Black Templars as Space Wolves, A transformation, and Why?

[JadedMask]

Why I’m Switching from Codex: Space Marines to Index: Imperium 1, Space Wolves
 
I’m going to separate this into two parts, one is why I’m leaving the Templars rules behind, and two is why I’m taking on the wolves as their replacement.
 
Section 1: Saying Goodbye

• Templars aren’t Templars anymore

It’s sad to say, but the Templars we have now in Codex: Space Marines, aren’t Black Templars, in fact they aren’t much of anything, they’re a shallow shell of the chapter they once were, relegated to 3 special characters and a unique troop unit, this army used to have a number of hugely unique things that set it apart. Crusader Seals, Vows, and Unique Units and Unit mechanics are all gone, and all it leaves is a Space Marine chapter that likes to assault and doesn’t have psykers, and that’s about it.
 
Crusader Seals, Attached to almost every unit, this was the mainstay of the army, and the conversion packs had their own seals to represent these now non-existent pieces of wargear. This helped the unit with righteous zeal, which allowed them to consolidate towards enemies after they suffered casualties, a rule that is altogether gone, and replaced with reroll charges, a mostly harmless change on the face of things, but the destruction of unique wargear continues all throughout their squatting, holy orb? gone, Adamantine cloak? gone. It’s no surprise, you’re taking an entirely unique army and making them one of 10 options in a book, they will be a joke as far as comparisons to the old rules go.

Vows, the most unique mechanic to the army, a prayer said before the battle, giving your army tons of versatility by assigning a different army wide ability based on what you wanted your army to do, of course, gone, squatted with everything else. This is the most egregious, because it is basically what made the army work, the rerolls in combat, or the +1 strength is what defined your army, it gave you power over other armies by having essentially, a chapter tactic, before chapter tactics existed. Now, they’re completely gone without mention.
 
Unique Units, this is the most obvious but the most damning, Templars don’t use devastators, oh just kidding, they do now because they’re just normal space marines. They don’t use librarians, well that sucks because we aren’t replacing it with anything noteworthy, and you certainly aren’t getting any defense against psykers! (Other than a Literal Coin flip Stratagem, which won’t help at all against 4+ smites) In fact! as if to specifically slap them in the face, the Ultramarines gained an Iron Halo that allows them to Deny Psychic powers! ya you know, the Ultramarines, the guys who are so anti-psyker that they have  one of the most powerful psykers in the game in their army list? Yeah those psyker haters. It’s just a joke, stuffed in the back of the codex, with everything that made them unique (and viable) gone. No more tactics for Sword Brethren, their just as generic as other veterans. No more Reclusiarchs, just generic piss poor chappies like everyone else has. Vindicators and LR Crusaders? well everyone else has those now so I GUESS you can still use em. The entries for Templars read like begrudging allowances, they barely exist in the codex, and are beaten out by any other chapter in what they do. Their troops die in droves, as their tactics no longer work, the unique mechanisms like vows and crusader seals that made the army function are gone, and now the army is no better than an Ultramarine wannabe, like any other army in that codex.

 

               2. Not an Assault Army

 

Warhammer isn’t an assault game, shooting is and always has been the dominant strategy, that being said, it doesn’t mean assault doesn’t work, in 8th it works better than it has since 5th. It just means assault armies have to work harder for victories than shooting armies. Not by a HUGE margin, but by enough of a margin that it’s noticeable. I mean, compare how many Death Guard sit and shoot lists there are, to say, the amount of Khorne Daemons running around with Bloodletters there are…yeah. That isn’t just cause the Death Guard are the new hotness. If people picked up and played DG, and constantly lost, they would probably stop. But what’s happening is, Death Guard, sit and shoot, is Extremely Potent, and somewhat easy to achieve, which lends to its popularity. 
But outside of the circumstances of the game, the Space Marines themselves, or at least Codex: Space Marines is NOT an assault army. It just flat out is not, and never will be. The way Codex: Space Marines is designed, is with the intention of an Ultramarines Player. You can see this in the new Primaris Units. Units that are extremely focused on ranged, and are durable enough to get stuck in, then leave combat and shoot, an achievement that only the Ultramarines can do. Space Marines don’t hit hard enough in combat, their footslogging units aren’t durable enough to reach combat, and if they do, they’re lackluster 1 attack doesn’t do much to impress. There is no reason to try and run assault heavy, as the troops don’t do it well, Assault marines are a joke, assault terminators range from Horrendous to Very Situational at best. Vanguard Veterans work great when they charge from a vehicle (Making the reroll charges chapter tactic useless, mind you) but then die immediately after they kill a unit. In fact, the HQs and Dreadnoughts do most of the heavy lifting as far as assault goes, but as both are limited to 4 attacks, even they don’t bring enough to even remotely be considered an assault focused army, but that’s just the thing, they aren’t they never were, and that’s the issue, Why the hell did Black Templars, an assault focused army, get stuffed in a codex about shooting. They would’ve been far more welcome as an addition to any other codex, as we’ll discuss.

