Sisters speculation topic

[Atrus]

The Exorcist does need addressing. Im avidly against it firing more shots though. It has always been firing d6 shots. Difference now is that back in the day, 1 shot could be effective. Now, 6 shots might not even scratch paint.

I still hold the biggest help Exorcist needs is a damage fix- at the very least going up to d6 damage. In my dream world, theyd be 2d6 take the highest damage (costed accordingly).

[dracpanzer]

Repressor has been gone for years if I'm not mistaken.

[ERJAK]

The Exorcist does need addressing. Im avidly against it firing more shots though. It has always been firing d6 shots. Difference now is that back in the day, 1 shot could be effective. Now, 6 shots might not even scratch paint.

I still hold the biggest help Exorcist needs is a damage fix- at the very least going up to d6 damage. In my dream world, theyd be 2d6 take the highest damage (costed accordingly).

I like D6 shots, but roll 2 take the highest if you didn't move and then taking it up to a flat 3 damage. That's a pretty low variance 5 damage to a Rhino which is about right for their point level. Then you'd have room in the army list for a heavier tank(200+pts) without stepping on the exorcist's toes.

[taikishi]

I'm not really sure what the fix on the Exorcist is if it were to return to it's roll as a main battle tank / tank and MC hunter. The best solution would be for us to be able to add sponsons to it but that takes away from the flavor, even if you're like me and prefer the MRLS turret over the pipe organ.

 

As far as # of shots and # of wounds is concerned, here's all the averages vs a T5-7 target

 

* As-is: 3.11 wounds inflicted per volley

* D6 shots, 2D3 damage take highest: 3.80

* 2D3 shots, D3 damage: 4.34

* D6 shots, 3 damage: 4.67

* 2D3 shots, 3 damage: 5.33

* Heavy 6, D3 wounds: 5.33

* D6 shots, D6 damage: 5.44

* D6 shots, 2d6 pick highest damage: 6.95

 

I honestly think d6 shots, d6 damage would be the minimum needed for a single-weapon tank to return to its roll from 6-7E. But I also have issue with it being able to dish out between 0-36 wounds per volley from a single weapon. Not only is that a high variance, but it's probably more damage than any non-Titanic weapon can deal. At least a quad-las predator is putting out that kind of firepower from four different weapons and all of them provide saves for 3+ vehicles (6+), bringing its damage down to 5.19 per volley.

 

Edit: since I just noticed the suggestion, for d6 shots, take highest, with d3 damage: 3.31, which is still fairly low.

[Beams]

I'm not really sure what the fix on the Exorcist is if it were to return to it's roll as a main battle tank / tank and MC hunter. The best solution would be for us to be able to add sponsons to it but that takes away from the flavor, even if you're like me and prefer the MRLS turret over the pipe organ.

 

As far as # of shots and # of wounds is concerned, here's all the averages vs a T5-7 target

 

* As-is: 3.11 wounds inflicted per volley

* D6 shots, 2D3 damage take highest: 3.80

* 2D3 shots, D3 damage: 4.34

* D6 shots, 3 damage: 4.67

* 2D3 shots, 3 damage: 5.33

* Heavy 6, D3 wounds: 5.33

* D6 shots, D6 damage: 5.44

* D6 shots, 2d6 pick highest damage: 6.95

 

I honestly think d6 shots, d6 damage would be the minimum needed for a single-weapon tank to return to its roll from 6-7E. But I also have issue with it being able to dish out between 0-36 wounds per volley from a single weapon. Not only is that a high variance, but it's probably more damage than any non-Titanic weapon can deal. At least a quad-las predator is putting out that kind of firepower from four different weapons and all of them provide saves for 3+ vehicles (6+), bringing its damage down to 5.19 per volley.

 

Edit: since I just noticed the suggestion, for d6 shots, take highest, with d3 damage: 3.31, which is still fairly low.

