Sanguinius and his flaws or otherwise

[bluntblade]

What does Sanguinius do of note in Ruinstorm, battle wise?

[Manchu warlord]

Oooh, ummmm... What he excels at.  Just killing a bunch of daemons, as usual.  Also, he gets tested like a dozen times by daemons that constantly try to make him join Chaos.  Anything memorable?  No... not really.  ... Does putting Curze in stasis and shoving him into space count?   

[DogWelder]

Character wise, I wish Sanguinius would be a bit more forceful personality wise. He's mostly kind of a wallflower during the scenes where he's talking with Guilliman and the Lion. 

 

However he does kind of stand up for himself during Pharos when Guilliman's Lion-related anger issues come to the fore: 

 

 

‘Where is he? Where has our brother gone?’ Guilliman roared.

 

‘My lord–’ began Azkaellon.

 

Guilliman rounded on Sanguinius’ sons, seeing them for the first time. ‘You two, leave us!’

 

Azkaellon and Raldoron looked to each other.

 

‘Now! Out!’

 

Sanguinius nodded his head a fraction.

 

‘My lord primarchs,’ said Azkaellon and bowed.

 

Raldoron opened his mouth to speak, but the look Sanguinius fixed him with froze the words in his mouth. ‘My lords,’ he managed. They took their leave in silence. Azkaellon shut the gilded doors to Sanguinius’ audience chamber behind him.

 

Sanguinius’ wings shivered, his ire kindled at his brother’s behaviour. He stood tall, radiant beyond compare. His god-like form was clad in simple robes, but his wings and shoulders were draped in golden chains dripping with ruby blood-drops.

Sanguinius drew himself up and looked down upon his brother.

 

‘Do not speak to my sons so, Roboute. They are loyal beyond words, and should not suffer your wrath. Especially when that anger is born from your own failings.’

 

[...]

 

‘Forever are others seeking to force me to their own end. Father, Horus, now you. I will not allow it, Guilliman. I agreed to this extremity, but do not push me hard. I am in a mind to begin pushing back.’

[MarineRaider]

 

AD-B had stated that the portrayal in Master of Mankind was meant to be in addition to the other portrayals of the Emperor, not override them. We've got plenty of portrayals of the Emperor in which he's more kindly, like him meeting Perturabo in the Perturabo book. For some reason, everybody just jumps over the Master of Mankind stuff as if it invalidates it, missing the point that he was trying to portray the Emperor as something beyond human comprehension, that we could only perceive through our own biases and world view. The Primarchs view(ed) him as fatherly, the Custodes view him as the eternal Regent King, the Mechanicus see a scientist unclouded by emotion, and the Silent Sisters see just a man.

 

Which raises the interesting question. What is Horus going to see the Emperor as during the Siege?

Not exactly related to Sanguinius' flaws, but, how then, do you explain at the end of Dark Imperium where Guilliman reminisces about his conversation with Emperor upon his return to Terra:  "The Emperor greeted Guilliman with interest, but as a creator would a long-lost tool, not as a father would with his son."  

 

"Do not take the Emperor's words at face value" says ADB.  Sure, alright, the Emperor tells the Custodes and the Mechanicum guy that the Primarchs were just numbers, and that he had no love for them.  He tells them that in order to make the Custodes feel special and favored, so he could fight harder; and the Mechanicum guy, so... well, so he could fool the bastard into helping him figure out how to remove Angron's butcher's nail. 

And, here we are from Guilliman's POV, the Emperor created the Pirmarchs as tools, weapons to conquer the galaxy in His name, only to be later discarded.  If everyone sees the Emperor differently in their own good ways, why then did Guilliman see the Emperor like this?  

 

I have a bad feeling that ADB's sinister idea from MoM have become the real thing now, and the Emperor may truly be.....  I'm not going to say it.  

 

When RG is brought before his father and his mind is overwhelmed as the E "speaks" to him. Later he is arguing with himself that E is now possibly more powerful than when he walked the universe and most likely a God. So 10k years later the son realizes what his father is? I think the Angel knew and understood his place in the scheme of things. Like Curze his waking nightmares were so powerful it took the luster off of what he truly could have been. 