 

                 3. Generic, and Boring

 

It goes without saying, that Templars have lost a great deal of that unique flair that many found them interesting for. The fun and interesting deviations from traditional marines they brought are gone, and have been replaced with pale imitations or revoked without replacement altogether. Outside of the fact that fielding a 20 man unit of crusaders for 250 points to see them get wiped out without even a glance is incredibly disheartening, and shows that this codex simply wasn’t made for the jammed in Templar flair that it does have, it also shows the problem with Space Marines as a whole, and why Templars like myself, DIDN’T play ultramarines in the first place. Here’s where the Godhand’s advocate comes in. Femto drops down to tell me, oh but but Jaded, why don’t you use Intercessors, they’re super good, and Tactical marines suck this edition. Just use hell blasters, just use the Inceptors…etc…etc… All under the banner of “You’ll win more games” Well here’s a thought. Have you ever imagined that I don’t just want to “Win Games”? perhaps there is a unique style of combat I enjoy engaging in. A cool unit I like to field a number of. Or even an overarching army theme I don’t wanna just fly in the face of for more wins? Put aside my hatred of Primaris for a second, what do I gain by fielding intercessors and hell blasters? Reliable Shooting units that can delete both infantry and tanks respectively. What about that screams templars? one or two of them? perhaps, but that won’t be enough, and why stop there? they are hands down the best units in the book, why not just spam them? no reason not to right? but guess what. Black Templars players didn’t play Black Templars to sit in the midfield and shoot, if they wanted to do that, they would’ve played Ultramarines. But they didn’t, and because of that, this playstyle, the only play style worth a damn in Codex: Space Marines, for me personally, is BEYOND BORING. It puts me to sleep, the thought of even engaging in it makes my skin crawl, as if I would walk through a portal, and a much fatter, zit covered me would be playing that army, as he brags about being a virgin and how it makes him a “Better Gamer”. I can’t stand that playstyle and it IS NOT Templars. The Templar codex was absolutely 100% about assault, getting in and ripping face no doubt, it’s so clear in their rules. “Yeah but any functioning army will have ranged units, fielding ranged Templars doesn’t mean it isn’t templars” Femto adds, ok, but it’s certainly not codex templars, realistically you could reason ANY tactic as being a subsection of the larger army that focuses on that A-typical thing for the army, like an infantry regiment in Iron Hands, or a Heavy Weapons Brigade in the White Scars. Sure They DO it. But that doesn’t mean that’s what I signed up for when I picked up that 4th edition Templar Codex. I find shooting boring, and templars do to, if they didn’t, they wouldn’t have played them from the codex, they would’ve played Ultramarines, and that’s a fact. End of Story.
 
 
Section 2: Why I am Playing them as Space Wolves
 
1. Templars are Templars again
           Perhaps a bit presumptuous to say, but the rules for Space Wolves, with regards to 8th edition, far better represent a zeal driven assault focused army, than the rules in Codex: Space Marines, hands down. not only do they represent them better thematically, gaining bonus attacks on the charge, one handing bolters, Sword Brethren having a unique place in the army (not the same unique place mind you, as they’re more tactically diverse with weapon options than they are with special rules) but the same theme of the members of the army Choosing who they fight with and creating family like bonds with their allies, instead of the regiments of Codex Chapters. All of this reinforces the feel of playing templars. honestly, my first game when I played the Wolves, it just felt right, it felt as if I was playing the 4th edition codex again, I was getting in assault and killing units, I was dealing damage when I reached combat, I was footslogging big swathes of crusaders, it was exactly what I had been missing. The Space wolf play style, specifically Blood Claws, Wulfen, and Powerful HQs, as the army base, feels VERY templars, mores than templars have felt in 3 editions of the game.
 
2. An assault Army
            The space wolves are an assault army, every model, even the shooting ones can take chainswords, their assault focused models get additional attacks. many of their unique units provide Powerful assault focused buffs to the army, anywhere from reroll charges, to plus 1 attack, the army’s direction and synergies scream “assault force” For anyone who has been looking for an assault Space marine army, that doesn’t like jetpacks, Wolves are the answer without a doubt.
 
3. Interesting and Exciting
             The tactics you employ as a Space Wolf player not only feel incredibly thematic to Templars but are also varied and interesting in their own right. Positioning HQs for buffs actually matters because your units actually have attacks and hit hard. Wulfen provide unique buffs that stack allowing for powerful assault combos. The gameplay of Space Wolves is all the best parts of 4th-5th edition Templar Tactics and I couldn’t be happier.
 
