Stray Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 My poor poor Blood Angels. Bad kitty! Chaos knights are shaping up to be a powerhouse! With the twin avengers and that strat you mentioned plus serious psychic phase defense that’s crazy. Do you think we’ll just see twin avenger knights on the table? I suspect we'll see a lot of them, yes. Most Knight players are keenly aware that the Avenger is our best option as a general purpose gun. When you can double up on them for less than an Avenger + RFBC Crusader, it's silly not to. I have a double Thermal Cannon Knight as well which I haven't fielded yet. It's hard to say how efficient that would be. Frankly, with the advent of some of the new Knight options we have better anti-armour options now, albeit for more points. I suspect it'd have its place though. A twin RFBC option might actually work out. Normally the issue I'd have with that gun, is that its sole strength is its range. Using that range negates any other weapon option you have however. But not so if you're packing two of them... A 'sniper' Knight setup might be viable in some situations - especially if there is strat content which helps counter the swingy nature of that weapon? I'm thinking the Valiant actually looks VERY solid too. Infernal bonuses can make it significantly faster, and its flamer is one of THE best weapons to use the extra point of strength and damage. 3D6, Str 8 D3 that auto hits? If you can connect with the Harpoon too, you'll just about kill an entire Knight on average each turn... An average roll from the buffed flamer alone will smoke a 14 wound T7 vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5341946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_b Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 My poor poor Blood Angels. Bad kitty! Chaos knights are shaping up to be a powerhouse! With the twin avengers and that strat you mentioned plus serious psychic phase defense that’s crazy. Do you think we’ll just see twin avenger knights on the table? I suspect we'll see a lot of them, yes. Most Knight players are keenly aware that the Avenger is our best option as a general purpose gun. When you can double up on them for less than an Avenger + RFBC Crusader, it's silly not to. I have a double Thermal Cannon Knight as well which I haven't fielded yet. It's hard to say how efficient that would be. Frankly, with the advent of some of the new Knight options we have better anti-armour options now, albeit for more points. I suspect it'd have its place though. A twin RFBC option might actually work out. Normally the issue I'd have with that gun, is that its sole strength is its range. Using that range negates any other weapon option you have however. But not so if you're packing two of them... A 'sniper' Knight setup might be viable in some situations - especially if there is strat content which helps counter the swingy nature of that weapon? I'm thinking the Valiant actually looks VERY solid too. Infernal bonuses can make it significantly faster, and its flamer is one of THE best weapons to use the extra point of strength and damage. 3D6, Str 8 D3 that auto hits? If you can connect with the Harpoon too, you'll just about kill an entire Knight on average each turn... An average roll from the buffed flamer alone will smoke a 14 wound T7 vehicle. I’m a slow builder and painter so I am just now working on my first armiger. I’ve got to say the idea of facing multiple chaos knights is terrifying. Just the way it should be I suppose. I’ve got a couple neutronagers and will have some warglaives soon. That’s a start but a far cry from what’s needed vs. knight heavy armies. I have only fought one knight army and lost. It was a doubles game and fun but I saw how powerful knights can be especially when they get first turn. Do you think it’s best to kill a knight before moving on to the next? That’s what we did in our game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5341949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 Oh dear god..: 'When you’re assembling your Chaos Knights army, you can opt to give any of your Chaos Knights the Dreadblade keyword. This doesn’t replace its Iconoclast or Infernal keyword, and if they’re part of a Detachment with other Knights with the same keyword, they’ll still benefit from Conquerors Without Mercy or Daemonic Surge in addition to their Dreadblade abilities!' Dreadblades look to have essentially no drawbacks! Sure, if you fail a leadership roll, you may have a penalty (which you can choose, and therefore potentially make irrelevant to your build), but with no 'house traits' apparent, and specific bonuses a Dreadblade can take, why wouldn't you? I'm shocked they can still be Iconoclast or Infernal, and have to wonder at the wisdom of this... :O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5341950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 I have only fought one knight army and lost. It was a doubles game and fun but I saw how powerful knights can be especially when they get first turn. Do you think it’s best to kill a knight before moving on to the next? That’s what we did in our game. I'd say it often is, yeah :/ Personally, I'd like to see the degrading stat profile made a bit harsher? As it stands, Imperial Knights have strats that can avoid all penalties entirely, and frankly you can mitigate much of it as Renegades too. I got reduced to half wounds, making my BS 4+, so I popped a strat giving me re-rolls on all misses. That's pretty much 18 out of 24 Avenger shots that will likely now land - it doesn't feel like much of a penalty when you'd see just 16 land at full profile! When the