 

You made great points about Master of Mankind. I have read it 4-5 times and at first I hated it but have grown to like it. I understand what ADB was trying to do but unfortunately, it has really hampered what could have been in the Siege stories. The E is the most interesting character in the entire setting.  I hope he gets more screen time.

[Roomsky]

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is less that Sanguinius hasn't been a whirlwind of death and more that he has no apparent rules, and as a consequence isn;t very interesting. Sanguinius` victories, impressive though they are from a distance, are mostly meaningless because A) It wasn't very hard (He kicks the everliving piss out of Ka-Bhanda) or B ) he knew he was fated to face Horus later and thus nothing could seriously threaten him (Ruinstorm). I think this comes back to the, in my opinion, poor choice of giving him those future visions. Sanguinius is understandably apathetic and depressed due to them, and it takes much of the valor away from him, including valor he might have had otherwise.

 

There's nothing wrong, to my mind, with Sanguinius being the "nice" primarch. Heck, even now he wears it better than Vulkan, but there's no pretense of heroism, no opportunities to show his daring side when he already knows what's going to happen. Sanguinius doesn't need greater achievements, he needs to be convincingly threatened.

 

TL:DR - premonitions were a mistake.

[Manchu warlord]

 

 The E is the most interesting character in the entire setting.  I hope he gets more screen time.

 

 

 

 

 

As long as ADB doesn't touch him again, its all cool.

 

 

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is less that Sanguinius hasn't been a whirlwind of death and more that he has no apparent rules, and as a consequence isn;t very interesting. Sanguinius` victories, impressive though they are from a distance, are mostly meaningless because A) It wasn't very hard (He kicks the everliving piss out of Ka-Bhanda) or B ) he knew he was fated to face Horus later and thus nothing could seriously threaten him (Ruinstorm). I think this comes back to the, in my opinion, poor choice of giving him those future visions. Sanguinius is understandably apathetic and depressed due to them, and it takes much of the valor away from him, including valor he might have had otherwise.

 

There's nothing wrong, to my mind, with Sanguinius being the "nice" primarch. Heck, even now he wears it better than Vulkan, but there's no pretense of heroism, no opportunities to show his daring side when he already knows what's going to happen. Sanguinius doesn't need greater achievements, he needs to be convincingly threatened.

 

TL:DR - premonitions were a mistake.

 

Maybe the authors are deliberately trying to making Sanguinius partially obscured, or not reveal him in his true benevolent glory because - like many things in WH40k - they want us fans to think for themselves and formulate our own thoughts and ideals of what we wish Sanguinius to truly be like.

[Roomsky]

 

Maybe the authors are deliberately trying to making Sanguinius partially obscured, or not reveal him in his true benevolent glory because - like many things in WH40k - they want us fans to think for themselves and formulate our own thoughts and ideals of what we wish Sanguinius to truly be like.

 

 

He doesn't really strike me as mysterious, though, just melancholic, and we get pretty deep into his head in Ruinstorm. And how much more glory could he possibly be hiding? It was no close battle with a blood thirster in Fear to Tread, he had time to beat it to a pulp, rip its wings off then hoist it over his head, and dropping sick burns all the while. He's carved through all the resistance an entire world of daemons could throw at him. It's hard to find anything he does impressive when he seems to have little effort in doing so.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 The E is the most interesting character in the entire setting.  I hope he gets more screen time.

 

 

 

 

 

As long as ADB doesn't touch him again, its all cool.

 

 

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is less that Sanguinius hasn't been a whirlwind of death and more that he has no apparent rules, and as a consequence isn;t very interesting. Sanguinius` victories, impressive though they are from a distance, are mostly meaningless because A) It wasn't very hard (He kicks the everliving piss out of Ka-Bhanda) or B ) he knew he was fated to face Horus later and thus nothing could seriously threaten him (Ruinstorm). I think this comes back to the, in my opinion, poor choice of giving him those future visions. Sanguinius is understandably apathetic and depressed due to them, and it takes much of the valor away from him, including valor he might have had otherwise.

 

There's nothing wrong, to my mind, with Sanguinius being the "nice" primarch. Heck, even now he wears it better than Vulkan, but there's no pretense of heroism, no opportunities to show his daring side when he already knows what's going to happen. Sanguinius doesn't need greater achievements, he needs to be convincingly threatened.

