for Terra scenario, it would be awesome that the authors would come with something that would change forever the vision of the final battle...like (Attention, it is a personal scenario on the Events of the Battle for Terra)....what if instead of Sanguinius, it was the Emperor who ended beaten by Horus, and that it was Sanguinius who, revealing the full extend of his power, destroyed Horus soul....in the aftermath Rogal Dorn would find the Emperor barely alive, Sanguinius Dead, and would presume that it was the Emperor who killed Horus.

[TheRealMcCagh]

That ending might be a little too much for my taste. But I could see Sanguinius taking on Pius' old role. A beat to hell Sanguinius finally gets the curb stomp protecting the Emperor, giving the Emperor the opening to obliterate Horus. I'm not sure how the fight would need to be choreographed to have Horus beat up Sanguinius, have the Emperor intervene, and then Sanguinius rallies for the final clash. Or maybe a dying Sanguinius sacrifices himself through some warp hand waving and gives Horus a good smack from across the room.

 

I said it before, but I really just want to care about Sanguinius when he finally goes down. I don't necessarily need to him to be the best and brightest and ultimate warrior angel. I just want his death to mean something other than 'that death we've been talking about for ten books has finally happened. And it was sad.'

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is Mystic ViSions gonna be a new book ?

[mc warhammer]

 

To me the biggest problem with Sanguinius is that he's always been focused on mystical visions and ephemeral concepts rather than the reality in front of him. For example here's him in Angels of Caliban basically leaving the defense and building of Imperium Secundus to the Lion and Guilliman while he does nothing but pontificate on his visions.

 

 

 

‘That is a more succinct way of saying it, yes,’ Guilliman admitted. ‘I suppose Aldurukh is not so different? It follows the established Imperial delineations and zonal layouts?’

 

‘Beyond the walls, we endeavoured to match the Imperium’s standards. The city proper is more like the castrum, defined by defensive needs and geology more than grand design.’ He looked at the inner fortification of the civitas and shook his head. ‘Although Aldurukh has a great deal more… verticality.’

 

Guilliman questioned the use of this word with a look.

 

‘It’s mostly dug out of a mountain,’ explained the Lion. ‘Not many flat spaces around the tower of the Angelicasta until you reach the plain. It is generally based on a spiral layout, moving in towards the central keep from the outer gates.’

 

He glanced at Sanguinius but the angel was staring through the modelled city, his thoughts far away.

 

‘Brother, I do not think you are fully engaged in our endeavour,’ said the Lion, straightening. ‘You have barely spoken your approval of my plan.’

 

‘Whatever you and Roboute decide will be exceptional,’ said the Blood Angel, a semblance of life returning to his features like a beautiful statue animating. He smiled, but it did not reach his eyes. ‘It would be a grand vanity to think I can improve on a design described by two such towering intellects.’

excellent leaders do that everyday: assemble a team of specialists and stay out of their way while they do their thing

[bluntblade]

But does Thorpe have Sanguinius do anything constructive while he's delegating?

[DogWelder]

Yeah the thing is he doesn't seem to be doing anything useful in the whole Imperium Secundus Arc but have cryptic visions and fly around Macragge.

 

The Lion cleanses a number of the remnants of the Shadow Crusade while also dealing with a refugee crisis on each one, constantly looking for Curze at the same time. Guilliman is handling the politics/logistics of getting what is left of the 500 Worlds back together while also destroying a major Night Lords invasion of Sotha.

 

Sanguinius shows up for the ceremony at the end of Unremembered Empire but then that's it.

[Brother Lunkhead]

DogWelder: So far you are definitely right about Sanguinius. We haven't seen him do a whole heck of a lot in Imperium Secundus. I'm hoping the HH Cabal of Authors will remedy this situation by writing something more substantial about him before we get to the siege of Terra.... I am somewhat pessimistic on this though.

 

At this point I'm not sure what to expect from Sanguinius, or anyone else. My whole view of who many of the primary characters really are (mostly the Emperor) and their relationship to the Emperor have been altered over time by this series. A D-B's Emperor of Mankind especially has diminished the Emperor's humanity and relationship to his "sons" in my eyes. Whether this is a good or bad thing and how it will all play in the final confrontation with Horus and Sanguinius' role in this remains to be seen. I used to think I had some idea as to how this would play out, but not any more. 

 

I still think that in spite of his "flaws" Sanguinius is a lot stronger than most seem to think he is, and so far have not seen any evidence to alter my opinion.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think the other thing to remember is that Sanguinius can see the future. He knows that he dies on Terra, against Horus. He knows this future is unchangeable. Therefore, the Imperium Secundus is a lie, because Terra has not fallen, and the Emperor still lives. Guilliman is only worried that he's potentially committing heresy and making a secessionist empire. Sanguinius knows he is, and that he won't be able to convince his brothers otherwise.

 

And remember, in regards to Master of Mankind, the Emperor is seen differently depending on the character who views Him. I have no doubt that if the book had featured a Primarch interacting with Him, He'd be more fatherly, along the lines of a stern patriarch. He just appears detached because we only really see Him speaking about a Primarch to Arkhan Land, who sees the Emperor as the Machine God, a perfect scientist and font of all knowledge. Of course the Emperor is going to appear dispassionate to such an observer.

[Roomsky]

I'll admit to not following people's issue with Sangy. As far as I know we've seen him perform plenty of impressive feats (kill two greater daemons consecutively, match one of his brothers without power armour, everything he does in Ruinstorm). He's demonstrated the angel's mercy as well as divine wrath, which to me, was always codified by a cold, righteous fury rather than passionate fervor (that's a mortal's anger, to my mind). 

 

Sang is as I'd imagined him in my few readings when I was getting into the universe, and I haven't seen anything to contradict his appearance in the artbook series or in William King's Siege of Terra shorts. I'd appreciate if someone were to illuminate me on what the problem is.

[Manchu warlord]

Does Sanguinius kill any traitor Astartes at all? I don't recall in "Fear to Tread" or "Ruinstorm" of him having traitor Space Marines blood on his hands.

 

This doesn't include his son that he killed in the aftermath of Melchior.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Lord_Caerolian: Excellent points and I hope you are right about the points of view on the Emperor.

 

Manchu warlord: Come to think of it, I don't think he has. I haven't read Ruinstorm yet, but in Fear to Tread it's all daemon killing. However, Erebus does get some marvelous comeuppance at the hands of Horus. It was worth the read for that scene alone

 

Roomsky: Thanks Brother Roomsky. I was beginning to think it was just me 

[Manchu warlord]

Well then, that's another flaw of him that I see.  He has not killed any of his treacherous nephews, dogs, bastards, heretics.  He is "too" angelic.

 

Mr. Brother Lunkhead:  Ruinstorm is a good read, a lot of people might not like it, but I sure did.  And yes, getting to see the architect of mankind's downfall bleed is gold. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

AD-B had stated that the portrayal in Master of Mankind was meant to be in addition to the other portrayals of the Emperor, not override them. We've got plenty of portrayals of the Emperor in which he's more kindly, like him meeting Perturabo in the Perturabo book. For some reason, everybody just jumps over the Master of Mankind stuff as if it invalidates it, missing the point that he was trying to portray the Emperor as something beyond human comprehension, that we could only perceive through our own biases and world view. The Primarchs view(ed) him as fatherly, the Custodes view him as the eternal Regent King, the Mechanicus see a scientist unclouded by emotion, and the Silent Sisters see just a man.

 

Which raises the interesting question. What is Horus going to see the Emperor as during the Siege?