Right before the start of 8th, I did a simulation of different exorcist potential stats - d6 shots, d6 damage had an ok damage, but had a high chance of doing nothing - 1 in 2 chance to get <3 shots, each with a 1/3 or 1/2 (if moving) chance to miss, then usually a 1/3 or 1/2 chance to fail to wound, and than a 1 in 6 chance to only do 1 damage -- so the lows were a surprising amount of the time.

 

You end up doing zero damage slightly more than 27%, but only do more than 13 damage .03% of the time, and the "god roll" of 23 damage happened 4 times out of 10,000.

 

http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_13138/gallery_93197_13138_3640.png

 

So, I like d6 d6 for the feel of the old 7e exorcist - it's potentially terrible, potentially amazing. Just save a reroll fincase you roll a 1 on shots

 

 

edit: I feel I should add, that's pre grinding advance battlecannon leman Russ. Those numbers should be roughly.doubled.

[taikishi]

Like I said, I think d6/d6 is where the Exorcist should end up; it's just a feeling that the potential of 36 wounds in a single volley is too high. It probably isn't but "outside appearances", etc.

[Mekhitar]

I'm a supporter of the exorcist going the Dawn of War direction of an artillery vehicle, and Sisters getting some kind of predator-esque melta tank to take up its old tankhunter role.  But I realize that is unlikely.

[Atrus]

The potential of 36 wounds from a LRBT is there. The potential for 36 wounds from a necron doomsday ark, where 2+ saves dont even get a save, is there.

No reason why exorcist cant have it too.

 

1cp stratagem for exorcist to fire conflagration missiles. D6 shots that cause d3 hits (on successful hit) s4 ap0 D1 please? Just because :p

 

If we're talking dawn of war, lets have the immolation flamer spin around and immolate units in combat with it...only 40% joking there.

 

I think...gw needs to hurry up and show us more because this wait is killer.

[A.T.]

Like I said, I think d6/d6 is where the Exorcist should end up; it's just a feeling that the potential of 36 wounds in a single volley is too high. It probably isn't but "outside appearances", etc.

 

It would average 6 wounds to a T8 target, 8 wounds to a T7 target before factoring in rolls to hit and saves.

 

A predator averages 9 wounds to both. Really if the exorcist fired d6 shots at fixed damage 4 or 2d6 at fixed damage 2 it would still be statistically behind against the bigger targets, and the predator is a fairly unremarkable vehicle these days. Just a consequence of apocalypse 40k.

[Ficinus]

In looking to fix the Exorcist, we shouldn't talk about the "average" results for different potential fire modes. The average isn't useful when looking at something with such a low rate of fire with so much randomness baked in. Saying that the Exorcist averages 3.5 shots is useful for averaging its performance over a dozen or more games but not in thinking about how it might perform in any given game. Looking at data the way Beams has presented it, the odds of seeing any one outcome on a single shot is far more informative and highlights how totally unreliable the Exorcist is. The probability distribution is how we should think if he want to provide real feedback.

[Slasher956]

It comes down to what is the exorcists role?  is it an artillery piece (eg a basilisk ), a battle tank (lerman russ or a pred) or is it an Icon that has a shooting attack?

 

DoW it was more artillery piece

previous editions its was a 'light' battle tank

fluff wise is its an icon with a shooting attack

[Beams]

This edition, I feel, it's supposed to be a leman Russ equivalent -- it's Missile Launcher was roughly equivalent with the Leman Russ prior to the Grinding Advance buff, when factoring in sponsors which the above post wasn't.

[Lord Grimskull]

A main battle tank in addition to the exorcist would be nice

[Slasher956]

This edition, I feel, it's supposed to be a leman Russ equivalent -- it's Missile Launcher was roughly equivalent with the Leman Russ prior to the Grinding Advance buff, when factoring in sponsors which the above post wasn't.

 

Dont feel that the Exorcist can fill the role of a MBT with its max one weapon system... all the other MBTs have the option for 2 -3 more (which is why I put 'light' there)...

 

I think they should concentrate on it being an Icon of faith with a weapon as the secondary reason for taking it.

