Sanguinius and his flaws or otherwise

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

golly ROFLMAO.

 

Thanks for making my day .

[bluntblade]

Now, mature fraters, I recognise that passage is very much open to interpretation, but to me it's significant that AD-B brings up that portrayal at all. Compared to the serene, outwardly perfect Sanguinius we see in Horus Rising and Scars, this is a glimpse behind the facade, however slight.

[Scribe]

Sanguinius questioning his position is not new...why is this even controversial?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Let us clutch as straws

[TheRealMcCagh]

Sanguinius questioning his position is not new...why is this even controversial?

 

I was wondering that myself. He's always been a bit put off by the worship he gets. I've never seen a portrayal of him where he enjoys it. I don't remember Sanguinius in MoM at all, but that quote makes perfect sense with everything we know of the Angel. Lorgar says something about it in Betrayer, and the heaps of praise he gets in Ruinstorm immediately clues him in to it be fraudulent 

[bluntblade]

Let us clutch as straws

Then, pray, why would the author have written that in a way which would inevitably call attention to itself?

 

I see it more as Sanguinius getting tons of sincere praise, but it jarring badly with his worries about his own nature.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I see a black flower and it reminds me of the death of the Emperor.

[bluntblade]

What?

[Scribe]

 

 

Sanguinius questioning his position is not new...why is this even controversial?

I was wondering that myself. He's always been a bit put off by the worship he gets. I've never seen a portrayal of him where he enjoys it. I don't remember Sanguinius in MoM at all, but that quote makes perfect sense with everything we know of the Angel. Lorgar says something about it in Betrayer, and the heaps of praise he gets in Ruinstorm immediately clues him in to it be fraudulent

Fear to Tread is pretty clear on this Sanguinius is not confident, and is full of self doubt, due to his mutation.

 

I mean this is why I struggle to see some view points, Sanguinius being uncomfortable with attention is a given.

 

That's his character, as of current canon, in the HH...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He’s not a mutant he is a meta Primarch. If you want him to be full of doubt spulain how he crushed lots of greater Daemons. What it really is you want him to be messed for your own reasons so you project here and quite poorly at that TBH

[Scribe]

His obvious mutation has been a character hook since forever in the HH. Crushing a lot of Daemons is exactly relevant how? He's not 'messed up', he's a character, with doubts, depth, and strengths. 

 

If you can read Fear to Tread and not see a character with doubts...you are not reading.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I read it and have to say I find you quite lacking.

[Scribe]

Thats fine, you are entitled to incorrect views. ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Which Primarch is your favorite

[Brother Lunkhead]

Dweezil, Primarch of the XI Legion.... he's my favorite 

 

Yes, Sanguinius has doubts, as does Horus, as does the Khan, as does.... almost everyone. As Scribe states, "he's not messed up" and even though he seems to give thought to his more and seems more self reflective there is no indication that this is a flaw. I have seen no evidence that Sanguinius is crippled or impaired in any way by his self reflective nature.

[Scribe]

Which Primarch is your favorite

 

The most flawed and broken ones.

 

Feel free to guess.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Dweezil? 

[Manchu warlord]

Mr. Orange, you have returned! Now, you must slay all the heretics.

[bluntblade]

None of us, it seems to me, dislike Sanguinius or want him to fail, except maybe where Swallow partially retconned the business with Kha'bandha. It's just that we find the notion of an absolutely perfect hero with nothing to overcome but external adversity really quite dull.

 

And really, authors have plainly put this stuff in for a reason. Lorgar does not say, for example, "Erebus, Sanguinius is bound to the Emperor by perfect loyalty which is much, much more perfect than Horus'. That's why you'll never turn him."

[bluntblade]

My point was that Sanguinius would likely have struggled with the pressures of being Warmaster more than Horus. Seeing as everyone but the Lion and a feverish, dying Horus says Horus was the best choice, I really don't see what's so controversial about that. Admittedly the shortcomings in so many of Horus' portrayals will surely fill a thread of their own before long.

 

I'd like to get Sanguinius' perspective at Nikaea, as currently his presence is largely decorative and Raldoran is shown consulting with Russ.

