Cabalistic Focus and Rubric Marines Rules Help

[Lucky_Lee]

Ok, so I'm building my Thousand Sons and I'm deciding what kind of force I'd like to build. While musing and looking over the rules I came across cabalistic focus. It reads "Use this Stratagem before attempting to manifest a psychic power with a Thousand Sons Psyker from your army that is within 6" of at least 2 other friendly Thousand Sons Psykers. You can add 2 to the Psychic test."

 

When looking at the data sheet for Rubric Marines I noticed all of the models share the Psyker keyword. So can a single combat squad of an Aspiring Sorcerer and 4 Rubricae be enough to activate the stratagem?

 

I asked the manager at the local warhammer store about it. At first he tried to say just the sorcerer, but I pulled the data sheet out and then he said the unit would only count as one psyker. I didn't like his answer because if they all have the keyword they should all count. If the Culexus assassin threw a psyk-out grenade he'd get the bonus against any one of them right?

 

Am I crazy? Am I right? Did I miss something in a faq?

[Quixus]

You are right indeed. the whole unit has the PSYKER keyword and the rule does not specify that you need two other psyker units to benefit.

 

The intention obviously is that you need two other psyker units.

[Lucky_Lee]

Ok, I'm going full Necromancer on this because someone about table flipped on me tonight. I was hoping to get some more community input.

 

I deepstrike a Termie Sorcerer with Familiar and the High Magister Trait. (For a +2 to cast)

 

I followed him with a unit of Scarab Occult Terminators. They all have the psyker keyword.

 

I popped cabalistic focus on Smite giving me a total of +4 to the roll. Sure enough I roll a 7 for that sweet 11+. His Emperor's Champion gets deleted. Then I mop up the crusaders next to him. (He failed to deny)

 

He was really upset that I used CF that way. I explained it and everything. I just wanna be 100% sure I'm reading this right. (No one wants to be "that guy")

[Slasher956]

ok MRB pg 178 has this to say

 

 

1. Choose Psyker and Power Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet.

 

Now we look at Rubic Marines (I dont have the 1K sons codex...) in the CSM codex.

 

PSYKER An Aspiring Sorcerer can attempt to manifest one psychic power in each friendly Psychic phase, and attempt to deny one psychic power in each enemy Psychic phase. He knows the Smite psychic power. When an Aspiring Sorcerer manifests the Smite psychic power, he inflicts 1 mortal wound instead of D3, or D3 mortal wounds instead of D6 if the result of the Psychic test is more than 10

 

 KEYWORDS INFANTRY, PSYKER, RUBRIC MARINES

 

Now it can be argued that only the Aspiring Sorcerer is a psyker as the datasheet has an entry for psyker and states Aspiring Sorcerer who has a seperate stat line.

 

How ever as you said the Keyword PSYKER is for the unit... but I would argue that its poor layout rather that rules and that the Aspiring sorcerer should have a keyword line for them selves.....

 

 

So RAW, yes the whole unit has the keyword psyker and so gain any benefit or negative that affects psykers as the data sheet doesnt make an exception either way..... how ever I would argue that RAI would be only the aspiring sorcerer is the psyker and the should have his own keyword entry line.

 

 

EDIT - RAI support is from the horrors (new entry in the FAQ)

 

PSYKER This unit can attempt to manifest one psychic power

 

see how the psyker entry talks about the unit being a psykers.  

 

So I would say two horrors from the same unit or two Aspiring Champs from seperate units would be needed.  (as all ranges are messured to or from the model not the unit... other wise my flamers could stand at the back of the unit and hit you so long as 1 model in in 8" of you )

 

Edit:  see my post lower down... I have changed my mind... the unit are all psykers and so count as individual models until GW errata either the strategem or all units AS' to give them a seperate keyword line

[Lucky_Lee]

@slasher956

 

My only concern and my principal argument was that RAW as stated in the original post was that things that target Psykers or have negative effects on them also affect my rubrics. Especially if the Aspiring Sorcerer is alive. Say for instance a psyk-out grenade gets the mortal wound with a 6. That wound doesn't kill the Aspiring Sorcerer in all likelyhood it kills a rubric marine and the actual damage could possibly get a second one. And if he throws another on the next turn? More Rubrics die. Seems a little unfair that he should get the bonus of tossing grenades into my expensive troops and get special bonuses if I can't get my mileage out of them.

 

Thank you for the feed back. Would love to hear more opinions.

[Quixus]

The flip side is that the mortal wounds from perils of the warp can be allocated to the rubrics.

[Slasher956]

As it stands in RAW you are correct and every model in the unit is a psyker for all rules just without ability to manifest any powers / deny, as only the Aspiring Sourcer has those, and consider the actual powers like a weapon upgrade.  I mean as a member of the squad he'll be the last one removed anyway :p

 

Which raises the point no rule allows you to target an individual squad member (otherwise you would have heavy weapon sniping back). So if the unit didnt have the keyword PSYKER you would have to raise the cost of the AS as he would be untargetable by units costed to hunt him down. (but lower the cost as he wouldnt have a whole unit to shield him from Perils)

 

My initial look on RAI for this case was an interpretation based on the psyker powers entry, nothing else.  I've had another think on this and realised that no you are right to go with RAW.....Therefore I would (until its changed) before the game tell your opponent you are going with RAW unless they have a reason for not doing so.

 

So if they dont want you using the strategem on an AS inside his unit away from everyone else then they need to ERRATA the strategm to include the word units

 

To counter the store managers comments I'd point to the main rulebook pg 174- 175

 

 

Each unit has a datasheet that lists the characteristics, wargear and abilities of the models in that unit

 

 

9.Keywords <snip> Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models that have a specific keyword.

[Lysere]

The easiest fix would have been GW just saying other psyker units but go figure. RAW it is a bit hazy so just be clear with your opponent beforehand and if they disagree you can handle it at the start of the game and not just after you blast a character off the table.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not worth upsetting an opponent.

[Lucky_Lee]

@black orange

 

There seems to,be,some confusion here so let me clear it up. My opponent who happens to also be my best bud and I talked about it before the game. He wasn't actually angry. He just strongly disagrees that it SHOULD work that way.

 

I came here to see if I was wrong. And I don't think I am. I just wanted to see some more points of view.

 

I do think however it would behoove GW to errata this to two Psyker Units. Not just two psykers. So much so I emailed the faq team about it.

 

Until then or till someone can bring forth a convincing argument it looks to me like this is how it's played. I may try to catch the guys at the long war and ask them how it's played in a tournament format. Specifically ITC.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you’re not sure then don’t do it.

[Dam13n]

Let's keep this focused on rules going forward please. Gaming etiquette is important, but not relevant to a rules discussion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I believe RAW is still open to question regarding this one tbh .

[Panzer]

To me RAW is pretty clear and doesn't favour RAI. It's one of the cases where the RAI seems to be so clear that we simply don't want to believe the RAW. Doesn't change how it works tho.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play in SoCal home of the ITC and you cannot do it here.

[Lysere]

To me RAW is pretty clear and doesn't favour RAI. It's one of the cases where the RAI seems to be so clear that we simply don't want to believe the RAW. Doesn't change how it works tho.

 

By RAW Assault weapons can't be fired after advancing, doesn't matter how the rule is written since everyone understands how it should work. (Nothing in the rules allows you to select a unit that advanced in the shooting phase)

 

By the Rules as they Are Written yes you can play it that way, but similar abilities check based on units not models, and whats the point of having a stratagem that can be used so easily with an army like Thousand Sons. Playing it the way most people understand it to work isn't even that hard due to how many psyker units they have.