 

TL:DR - premonitions were a mistake.

 

Maybe the authors are deliberately trying to making Sanguinius partially obscured, or not reveal him in his true benevolent glory because - like many things in WH40k - they want us fans to think for themselves and formulate our own thoughts and ideals of what we wish Sanguinius to truly be like.

 

 

That's not exactly a good defense for ignoring "show, don't tell". If you want a character to be mysterious, you do what they've done with Alpharius/Omegon, and hidden his motivations, etc, or keep the character on the sidelines and don't really mention them. We're repeatedly told about how awesome Sanguinius is, by numerous characters. That's not keeping him obscured, it's just not giving us anything to actually demonstrate it.

 

In regards to how ADB has shown the Emperor, well, I've already shown my thoughts on the matter. He showed the different aspects of the Emperor without making any one of them "correct". I'm don't want to see him written by Graham "paraphrase God Delusion and call it a day" McNeill again. Maybe Wraight could do a good job? ADB did a good job of showing him as different depending on who the observer was, even if it does get misinterpreted by some.

[bluntblade]

Tell Don't Show with Sanguinius ends up a bit like Eidolon's early portrayals, when Counter and McNeill doubled down on his worst aspects. We were told he was this great leader but we only ever saw him stuff up. It took Chris Wraight showing him being smart and dangerous for people to take him seriously.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Emperors Children really suffer from that, they’re basically the Worf of the Traitor Legions. Now we need the same for Lucius, the “best swordsman in the Legions”, who’s been beaten by Loken, Erebus, Sharrowkyn, basically everyone except nameless mooks. Doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in his abilities.

[pandion40]

I was happy with the fight in Fear to Tread, I agree it takes away from the rematch in the siege but that’s a price I’m willing to pay, I think Sanguinius introduction needed that moment of awesome, though it was tarnished by the book being just ok. Signus was a massive system wide battle of the Blood Angels against Deamons, plus it introduced us to the 30k Blood Angels and all their characters, it was to much for one book.

 

I to would like to see Sanguinius stretched to his limits before he faces Horus but who can do that convincingly, not any normal Deamon and not Ka'Bandha after being so soundly defeated at Signus, a Deamons power in the material world does vary with how much warp energy is available, but Signus was awash with it an Ka'Bandha was still soundly defeated.

 

BL has said in the past that certain things will change in the siege, maybe Sanguinius fight will be one of them, maybe he’ll swat Ka'Bandha aside again and someone else steps forward, the old story of the siege had a staring contest between Sanguinius and Angron, so maybe expand that into a full battle, in the old story Sanguinius was almost defeated before finally winning and I just can’t see Ka'Bandha doing that convincingly after his abject failure at Signus, but Deamon Angron is a different story. It would also explain Ka'Bandha obsession with the Blood Angels, being humiliated twice by Sanguinius during the Heresy.

 

There are other Deamons more powerful than Ka'Bandha in theory but none of them have any real connection to Sanguinius that would enhance the fight. Anyone else have any ideas.

[nagashnee]

Not a huge fan of unneeded changes, but after the way Fear to tread went down i can see a deamon Angron working out. They have been building Angron up as a top dog fighter and the angel has been mentioned as one of the few who could stand a chance. Angron takes the upper hand early on before Sanginius lets go and embraces his full might to swing the fight. 

[bluntblade]

The Emperors Children really suffer from that, they’re basically the Worf of the Traitor Legions. Now we need the same for Lucius, the “best swordsman in the Legions”, who’s been beaten by Loken, Erebus, Sharrowkyn, basically everyone except nameless mooks. Doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in his abilities.

Lucius beat Erebus, which helped make Loken knocking him down impressive. Unfortunately Counter and McNeill felt the need to one-up what should have been a once-only event.

[Manchu warlord]

Do us, as readers, really need to read entire chapters that explain why Sanguinius is the one of the greatest, if not the greatest of the Primarchs?  Lion El'Jonson was considered the finest strategist, and second only to Horus in his military might, yet, we don't really get to see him demonstrate his ability; but do not get into the Lion, for this is about him and I was only using and example.  Personally, I've very okay with the lack of written-down paragraphs to explain his greatness.  He is an angel, he is benevolent and caring, and - somehow  - he is the most loved. 