[Beams]

 

This edition, I feel, it's supposed to be a leman Russ equivalent -- it's Missile Launcher was roughly equivalent with the Leman Russ prior to the Grinding Advance buff, when factoring in sponsors which the above post wasn't.

 

 

Dont feel that the Exorcist can fill the role of a MBT with its max one weapon system... all the other MBTs have the option for 2 -3 more (which is why I put 'light' there)...

 

I think they should concentrate on it being an Icon of faith with a weapon as the secondary reason for taking it.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing. I think GW wabted it to be a main battle tank in the index, but didn't realize how bad most main battle tanks were at the beginning of this edition. It's why every single one got grinding advance or a variant of that.

[Purifying Tempest]

I'll hit the highlights of what I am anticipating (not expecting).

 

HQ: +1 generic HQ.  +1-2 named characters.  I expect Veridyan to get a data slate.  I also expect there will be something of a "Jump" nature, be it a Seraphim-style HQ or an option for the Canoness.  I would love to see a generic Living Saint, to unhitch every other Order from Celestine, but still give them something tied deeply to their lore that is pretty cool to build a force around.

 

Elites: They need to fix the giant 'oops' that was Celestians in the Index.  The unit they developed was just an utter train wreck.  We'll see them probably get closer to what they were in 7th Edition.  Repentia will probably get a bit cheaper, probably to accommodate getting them into a Rhino for their own safety.

 

Troops: Battle sister blob squads making a comeback?

 

Fast Attack: Don't think there will be many, if any, changes here.  I would say this is the best slot the sisters can field, and the slot that makes them able to punch above their weight.  Any love in this slot will likely be felt by changes to meltaguns, flamers, hand flamers, and inferno pistols, but I would actually be cautious of that.  Melta-Dominions are already pretty destructive, and Inferno Pistol Seraphim are, too.  I know many people hate on Melta-weapons currently, but the closing power of Dominions and Seraphim brings some justice to that price.

 

Heavy: I hate to say it, but I think Rets are going to be about as-is.  There may be some love for Heavy Flamers and Multi-melta, which makes niche holes for some specialized Retributor units, but I think Heavy Bolter Retributors are right there with Seraphim and Dominions as punching where they should for their slot.  Exorcists are tricky beast.  I would like to see them go back up to that 160 point level of being a heavy battle tank.  They are Toughness 8, they always loom over the battlefield, proving that nothing is out of the reach of the Inquisition.  To offset that, give them the "Grinding Advance" style rule other heavy tanks are getting.  2d6 shots will average it out nicely.  People may still not like the 30 point price hike with no options like sponsons that other battle tanks have, so give it 3 flat damage.  Now you have the bastardized cousin of Dark Reapers + Leman Russ tanks.  That should make it something that can anchor your deployment zone, with Retributors able to fan out around to protect.

 

Edit: Forgot Penitent Engines... zzz.  That's their problem... forgotten.  A slight price drop will probably get them usable.  Use the double-fist Helbrute with Heavy Flamers as a template.  The Penitent Engine is like -1 on all of its stats from the Hellbrute, price accordingly.  The closing power of the rest of the army should make up for why that Helbrute is terrible in CSM lists, though I would revisit the movement speed.  7 is pretty low for a lumbering, angry, bloodthirsty monstrosity racing across the battlefield to reduce the unfaithful to ruin.  7 seems very casual :)  Also, do not give this thing Acts of Faith.  Do not even give it an order trait.  Give it a few interesting rules (oh, hi Zealot) and a stratagem to punish the wicked with.  Do not allow it to break Sororitas detachments, too.  Remember, they are sinners!

 

LoW: I am anticipating and expecting nothing.  I do have some wishful thinking, though.  Fix the HQ slot, put Celestine here.  Living Saints are not leaders of the Sororitas, they are not standard fixtures, even.  For fluff sake, put Living Saints in this slot.  Maybe a generic and our named one, as I outlined above, or even get "weird" and give us incarnations of the heroes of the Orders (one per), made manifest by the will of the Emperor.  They can be the Phoenix Lords of the Sororitas.  Can I put this on my Christmas list?  I want the butt kicking fury of Saint Mina brought to life for my army (though, the way I play Celestine, you'd swear it was Mina).

