Sisters speculation topic

[Montford]

I hope they allow Celestians to take a chainsword and stormshield in the way they equip crusaders with power swords and stormshields.

[ERJAK]

I reckon maybe one or two more teasers at most, more than likely a data slate as gw seems to like to show a unit off.

 

Truth be told, im rather disappointed in the sisters community at large; the overwhelming negativity over the revealed strats has been surprising. I always figured that we were cut from a different cloth, but when we finally get something (that is both fluffy and good) theres a whole bunch of whining, like a bunch of space marine players, some comments ive seen (not here thankfully) have been downright toxic.

 

Now if gw had teased an Exorcist dataslate, claiming it to be awesome and it was in fact completely unchanged from current, then i could understand

Them being fluffy is nice, it being good is a stretch. I'm sorry, but the math isn't there for any of the strats. That said, I don't think anyone was actually mad about it. I think it was just mild disappointment, which is fair because we haven't seen anything particularly good yet. The stratagems are moderately useful but unexciting. You can't really blame people for being less than enthused at relatively small bonuses(both strats require significant investment in suboptimal weapon loadouts for what in all practical situations will end up being a few extra wounds once per game).

 

The conviction, on the other hand, is actually extremely strong...provided SoB are able to take advantage of it. I'm extremely excited for the multiple detachment possibilities because that is the single most powerful bonus to CQC that we've seen from any chapter tactic equivalent so far. If penitent engines, repentia, or celestians get good enough to be viable, this CT will make them extremely powerful. If we get Deathcults, Crusaders, or Arcos that can benefit from it, we might end up the best melee army in the game out of nowhere. Celestine becomes an ungodly monstrosity swinging 7 S8 attacks and 6 S4 attacks minimum all at AP-3.

 

Some of these units are already only 1 special rule from being great. Give penitent Engines AoF and SoF and suddenly they're terrifying. Give Repentia Scout and suddenly they're one of the best CQC units in the game, same with celestians if they get their old weapon options back. 

[ERJAK]

Look, I'm doing good with sisters now. Add in order traits, and I'll LGE doing even better. If we get Custodes level warlord takes/strategems/relics, sisters will be broken.

No. I'm sorry, but no. Sisters are extremely good for how limited their options are, but the second you get out of locals it becomes abundantly clear how much they're lacking compared to other armies. Custodes level stratagems/etc would bump us back up to where we were pre-rule of 3 and that's about it. 

 

 

Right now I'm thinking that the stratagem will be best on a 6 girl melta dom squad with a flamer, or on battle sisters with a heavy flamer and a melta gun.  With doms, I wouldn't do more than one squad with that load out.  I am thinking that it could be useful as part of the alpha strike, however I'm not sure if it would be more effective than just taking a 5 meltas in a squad.  It would probably be best used with the battle sister load out, since it can be used to make them hit a bit harder when pushing enemies off of objectives.

 

The best thing about having a beta codex is that we can let GW know if we think it is good or not.  If you end up not ever using the stratagem, maybe let GW know that there are too many conditions that need to be met to use it.  

 

Out math hammered. I will say though that use holy trinity to try and enhance a BSS or Celestian squad will not be anywhere near as beneficial as simply not running combination loadouts in the first place.  You're almost always better off running either full melta or full stormbolter, even with the holy trinity buff.

[dracpanzer]

To change up the conversation a bit, I've been thinking about what units need a change in terms of rules or stats. In my mind, right now that is:

Celestians: Give them the wargear options available to the Canoness Command Squad from 7ed IA list. Fully customizable unit at that point. Drop Bodyguard, let them prox Martyrdom if the unit is destroyed. I would love to grab a squad equipped with a few meltaguns and a bunch of condemnor boltguns to go Wych hunting....

 

Repentia: For me, take away the baby Eviscerator, make it a chainsword, let them prox Martyrdom when the unit is destroyed, make them 6 points and a troop choice with a larger unit size. Give them FnP.

 

Exorcist: I like the AP -4, but would like to see it get 2d6 shots priced accordingly for the AP.

 

Penitent Engines (assuming they're still going to be a Sisters unit): PenEngine is currently in the Ministorum list, make them useable in an otherwise Sisters only list. As-is, make them cheaper, or give them AoF and SoF with FnP like Repentia.

 

Palatine: We need an additional generic HQ...

[CaptainMarsh]

 

 

Look, I'm doing good with sisters now. Add in order traits, and I'll LGE doing even better. If we get Custodes level warlord takes/strategems/relics, sisters will be broken.

This isn't an either/or issue. The choice isn't "intensely humble strategems that rock zero boats ad naseum" and "super awesome all the time everywhere you look broken forever".