 

Right... all of you, flee!  Flee for your lives, the Jarl is gonna flay us alive for this divergent of the topic.

[MarineRaider]

I personally from all that I have read ( over 200 books) think the Angel is one if not the greatest Primarch. But I base this on how he died compared to the others. One thing I hate/d in the 40k universe until now ( RG coming back) is how the loyal Primarchs either died ( supposedly) or disappeared. Corax by virtue of what I do for a day job and his legion was always my favorite but this running off reciting Alan Poe is simply ridiculous. Dorn going down...really?  etc etc. 

[bluntblade]

But the Lion's portrayal in multiple books is criticised for precisely that reason. We see a guy who takes a mallet to a delicate situation, not this brilliant tactician. Issues like this also occur with Horus and Ferrus to name just two more.

 

It'd be like if in Star Wars, a character described later by another as "a good friend" was mostly seen being obnoxious towards... you see where I'm going with this.

[Brother Lunkhead]

What we need is a clever writer to pen the next Sanguinius tale before the end..... Chris Wraight gets my vote on this. I think there is a lot more to Sanguinius and a bigger hidden flaw that needs to be explored before the end and I think a talented and clever author like Wraight could do this right. Here's my thinking on this.

 

How did Sanguinius put such an effective beat-down on Ka'Bandha at Signus when there was so much warp energy for this Daemon Prince to draw on?

 

Why did Horus want Sanguinius dead instead of turned at Signus?

 

I think there is more warp taint/power in Sanguinius than we know. He is called the Angel Sanguinius, but just how angelic is he? Not very.... several hints to this. For one, his legion is known for it's almost berserker fury in battle (black rage/red thirst barely in check). Then there are those angelic wings of his. They were not gifted to him by the Emperor, but manifested after he and his fellow Primarchs were whisked away from the Emperor's laboratory when they were test tube pups.

 

Horus saw him as a significant enough threat to his power and position to want him dead. I'll wager he knew more than Erebus did about the power of Sanguinius. I'm hoping this plays out in the near future.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I always figure if Horus turned Sanguinius he'd have an opponent for the Warmaster role.

 

To be blunt about it, most of the traitor primarchs were okay with the "flunky" role, aware enough that they couldnt be the Warmaster. 

Sanguinius is a whole other story, and a rival to the Warmaster in martial fury, political skills and personal relationships. Even the nutter Angron felt calmer.

[marine7312000]

As a BA player since I ever touched a model, my view on this would normally be skewed but I cannot help but agree that Sanguinius' portrayal so far in the series has been extremely lacking. I can admit I haven't read Scars so I may have to read through that but every other appearance has had moment of awesome. I realize that just about every Primarch has had their moments but I feel like the BA as a whole just haven't gotten the screentime of other legions. I feel like this is a great contributor to the fact that Sanguinius seems so underwhelming.

[bluntblade]

Scars has plenty

[Indefragable]

I deliberately put off this thread for some time, but now catching up on every single post.

 

 

For flaws of Sanguinius, his own self loathing would be his greatest flaw in my eyes.
If he had more confidence he would have been Warmaster

As it is, the things that make Sanguinius so iconic, his wings, make him so self concious in an age without gods and superstition.

On Primarch interactions, I know the Raven Guard under Corax weren’t keen on fighting alongside the Blood Angels, due to their excessively brutal assaults

 

Yes for wings piece....see my own write-up below.

 

Which source is the RG/Corax views on Sanguinius/BLA from?

 

Horus himself said it should have been Sanguinius...thats gotta count for something.

 

<nod>

This is a very deliberate moment in the very first book of the series. It can not ever be underestimated.

 

I think part of Sanguinius' depth is that he seems to regard how his brothers, and indeed almost everyone, see him as a curse. He sees himself for arguably what he is; a psyker, a mutant, and a tool for The Emperor to weild. He knows his story and roughly how it ends. He then has everyone around him telling him how great he is all the time, and they all hold him in higher esteem than he holds himself because he knows his own flaws while none of them have any idea. He's like the straight A student who plays 5 instruments, was the starting quarterback, president of the student council, but gets really bummed out because he really wishes that he could draw but has no artistic talent, and that's all he focuses on. So he looks around and thinks he isn't as efficient as The Lion, or as good at thinking defensively as Dorn, or as good as administrator as Guilliman, and completely loses sight of the fact that he's literally a mythical being made flesh.