[Tirak]

On people being concerned about a one weapon battletank: most Guard Players (and I am one) will kit their Russes out stock, just the Battlecannon and a Heavy Bolter, and if I could drop the Heavy Bolter I would. At around the 150 mark with Russ suitability, you want to bring numbers of them, so if the Exorcist goes into that role, then having only a single main gun is not a detriment at all as right now, except for fairly niche circumstances, sponsons are wastes of points.

[ERJAK]

I'm not really sure what the fix on the Exorcist is if it were to return to it's roll as a main battle tank / tank and MC hunter. The best solution would be for us to be able to add sponsons to it but that takes away from the flavor, even if you're like me and prefer the MRLS turret over the pipe organ.

 

As far as # of shots and # of wounds is concerned, here's all the averages vs a T5-7 target

 

* As-is: 3.11 wounds inflicted per volley

* D6 shots, 2D3 damage take highest: 3.80

* 2D3 shots, D3 damage: 4.34

* D6 shots, 3 damage: 4.67

* 2D3 shots, 3 damage: 5.33

* Heavy 6, D3 wounds: 5.33

* D6 shots, D6 damage: 5.44

* D6 shots, 2d6 pick highest damage: 6.95

 

I honestly think d6 shots, d6 damage would be the minimum needed for a single-weapon tank to return to its roll from 6-7E. But I also have issue with it being able to dish out between 0-36 wounds per volley from a single weapon. Not only is that a high variance, but it's probably more damage than any non-Titanic weapon can deal. At least a quad-las predator is putting out that kind of firepower from four different weapons and all of them provide saves for 3+ vehicles (6+), bringing its damage down to 5.19 per volley.

 

Edit: since I just noticed the suggestion, for d6 shots, take highest, with d3 damage: 3.31, which is still fairly low.

It was actually 2D6 take the highest and FLAT 3 damage and that's also intended to keep it right around 100-125pts as a light artilery piece.

 

If you actually wanted it to be a more expensive tank destroyer D6 shot FLAT 6 damage, which is 9.333. Remember, not every weapon needs dsomething damage on it. You could even make it 2d6 take the highest if it sits still if you need ed more damage.

[ERJAK]

I'll hit the highlights of what I am anticipating (not expecting).

 

HQ: +1 generic HQ.  +1-2 named characters.  I expect Veridyan to get a data slate.  I also expect there will be something of a "Jump" nature, be it a Seraphim-style HQ or an option for the Canoness.  I would love to see a generic Living Saint, to unhitch every other Order from Celestine, but still give them something tied deeply to their lore that is pretty cool to build a force around.

 

Elites: They need to fix the giant 'oops' that was Celestians in the Index.  The unit they developed was just an utter train wreck.  We'll see them probably get closer to what they were in 7th Edition.  Repentia will probably get a bit cheaper, probably to accommodate getting them into a Rhino for their own safety.

 

Troops: Battle sister blob squads making a comeback?

 

Fast Attack: Don't think there will be many, if any, changes here.  I would say this is the best slot the sisters can field, and the slot that makes them able to punch above their weight.  Any love in this slot will likely be felt by changes to meltaguns, flamers, hand flamers, and inferno pistols, but I would actually be cautious of that.  Melta-Dominions are already pretty destructive, and Inferno Pistol Seraphim are, too.  I know many people hate on Melta-weapons currently, but the closing power of Dominions and Seraphim brings some justice to that price.