next stage of degradation is beneath 7 wounds, you can see how dangerous Knights remain until they are down really. So generally, yes. I'd focus one until you pop it buddy, rather than trying to weaken several - it just doesn't generally make enough of a difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5341958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 Here we go, more naughty Knight goodness badness: First, we have the 'make all knights a character and give them relics' strat which our pitiable, lesser, Imperial counterparts have (they smell too!) So nothing new here, but what exactly is a Knight Abhorrent? It's not a Valiant, as the Dominus class are both elsewhere referred to as a 'Tyrant'. So Cerastus Chassis maybe? That'd be quite a coup... Intriguing... Speaking of relics: One use only, but quite nasty. On something like a key character, this is a killer, effectively being an undeniable Death Hex. More relics: Not bad. Good if you're using a screen, but as I'd screen with Daemons anyway personally, irrelevant in lists I've been eyeing. Here's the mysterious laser weapon we've spotted on the Chaos Knight models, as we suspected, it IS on the Preceptor role mirror: And it's not bad. I like the possibility of mortal wounds, but the chance is fairly low. Range is great, and it hits fairly hard. Seems reasonably comparable to a Thermal cannon really. Here's the spikey version of the Preceptor bonus: Familiar stuff above, however this is new and VERY nice in generally CP starved vanilla Knight lists: Pretty much an auto-take in the current meta tbh. Combined with some of the similar effects from other Chaos artifacts though, and the huge possible CP from the new Chaos Marine Codex and this has me somewhat worried from a balance perspective... There's a Dreadblade trait which can also add an extra CP, and as far as we know, there are no signifcant drawbacks to taking Dreadblades. If it's worth (and possible) to take that same trait on each, and you could be hitting 20+ CP before ever rolling a dice. Which seems very, very silly to me. Continuing the theme of me being worried, Trail of Destruction has been changed. Before, it was 2CP, and allowed one Knight to re-roll all hits (in either shooting or melee). It's very good, and the cost is appropriate... Look at it now: All hits and wounds? There's no cost, but if this is correct (I think they've shown the Apoc version) it's now silly good. It'll get played every turn! (Edit: They did indeed put the wrong information up in the preview, for only the third time this week... The strat has changed, but doesn't effect wound rolls. It can however now also be used in over watch - great when fishing for 6's on that twin Avenger Knight:) Exciting stuff for sure, but I have to say that so far, this looks to be Codex: Imperial Knights +1. People will love it, but I'd really, really have preferred a simple toolkit that allows me to win games on my own merit, and lose them when my opponent is better. Not one where I win because I suddenly own the most powerful set of rules in the land :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Takatus Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 I like the idea of the Khornate Target. Knight duels will seem that much more deadly. I like how it's got a disadvantage built into it, it is quite an appropriate modification for a Khornate Knight. That new Laser weapon looks fairly tasty too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Looking at this book maybe I gotta get back on that Xanite nonsense.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 I like the idea of the Khornate Target. Knight duels will seem that much more deadly. I like how it's got a disadvantage built into it, it is quite an appropriate modification for a Khornate Knight. That new Laser weapon looks fairly tasty too. The likes of Rowboat Girlyman isn't going to like that Relic much - something I can certainly get behind :) The laser is alright. It's probably too swingy, and probably also has too little in the way of number of shots also. But we'll see. I might mathhammer it out and see how it stacks up on average compared to our other options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 Looking at this book maybe I gotta get back on that Xanite nonsense.... Charlo, you should totally write some kind of humorous backstory for your Malinax Knights: "Despite the decision of our traitorous kin, we shall remain loyal to the Emperor!" 10,000 years later... *Spots a dual avenger Dreadblade* "On the other hand..." I'd read it :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 "on the other hand, my other hand is literally a second gattling cannon. Dakka dakka loyalist pig dogs" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 A word of warning for the Knight inclined tournament players... FLG provided information from the first few tournaments allowing Chaos Knights. Apparently, your Knights MUST either use the Chaos Knight Kits, OR be converted to look like Chaos Knights. No proxies of Imperial Knights while calling them Chaos. Seems fair enough, but worth bearing in mind - you probably wouldn't be allowed to proxy Ultramarines as Black Legion at an organised event either I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 I like the idea of the Khornate Target. Knight duels will seem that much more deadly. I like how it's got a disadvantage built into it, it is quite an appropriate modification for a Khornate Knight. That new Laser weapon looks fairly tasty too. The likes of Rowboat Girlyman isn't going to like that Relic much - something I can certainly get behind The laser is alright. It's probably too swingy, and probably also has too little in the way of number of shots also. But we'll see. I might mathhammer it out and see how it stacks up on average compared to our other options. Mathhammered the Laser. It's appallingly bad. Averages a single MEQ kill, 4 wounds off a Rhino type vehicle, or two from a Knight per turn. It really doesn't improve even if you buff it with Trail of Destruction :/ Avoid! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Takatus Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Aww. I saw the range and the high strength and thought it had potential.. I suppose I should have looked more closely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Ruminahui Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Well, on average it is akin to 2 lascannons that have a longer range, + 1 to wound anything T 5-7, and a slight chance to generate additional mortal wounds. So its only appallingly bad depending on its point cost - if it is roughly the cost of 2 lascannons, then its appropriately costed. I will agree that it's the worst of the knight arm weapons we have seen before, but it could still have a place if cheap enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Author Share Posted July 6, 2019 Well, on average it is akin to 2 lascannons that have a longer range, + 1 to wound anything T 5-7, and a slight chance to generate additional mortal wounds. So its only appallingly bad depending on its point cost - if it is roughly the cost of 2 lascannons, then its appropriately costed. I will agree that it's the worst of the knight arm weapons we have seen before, but it could still have a place if cheap enough. Possibly. I think that's certainly a good observation. The problem I'd have with a Lascannon comparison is that, they themselves tend to not be worth taking in the current meta. They have high strength and good damage, but the low number of shots they are capable of is what hurts them in an edition where their favourite targets tend to be defended by invulnerability saves. It's one of the reasons why you see the competitive scene utilising weapons with somewhat lower strength, but greater shots - Dissie Ravagers in Dark Eldar lists beings a good example here. (The higher the number of shots you can put out, the more efficient a weapon becomes under most buff effects too). I think you're quite right in that cost will be very important here (and maybe there will be a relic version, or strat that can effect it and blow us all away?), but with it currently being so much poorer than any other Knight weapon option - even the really rather bad Preceptor laser weapon - it feels like a waste of the Knights arm spot/weapon platform to field it, almost regardless of points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Author Share Posted July 6, 2019 News hot off the press... Renegades get PSYCHIC KNIGHTS! A relic called the 'Tzeenchian Pyrothrone' allows this, and enables the casting of smite and denial of up to two powers per turn! Praise be the dark gods for rewarding the faith of your servants. (also, if you could clean out my litter box, that'd be great). I'm reading through the actual codex now, so more news as I get it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliomanes Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 Ok. That's it. I'm converting my knights and admech to a psychic powered band of renegades supporting my Thousand Sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Author Share Posted July 6, 2019 Ok, so... it's solid. The most exciting stuff was broadly in the previews (as usual), and in terms of relics and strats otherwise, almost everything is an exact mirror of the Imperial codex. Present is the Thunderstrike gauntlet, full tilt, death grip, ignore degradation strat (but this last as a relic instead) etc - some not even renamed. Right, so to the differences: 'Rampagers' are different (and slightly more expensive at base) than Gallants. Rampagers and Gallants are the same stat wise, except for two additional rules on the Rampager. Firstly Rampagers may NEVER take a carapace weapon, and secondly, while making attacks with gauntlet or chainsword, they generate an extra attack on every 6 rolled to hit. So broadly, they get a slight melee advantage, while losing almost all ranged weapons. The new relics are Psychic relic as above, and another really, really nice one called 'The Quicksilver Throne of Slaanesh' This gives +1 on the charge, and the 'always fights first' ability - which on a Rampager... yeah. It's pretty sick. 'Helm of Warpsight' allows a unit to ignore all minus to hit modifiers - pretty good. Interestingly (and this will be quite controversial if I'm correct...) there is NO mention in the codex of any unit called an 'Abhorrant' yet the 'Extra relic' & 'Extra warlord trait' mirror strats *specifically* call this Knight type out to allow these strats to be used... I think this HAS to therefore, be referring to Renegade Cerastus class Knights. My hope is, this will be FAQ'd for Imperials too, because as I recall, Cerastus Knights can't make use of the Imperial strats. Warlord traits: One obsec thing carried over from the Index. A scrap code one that gives an aura that causes a mortal wound to enemy vehicles on a 4+ (6" aura), extra attack, Warp Tainted hull - Gives a psychic deny roll, and gives a 5+++ vs psychic mortal wounds, +1 to advance rolls and +1 attack when in the enemy deployment zone, Aura of Terror - enemies are at -1 to charge rolls vs this unit, and if they take a leadership test, they have to do so on 2d6 discarding lowest (would stack great with an Atrapos and the Traitors Mark). There is other stuff, most of it minor or already discussed. (Edit: Possible points weirdness going on also. It looks like a renegade Gallant (not a rampager, but a standard knight with CC weapons) is only 305 points... Slight tax increase of around 20 points on Twin Avengers though). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5342804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 I can give some insight here regarding Twin-Avengers and Twin-Thermal Cannons, at least against other Knights. I frequently field my Chaos Knights against my son's and other friends' Knight armies... Avengers are nigh useless against Knights. Twin-Avengers are only slightly less useless but still not optimal in any way. Perhaps the bump to STR will help a bit. Twin-Thermals are nasty. One round of even mediocre shooting can strip a Knight down to half and they pair well with Armigers or Gallants (or Rampagers or whatever they're called now). I think it's the sleeper build since everyone is so obsessed with Avengers, and it's success has led to me kitting out my entire Knight army for medium to close range engagements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Author Share Posted July 6, 2019 I can give some insight here regarding Twin-Avengers and Twin-Thermal Cannons, at least against other Knights. I frequently field my Chaos Knights against my son's and other friends' Knight armies... Avengers are nigh useless against Knights. Twin-Avengers are only slightly less useless but still not optimal in any way. Perhaps the bump to STR will help a bit. Twin-Thermals are nasty. One round of even mediocre shooting can strip a Knight down to half and they pair well with Armigers or Gallants (or Rampagers or whatever they're called now). I think it's the sleeper build since everyone is so obsessed with Avengers, and it's success has led to me kitting out my entire Knight army for medium to close range engagements. With buffs, the story is somewhat different. A twin thermal cannon Knight, using both 'Trail of destruction' and the new Infernal weapon buff, will do on average 11 wounds to an enemy Knight. Under the same conditions, the Twin Avenger Knight will do an average of 12. Why? The greater your number of shots, the more efficiently buffs work on you. Trail of destruction is far better on a 12 shot weapon, than a 1 shot weapon. The fact that the Avengers performance is so consistent also (no rolling for number of shots, or for damage), is what makes it so good. Not to mention in the very next turn, you can also murder all your opponents infantry - the Thermal cannon, while very good, only performs very well against one type of target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 The 'Abhorrent' class Knight it turns out, is the name of the new Chaos only model that the Rampager and Desecrator use with the extra leg joint. Odd that it gets it's own keyword as it's functionally pretty much identical, but there we go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 That the Avenger needs a buff to damage Knights or other Super Heavies makes it less reliable IMO. I'd use it all day against infantry and lighter tanks, but anything heavy I'd avoid it. And yeah, I still need to get used to the new names lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 That the Avenger needs a buff to damage Knights or other Super Heavies makes it less reliable IMO. I'd use it all day against infantry and lighter tanks, but anything heavy I'd avoid it. And yeah, I still need to get used to the new names lol I won't try and argue that the Thermal Cannon isn't the better choice against armour, it totally is. And it's a great weapon when you know in advance what you're fighting. My point I guess is that, when you buff BOTH a Twin Avenger Knight, and a Twin Thermal Knight, the Avenger actually does better against Knights outside of ranges where you can employ the melta rule, and is only TWO wounds behind twin thermals when the melta rule is in effect. Clearly though, the Avenger does better against all infantry targets at any range, and tends to be worth far more in over watch scenarios due to volume of fire and the flamers. That's what makes it so popular. Competitively, you can never know in advance what you're facing - you have to build viable TAC lists, and the Avenger is the no brainer choice in this area. It works well vs everything, and amazingly well vs a few things. Our other weapons don't do that, or can't with the same level of consistency. Hell, it even does do alright against armour when unbuffed. It's just that it naturally makes more use of our buffs (some of which are essentially free) than our other weapons, so more often than not you'll be activating them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Yeah, that works too. To be honest, we really have no bad weapons options. Even the humble RFBC can be daunting when taken in pairs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Avenger has definitely done work for my (had a game with the infernal household rules last week). I run my chaos knights with daemons and always take at least one (most of the time two) Nurgle Heralds, this gives me access to shrivelling pox (-1 to targets toughness 6 casting value). When you combo this with Daemonic power you are suddenly wounding T8 models on 4s with the avenger which is pretty brutal. That being said avengers are now 10pts more expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346945-how-to-commit-vile-tech-heresy-a-tourists-guide-to-xana-ii/page/5/#findComment-5343287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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