 

<nod>

 

See my own write-up below.

 

 

‘Whatever you and Roboute decide will be exceptional,’ said the Blood Angel, a semblance of life returning to his features like a beautiful statue animating. He smiled, but it did not reach his eyes. ‘It would be a grand vanity to think I can improve on a design described by two such towering intellects.’

 

 

There is another moment in either Pharos or Angels of Caliban (I always get those two blurred together) where even the Lion--cold, aloof, comfortable-being-the- brother -- can't help but feel love and admiration for his brother Sanguinius. Something along the lines of how Sangy's self-depricating quips and jokes endear him so much by both lowering himself and raising up others.  The line above about "towering intellects" would probably come off as a backhanded compliment or a sarcastic insult from any other, but all of us (both in and out of universe) believe Sanguinius' sincerity when he says it.

 

 

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that Sanguinius is reluctant to do what was required of him, which was to be the regent of the Imperium.  And that his reluctance appears as if he is not taking his duty responsibly.     

 

I guess it might fall under the "self doubt" category that Sanguinius is famous for.

 

I think you're definitely on to something there.

 

 

Which raises the interesting question. What is Horus going to see the Emperor as during the Siege?

[Indefragable]

The question one must ask, when meditating on Sanguinius, is:

 

 

Was Sanguinius meant to have his wings?

 

 

Were the wings part of his design...his nature, or were they caused by the external forces of Chaos, Baal's hostile environment, or some other source...his nurturing?

 

Hidden Content

 

There is no doubt that Sanguinius thought about this for most of his life. Of the 18 demi-gods who were charged with seeing the grandest human endeavor ever brought to life, Sanguinius was different. His difference was apparent and obvious and inescapable. No Primarch (unless II or XI were mermaids or something) was as clearly far removed from baseline humanity as he. This contrast was even more extreme given the atheistic nature of the Imperium and Sang's overt religious symbolism.

 

From the very first moments of his conscious life, when the leader of the Blooded stayed his knife upon discovering the winged youth, to his foreseen death at his favorite brother's claws, Sanguinius had to prove his humanity. He had to prove his role in the universe, let alone at the head of his father's vanguard. The existential conflict of this "fey mutant" (to use Angron's words) informed his life, his purpose, and his actions. It was part of where his emotional nature came from: even demi-god can not contain his emotions when your very being appears at odds with the purpose for which you were created.

 

And those emotions were as much a strength as they were a perceived weakness. For just as melancholy and sorrow could be near-debilitating, so too could righteous fury be unstoppable in combat and victorious exultation be inspiring and energizing. What other Primarch weeps for his sons? Many pay lip service to their dead. Or discuss their concerns with an operation's potential cost to their geneseed. But Sanguinius so loves his genetic progeny that he tattoos his own flesh to mark their loss. How inspiring is that to his troops! <real world analogies removed>

 

No other Primarch --excluding the legitimately damaged Angron -- wore his flaws so plainly for all to see. Even Curze cloaked his deranged sense of justice in a Joker-esque sort of gallows humor and nihilism.

 

And we have not even talked about the Red Thirst. For the wings are but the outward aberration that he can not escape. And the genetic flaw is far more potentially damning.

 

It is no wonder that after Signus Prime--when everything he had been told wasn't real was proven to be quite lethally and existentially real--he was shackled by introspection and melancholy. For if daemons are real....then are angels, too? And if angels are real, then how can their blood be so corrupting?

 

So what was Sanguinius' flaw?

 

Self-doubt.

 

"My sin is the greatest."  He says in the opening lines of Ruinstorm. As @Manchu Warlord points out ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/?p=5066777 ), during the Imperium Secundus arc, people are operating on their genuine belief at the time that the Emperor is dead and Ultramar is all that is left. And in those moments, two of his brothers point out that Sanguinius is the best leader of them.

 

He could not see what others' saw in him. He knew the power his own imagery and abilities had over others, especially mortals, yet he could not see it himself.