 

Heavy: I hate to say it, but I think Rets are going to be about as-is.  There may be some love for Heavy Flamers and Multi-melta, which makes niche holes for some specialized Retributor units, but I think Heavy Bolter Retributors are right there with Seraphim and Dominions as punching where they should for their slot.  Exorcists are tricky beast.  I would like to see them go back up to that 160 point level of being a heavy battle tank.  They are Toughness 8, they always loom over the battlefield, proving that nothing is out of the reach of the Inquisition.  To offset that, give them the "Grinding Advance" style rule other heavy tanks are getting.  2d6 shots will average it out nicely.  People may still not like the 30 point price hike with no options like sponsons that other battle tanks have, so give it 3 flat damage.  Now you have the bastardized cousin of Dark Reapers + Leman Russ tanks.  That should make it something that can anchor your deployment zone, with Retributors able to fan out around to protect.

 

Edit: Forgot Penitent Engines... zzz.  That's their problem... forgotten.  A slight price drop will probably get them usable.  Use the double-fist Helbrute with Heavy Flamers as a template.  The Penitent Engine is like -1 on all of its stats from the Hellbrute, price accordingly.  The closing power of the rest of the army should make up for why that Helbrute is terrible in CSM lists, though I would revisit the movement speed.  7 is pretty low for a lumbering, angry, bloodthirsty monstrosity racing across the battlefield to reduce the unfaithful to ruin.  7 seems very casual   Also, do not give this thing Acts of Faith.  Do not even give it an order trait.  Give it a few interesting rules (oh, hi Zealot) and a stratagem to punish the wicked with.  Do not allow it to break Sororitas detachments, too.  Remember, they are sinners!

 

LoW: I am anticipating and expecting nothing.  I do have some wishful thinking, though.  Fix the HQ slot, put Celestine here.  Living Saints are not leaders of the Sororitas, they are not standard fixtures, even.  For fluff sake, put Living Saints in this slot.  Maybe a generic and our named one, as I outlined above, or even get "weird" and give us incarnations of the heroes of the Orders (one per), made manifest by the will of the Emperor.  They can be the Phoenix Lords of the Sororitas.  Can I put this on my Christmas list?  I want the butt kicking fury of Saint Mina brought to life for my army (though, the way I play Celestine, you'd swear it was Mina).

No. Putting Celestine as a LoW kills her outright. SoB can't afford to use an entire deachment slot on Celestine. Putting her into the LoW slot is roughly equivalent to a 100-150pt price increase.

 

Do not ruin one of the best units in the book over stupid fluff crap.

[Slasher956]

I'll hit the highlights of what I am anticipating (not expecting).

 

<snip>.

 

I'm expecting Novitiates as a troops choice as well... not sure how they will be different from Battlesisters but need a second sisters troop choice! 

[Purifying Tempest]

 

No. Putting Celestine as a LoW kills her outright. SoB can't afford to use an entire deachment slot on Celestine. Putting her into the LoW slot is roughly equivalent to a 100-150pt price increase.

 

Do not ruin one of the best units in the book over stupid fluff crap.

 

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment?  Detachments are resources, sure, but there are also Vanguard Detachments, as well, provided we get elites worth taking.  And they don't need to cost 400 points just to go into LoW slot, Armigers are proof of that.  With things written as-is, no, they need her as a HQ because that one model is 50% of our selections for HQs.  There would need to be some serious adjusting, and if they want to give lip-service to the lore... then Living Saints don't lead Sororitas forces on a tactical level, but certainly on a spiritual level.

[Drider]

Make the exorcist; Heavy 6.

[Mekhitar]

I have a hope that flamers will get a CA across-the-board points drop (even, say, 2pts) that will make them a worthier choice - and things like penitent engines will benefit from the weapon option drop as well.

[Beams]

Make the exorcist; Heavy 6.

I hope not, I love the lore that the exorcist is a super finnicky and unreliable unit. I mean, the firing mechanism is a piano where the Gunner is playing hymns. If anyone is supposed to have a wild amount of shots, it's them!

[FallenSoldiers]

I have a hope that flamers will get a CA across-the-board points drop (even, say, 2pts) that will make them a worthier choice - and things like penitent engines will benefit from the weapon option drop as well.

I’d rather see them just be changed to “can always overwatch”. Give it the old “wall of death” style rules. Right now I just can’t see using them when most charges are from 8.01” away .