 

It's possible that Fear to Tread's change-up of the fight with Ka'bandha makes the long brooding act through the IS arc more egregious. Keeping that as a Round 1 loss after Sanguinius' victory over the other Greater Daemon might have helped to give him a different dynamic and kept him off his backside.

[Dagoth Ur]

He’s not a mutant he is a meta Primarch. If you want him to be full of doubt spulain how he crushed lots of greater Daemons. What it really is you want him to be messed for your own reasons so you project here and quite poorly at that TBH

 

A....meta primarch? Where did you pull that one from? In what way is he...meta? All primarchs are already meta-humans. He is in no way an entity that lies beyond what a "regular" primarch is in terms of philosophy, nor is he any sort of intermediary entity that sits between primarchs, primarchs and humans or primarch and emperor. Meta Primarch as term makes no sense.

 

A doubtful person can commit grand feats of heroism and destruction, hell, literature is full with them and it reaches back to ancient times (Vergil's Aeneas, Rüdeger and Brynhild in the Lay of the Nibelungs, Parzival, Iwein, Doctor Manhattan, the newer depictions of Superman, Hellboy, Frodo, Bilbo, Turin Turambar and many more come to mind). It is one of the most common tropes when it comes to writing a physically powerful character. Sanguinius is not interesting because he can roflstomp greater demons, that's the most boring thing about him I'd argue instead. It is the inside of his mind that makes him such a fascinating character.

It is still not cleared, as far as I am aware, if Sanguinius' wings are by the Emperor's design or a result of chaos/radiation taint and mutation; or at the very least not to Sanguinius. It is precisely here that his inner conflict emerges. Was he designed as an Angel in a secular empire that is presided by a man that would see all things related to faith and religion abolished, which would include angels? is he a mutant and thus undesirable by the imperium's own creed and, to a certain extent, due to his experiences growing up in Baal's irradiated dustbowls? Whichever way you turn it, the very core of his physical existence is paradoxical and he is not given the tools and information neccessary to deduce the truth.

 

Add to that the grief that the red thirst causes him. Sanguinius has repeteadly been shown to adore his sons; so much so that he would give himself to chaos to spare them from the red thirst. Again, he struggles with the idea that the red thirst is something inherent in his blood and genes and that it is because of his own flaw that his sons suffer. He is a father who loves his sons above all else and yet he sees a terrible curse in them, a curse that, to his eyes, he is to fault for. Again the question can be asked if the red thirst was engineered on purpose or if it is the result of taint (We know the answer but Sanguinius doesn't). If the Emperor engineered Sanguinius and his sons that way, then he has willingly bestowed this curse and suffering upon them by creating monsters. Sanguinius would struggle very much to accept this because he loves his father like few of the primarchs do. The other possibility is that Sanguinius and his blood are tainted, which makes him a mutant and thus this wraps back to the point of being a mutant in an empire that despises such things.

 

He is not "messed up" due to being full of self doubt (What a terrible thing to imply), he is human! Doubt is one of the most human emotions; the search for the truth and reason of one's own existence is one of humanity's oldest struggles! If anything is done poorly here, it is your reading of Sanguinius as a character since you clearly don't see much more in him than the "OMGUBERHAXXOR" slayer of demons, despite novels clearly implying, and at times outright stating, much much more.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Pre-heresy Horus had different traits that made him more suited to be warmaster. I don't think Sanguinius' predilection for self-reflection ( imo this is a more accurate term as opposed to self-doubt) would be a problem. His biggest and most crippling problems are the double whammy of the black and red genetic flaws. I think these alone would cause him to decline the honor (burden?).

 

I fully agree that whatever flaws or chinks Sanguinius has in his armor make him more interesting. I don't think they made him weak or indecisive, but some, like his compassion and a certain naïve honesty could be used against him. 

 

Black Orange let's clear this up right now..... My take on this whole situation is that Sang is taking a lot of somewhat exaggerated hits in some areas and you are just defending him. What is your positon? I think this is all  getting blown waaaayyy out of perspective. 

[Scribe]

The Observer, is correct. :p

[bluntblade]

Nicely put, Observer.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Meh meta Primarch would have done a better job that’s for sure