 

It was no wonder Horus and Sanguinius were the best of friends: they were two sides of the same coin, in many ways. Both were peerless warriors and effortlessly charismatic leaders. Yet Horus' excellence came from a well of arrogance born of compensating for his daddy issues: his fear of abandonment...a flaw that ultimately led Horus into the titular Heresy that shaped the galaxy for 10,000+ years. Horus needed to be the best at all times to maintain that status; he had to be First Among Equals. Sanguinus' needed to be the best because he never could be the best in his own eyes. While others saw how his wings (both literal and metaphorical) could propel him to great heights, he only saw how they held him back and distanced him. Sanguinius admired Horus' confidence, how effortlessly he won at all he did, whether through charisma or martial might. Horus admired Sanguinius' ability to go toe-to-toe with all other in spite of his lack of confidence. I imagine Horus and Sanguinius sitting at a bar together, sharing a pitcher....Horus drinking in Sang's praise who he values more than anyone's but the Emperor's....and Sanguinius allowing Horus to actually build him up a bit and actually take a compliment from someone.

 

And it could well be that self-doubt that almost cost the loyalist war effort and indeed the survival of humanity.

 

At Signus, Sanguinius is so ready to sacrifice himself to save his sons when put in the conundrum by the two greater daemons. Why? Because he feels he has no other option when later on--when he puts his mind to it--he epically owns both daemons with his own bare hands (and gets some good one-liners in as well). And Signus can be seen as a microcosm of Sanguinius' effect on the HH as a whole: If Sanguinius had only done something sooner then perhaps Horus' efforts could have been defeated much sooner and at far less cost.

 

If Sanguinius didn't actually believe that the Emperor was dead, then why didn't he act on his beliefs earlier (I mean, he is Regent-Emperor, no one can tell him no) and probe the Ruinstorm for routes like they finally start doing at the beginning of that titular novel. If he does believe the Emperor is dead, then sure, heavy is the head that wears the crown  and all, but dammit…do something!

 

Yet of course it is easy for us to judge since we are not the ones that are living a lie…we are not the ones who are trapped between being a hypocrite or the bad egg that should not have hatched…

 

 

TL;DR:

...if Sanguinius was meant to have his wings, then that meant he was supposed to be an angel…and what role does an angel play in Imperial Reason? He is a walking hypocrisy. If he was not meant to have his wings, then he is an aberration…a mutant…a walking flaw to the Emperor's design. He has failed before he has even begun.

Either possibility catches him in an existential crisis that he cannot mentally escape from. His vision is obscured to the point that only moments of extremes clear the fog from his eyes and allows his true inner nature of the angelic protector to come out. And that is the best hope all of humanity has against the encroaching tide of Horus' chaos. For Horus's flawless exterior hides a shallow core while Sanguinius' outward self-doubt belies an empowering righteous vision.

 

 

"Brave men are all vertebrates; they have their softness on the surface and their toughness in the middle."

 

-G.K. Chesteron

[Indefragable]

Aside on Signus Prime:

 

Hidden Content

I feel like I reference Black Hawk Down all the time, but I think Signus Prime has some similarities: they are both victories that are perceived and feel like defeats.

 

In BHD, their mission was to capture the Somali warlord's key lieutenants and extract them. They successfully do that. The mission is a success...but the flow of the battle and the many unexpected events and subsequent casualties hit the psyche hard enough that the success is forgotten.

 

Signus Prime had the following objectives:

 

The overt "official" ones for Sanguinius/IX Legion:

• Liberate the system, save whatever lives can be saved

 

The covert, "real" reason for the traitors to send them there:

• isolate a sizeable force for the duration of the rebellion
• kill or convert a potent ally (Sanguinius)
• kill or convert a potent force (IX Legion)

 

Despite the "official" objectives being a ruse and thus bunk, Sang/IX still manage to achieve them: the system is already lost, so thus any lives saved are a good thing. And what's more, they manage to defeat the "xenos" presence.

 

...and what's more, despite not knowing the "real" reasons for being sent there, Sang/IX still manage to deny the enemy 2.5/3 of the "real" objectives for the campaign: neither Sanguinius nor the IX Legion are wiped out, nor do either of them convert to Horus' cause. And yes, they are isolated for a good duration of the Heresy, both during the Signus campaign as well as having to evacuate to the only place accessible to them--Ultramar--where they are essentially holed up for a longer duration. But they still remain a fleet-in-being until actually striking out to reach Terra. So Horus gets a .5 win for that one.