There is, and I'm hoping GW finds the line or at least errs on the side of caution. I've had a lot of people react negatively to my "shooting phase before the shooting phase", and, especially, Martyrdom, since they see Martyrdom as a punishment for killing my characters. I think we are already powerful, and GWs restraint here with fluffy strategems isn't a bad thing. Descent of Angels will help Seraphim, even if it doesn't make them amazing, and Holy Trinity will lead to interesting squad load outs.

 

I don't want a "Vengeance for Cadia" or "Rotate Ion Shields" or "Swooping Dive" that makes me or my opponents feel that I'm playing an autowin army.

 

Rotate Ion Shields is fine. It improves an invulnerable save but costs 1/3 cp depending on whether it is a normal or big knight. Doesn't effect melee and if you're facing an IK army and not just a single Knight as Soup, this provides ample opportunities to redirect further fire at other Knights. RIS is a problem because of Soup and usually having a single Knight in many of those lists. The Strategem and army it is for are not the problems.

 

Vengenace needs to be 3 CP. It is a very powerful Strategem regardless. After that? IMHO it isn't even in the top 5 of most powerful strategems. However, a pure AM player could likely not use a single CP in a game and get accused by their opponents of playing an 'autowin' army. It has happened to me as a matter of fact, because salty people are salty. 

 

Swooping- I've used it, really good strategem. 3 CP out of very few for a normal Custodes army, so it better be as good as it is. The strategem is not a problem. The fact the Custode player is swimming in Soup is.

 

Strategems, power of them, and CP aren't the problem- CP generation and access is, but that is outside of the realm of this topic.

 

Which is all to say that Sisters Strategems shouldn't be worried about feeling like autowin because the only reason people falsely believe such things is for endemic structural issues in the game outside of Strategem cost and effectiveness. We should have a mix of situational, Order specific, playstyle specific, good, and awesome strategems just like everyone else. Not to be special or unique, but to have the same sort of qualitative toolset that everyone else: Some good crunch, some good fluff, and fun. 

 

And anyone who complains about AoF and Martyrdom is, IMHO, pretty annoying. "Oh my army has a wide selection of units, unique rules, strategems, and general options and is perfectly fine, in no way cheesy or cheap! But T3 Power Armor models with an awesome but limited army-wide rule, a single awesome character, the Holy Trinity (which are significantly worse now than before), and a lack of options and has critical army wide range and survivability problems? WHY U SO CHEEP!" is not an attitude I tend to respect. If someone can honestly look at the state of current 40k and then at the Sisters and waggle fingers as if they're the ones who are the problem then I question whether they actually understand how and why stuff happens in a game of 40k.

 

 

---

 

Onto current topic, units I'd like to see stuff for:

 

Battle Sisters Squad- Increased squad size, a special rule or two based on size, more specials and special/heavies depending on squad size

 

Celestians- Wargear options and/or improved basic kit.

 

Generic HQ- Palatine or some such, so a Sisters Army isn't limited to 4 HQ choices total.

 

Exorcist- More shots and/or more damage, and/or change how their missile works.

 

I also would like to see, pipe dream, a Sororitas Grenade Launcher and Missile Launcher that fires incendiary grenades/missiles and melta grenades/missiles. Not gonna happen.

[Slasher956]

I can see a CC version of celestians, 2 junior HQs one with jump pack (OR the diagolus being moved to HQ to stop some of the elite congestion and a jump pack canoness being added so we have a none-character HQ with fly).

For the exorcist... I’d like something that ties into the AoFs, for the main weapon I think I higher number of shots but rolls of a natural 1 apply a minus to hit for the other due to represent the unreliable nature of the unit.

[Aqui]

It never made sense that a Hospitaller became Elite and not a HQ when her Marine equivalent is. I hope they give her her bolt pistol back as well. Just having Chirugeons tools to defend herself is not enough.

[Slasher956]

I think the Hospitaller could easily become 3 to 1 choice troops (become separate units once deployed), but give them a rule that means they dont get objective secured.

 

Dont give them back their bolt pistol but keep them about 30ish points

[Aqui]

That or give her the choice of having one or not. Not having Obsec for her doesn't bother me too much. Having just one single model trying to hold an objective is unwise at best, especially a battlefield medic who shouldn't be tied up holding a point :lol:

[Slasher956]

Its for 2 reasons, 1) fluff

2) stops cheese lists of having characters with Obsec hiding behind units healing them whilst holding the point

[Aqui]

Its for 2 reasons, 1) fluff

2) stops cheese lists of having characters with Obsec hiding behind units healing them whilst holding the point

No doubt :) I'm not a cheese player. I'm all about the fluffy lists ^_^

[A.T.]

For hospitallers I just wish their medi-packs were as good as the marines rather than the guard. If I wanted to be rolling 4+ to heal a unit it'd be sending an imagifier instead.

[Slasher956]

side point... with no rules changes I can see the canoness being ~100 points (so double the cost)

[Drider]

For t3 3+... Madness.

[Slasher956]

with a 4++ and the re-roll 1s in both shooting & combat......