 

What's more--and I do hope HH Book 8: Malevolence explores this, is that given the circumstances, the BA basically kick major ass.

 

Don't forget that daemons don't exist to the Imperium at this point in time. They are officially some ancient superstition to be chalked up with the tooth fairy. So when the IX Legion is ambushed at Signus, they are fighting ghosts...they are fighting things that aren't supposed to exist. These are figments of imagination that are suddenly made real...real enough to gnaw your chest open...and they are in numbers and scale enough to ambush an entire Space Marine Legion. This is the largest ambush in human history, both physically and psychologically. And their genesire is taken out of the fight for a bit....

 

...yet they still manage to overcome through strength of arms and personal heroism/leadership by Sanguinius.

 

That's got to be a victory of some sort...no?

 

But we readers have a mixed, if not negative, perception of it partially in reflection of Sanguinius' own dim view of the aftermath (he's understandably shaken up on multiple levels) and partially because of the novel Fear to Tread itself. The novel is part of the "first wave" of HH books that has that undefinable difference in tone, content, and writing that marks the earlier HH novels apart from their more recent entries. It was also THE BIG BLOOD ANGELS one that was their moment in the sun after 18+ novels with a few paragraphs at most showcasing them. As such, while Fear to Tread is actually not a bad read at all, it does not delve into what makes the IX Legion tick at all--especially compared to the other other 17 Legions--beyond something something Red Thirst something something.

 

As such, Signus Prime will always have a bit of a smear on it, at least until Malevolence comes out and gives us the FW view on it.

 

 

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Indefragable:

 

Please keep all comments PC and friendly. 

 

 

*takes off mod hat*

 

Im still looking for the Corax/BA quote. I could have sworn I've read that somewhere before so now Im re-reading everything RG related I can get my hands on to find it again. I had to reread Deliverance Lost, something I wouldnt wish on anybody. 
Thats how diligent Im trying to be.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Brother Indefragable, I think you bring up some excellent queries and points with your last two posts 

 

Sang's Wings: I think it's safe to say that they were not part of the Emperor's genetic design. Although never stated, it is alluded to in much of the literature. If you are building a secular empire with no tolerance for any sort of theism it would be counterproductive to have one of your great generals look like an angel. No, I believe this to be a chaos taint. To Sanguinius' credit, a taint that he has turned into an asset. To me one of the things that makes Sang great and make me like him so much is that with all the doubts and burdens he carries he still shines (and deservedly so) as one of the greats in 40K lore.

 

Blood Angels Down (The Battle of Signus Prime): Your reference to Black Hawk Down was excellent. It's one of my favorites that is also a great study of the warrior ethos, a point that is sadly overlooked more often than not. I would also reference another battle that illustrates your point, the battle of the bulge. Hitler makes one final offensive move to seize Antwerp and the western bank of the Scheldt estuary. The end result was failure for Hitler and depletion of his forces. The western allies were able to hold the line but suffered severe casualties (largest loss of American personnel in a single operation of the war) and delay in plans of four to six weeks.  A victory of sorts for the allies but at a high cost with no tactical and little strategic gain.

 

You make good points about the losses and gains for both Sanguinius and Horus, so I won't repeat the details. It is a victory of sorts for Sanguinius. He proves the metal of himself and his legion against a powerful enemy (chaos) that he and his legion had until this point had little knowledge of and were unprepared for by the Emperor (thanks Dad). Sanguinius defeats the forces of chaos and holds on to his soul and the soul of his legion. Horus is able to deny territory and resources to the Empire (Signus is tainted) but is denied his true goal, the death (or turning) of Sanguinius and the turning of his legion. Sanguinius also gains valuable knowledge about chaos. And as the Mechanicum says, "knowledge is power".

 

Fear to Tread is the first HH novel featuring Sanguinius in a major role. We learn a great deal about Sang and the Blood Angels and get a huge battle with chaos. For me, lots of awesome sauce. A lot of folks are rather meh on this book, but I think it's one of the best. I like James Swallow's thick prose and it fits well with this story. We still need more meat on Sanguinius' story (Ruinstorm wasn't it) before the end.