[Beams]

with a 4++ and the re-roll 1s in both shooting & combat......

100 pts would make her 23 pts more expensive than a space marine captain, or 9 more than a Primaris Capt, while having significantly worse Str and Tough, and less access to wargear. There's no way she should cost more, when every anti infantry weapon wounds her on a 3+ or better, every medium weapon on a 2, and uncharged plasma on a 2.

[Slasher956]

~

 

 

100 pts would make her 23 pts more expensive than a space marine captain, or 9 more than a Primaris Capt, while having significantly worse Str and Tough, and less access to wargear. There's no way she should cost more, when every anti infantry weapon wounds her on a 3+ or better, every medium weapon on a 2, and uncharged plasma on a 2.

 

 

Sorry for confusion here..... I use the tilde symbol '~' as short hand for approximately ... I'm not saying she should or would  cost 100 points, i'm saying that if nothing changes I wouldnt be supprised if she costs around 100 points... ie 90ish (that is double her current 45)

[Ficinus]

Canonesses are powerful, but not so powerful that they need to jump to 2.22 times their current price. I could see a bump to 55 points, but hopefully they stay where they are.

 

Also, I would hate to see Repentia become a chaff hoard unit. It would radically alter the character of the army, since they'd almost certainly be the optimal choice (looking at Chaos Marines).

[bkde]

 

To change up the conversation a bit, I've been thinking about what units need a change in terms of rules or stats. In my mind, right now that is:

Celestians: Give them the wargear options available to the Canoness Command Squad from 7ed IA list. Fully customizable unit at that point. Drop Bodyguard, let them prox Martyrdom if the unit is destroyed. I would love to grab a squad equipped with a few meltaguns and a bunch of condemnor boltguns to go Wych hunting....

 

Repentia: For me, take away the baby Eviscerator, make it a chainsword, let them prox Martyrdom when the unit is destroyed, make them 6 points and a troop choice with a larger unit size. Give them FnP.

 

Exorcist: I like the AP -4, but would like to see it get 2d6 shots priced accordingly for the AP.

 

Penitent Engines (assuming they're still going to be a Sisters unit): PenEngine is currently in the Ministorum list, make them useable in an otherwise Sisters only list. As-is, make them cheaper, or give them AoF and SoF with FnP like Repentia.

 

Palatine: We need an additional generic HQ...

Celestians need a role as...something. Condemnor boltguns for psyker hunting or customizable weapon loadouts.

 

Repentia as troops is a really cool idea. And agreed on the FnP. But keep the evisorator.

 

Exorcists just need to be damage 2 or d3+1.

 

Penitent need to be able to advance+charge. Just make them faster. Assault flamers would be great, but speed is the main thing. Shield of faith would be great as well...

 

Agreed on the Palatine.

[Beams]

I think Celestines will have a good role in the Bloody Rose as an objective sweeper - 4 attack at Str 4 when near a priest, hitting on 3's, rerolling ones with a cannoness?

 

Pop out of a transport, flame throw or stormbolter the nearby unit and then charge to hopefully wipe them out and take the objective.

 

As for Repentia, I love the way they are now. Outside of bloody rose, though, they aren't great. They could do with ebing a hair cheaper and/or gaining FnP. I still think they should have a rule where if they are shot, they can move 3" towards the shooting unit.

 

Edit: but, I mean, they hit like a truck, and when used against ideal targets (dreads/termies) they are our best melee unit.

[tvih]

For Exorcist... I hate the random number of shots. Goes for just about all weapons in all codices, really. It's dumb. Yeah it's a dice game but the hit and wound rolls already give enough randomization. "OK so I'm gonna pull this trigger but I don't know how many shots it'll be!". Bleh. Exorcist as is would be mostly fixed by simply making it Heavy 6. Or 2D6 if you insist on randomization. Either one would put it roughly on par with the Manticore. Throw in some special rule or another if you want and done. In any case it's quite silly they haven't fixed it before this, and that they made it so bad in the Index to begin with.

[taikishi]

with a 4++ and the re-roll 1s in both shooting & combat......

Which is no different than a Space Marine Captain, who has better wargear options, higher strength, higher toughness, an always on army ability (ATSKNF, even if it isn't great) and Chapter Tactics.

 

No offense, but you're out of your mind if you think a Canoness should be anywhere close to 90 points when a SM Captain is cheaper than that.

[ValourousHeart]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I just noticed that everything for Sisters has been removed from Forge World except the Rhino Doors.

[A.T.]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I just noticed that everything for Sisters has been removed from Forge World except the Rhino Doors.

 

Happened some time ago.

[Aqui]

The Repressor and the rear Rhino hatch went some time ago :( I have one rear hatch door, but I wanted to get a lot more, so all of my Rhinos and Immolators matched. Also wanted the Repressor too.

 

I'm just glad I decided to buy a number of side door and front panel kits from Warhammer Fest earlier this year.