FAQ
“Codex to Index? you’re pretty dumb for giving up all of those special rules”
A: The rules in Codex: Space Marines may be more plentiful, especially without Chapter Tactics or Stratagems, but those tactics are not Templars, and are extremely un-fun. The Index may have less rules so far, but each of those rules is 10x as thematic as the current rules for templars. I would say the idiot is the one that plays the game based on how the company dictates them to, rather than doing it in a way that allows them to have fun.
“Templars have rules, why switch them to a different army?”
A: Templar rules are weak and barely there, what is there is mostly generic marines shooting focused stuff. It’s not templars by any means. This may be what GW says is templars but I disagree wholeheartedly, and reject the notion that Templars can’t play like space wolves, any more than a Custom Chapter can’t play like a pre-written chapter.
“You might just be bad, or lost in the tactics of the past, you’d probably do better if you took primaris”
A: I know this is a straw-man argument to an extent, but I’ll just put this here to let anyone know if they say this I have no intentions of associating with them in the future.
“If you are willing to use Templars as Space Wolves, why not just use them as Ultras and win more games?”
A: I’ll refer you to Chapter 3 of Section 1
“What makes assault so great anyways? You could just play them shooty couldn’t you”
A: Why do you prefer white bread over wheat? Automatic over Stick Shift? It’s silly to me to ask why someone would get passionate about a preference of theirs, name a situation in which you would be willing to change how you fundamentally did something you were passionate about without qualms, no? yeah, that’s what I thought.

[redmapa]

Good for you brother, I dont think you'll find much disagreement to your points and I would even advise cleaning it up a bit and sending it to GW, let them know how you feel about the army. More disgruntled players should make their voices heard.

 

Personally Im never changing to another army to represent Black Templars, it just feels dirty and cheap to me, I've stuck to them through thin and thinner and changing seems like a wasted time or struggle.

[JadedMask]

Good for you brother, I dont think you'll find much disagreement to your points and I would even advise cleaning it up a bit and sending it to GW, let them know how you feel about the army. More disgruntled players should make their voices heard.

 

Personally Im never changing to another army to represent Black Templars, it just feels dirty and cheap to me, I've stuck to them through thin and thinner and changing seems like a wasted time or struggle.

Yeah I noticed the color thing, hopefully I fixed it, if it still egregious I can run back and fix it again. I respect that, and for a while i was like you, but over the past years I've had so little fun, and been so frustrated with the way the army plays, I reached out to try something new and found myself enjoying it. I will never discard Templar Fluff, Models, or Paint Jobs, but their rules? perhaps it's because I am a DM in many roleplaying games but I'll just use what I see fit as thematic. But again, the utmost respect brother.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What are you playing as what? I.e. what BT models are you playing as Wulfen?

[JadedMask]

What are you playing as what? I.e. what BT models are you playing as Wulfen?

I personally will use the K'daii fire born, my Crusade (The Avernus Crusade) has a theme of fire and waking the dead, so these hulking flame spirits of dead templars made sense for my army. It's a little mary sueish and perhaps doesn't perfectly convey the wulfen on the tabletop but I enjoy the idea. A more straightforward way I think is using the Age of Sigmar Skullreapers, and shaving off the chaos bits, adding some templar armor scraps and weapons, making them Templars that were so pissed they just burst out of their armor. 

[Schlitzaf]

I’m going to start off with that;

Every Chapter lost Reclusiarchs

SB were always just renamed regular veterans

Crusader Seals? Who took them

BT as a Melee Army that is more complicated answer but let us handle the UU question

 

Unique Units:

In terms of actual truly unique non SC Templar Units there have been 6:

Crusader Squads

Crusader Biker Squad

Neophyte Banner Bearer

Sword Brothern

Durandal Dreadnought

Emperor’s Champion

Cenobyte Servitors

 

Sword Brothern are just Company Veterans even in their old rules

Durandal Dreadnoughts representative by Ironclads

Cenos And Champion both now exist simply as unique units

NeoBanner is lost but who took it?

Leaving us exactly one unit not represented in rules mechanically (but easy to recreate). The Biker Crusader Squad.

Now then notice something what remains? Crusader Squads.

 

The Crusader Squad defines Black Templars, not melee, not our vows, not any other rules, not holdovers from being a 4th Ed Codex, the Crusader Squads define our army. It’s the demonstration of how we abandoned/refused the Codex. We are not bound by enforced rules and regulations. And the Crusader Squad is the best tactical equivalent in the game.

 

Second the Emperor’s Champion is the best or one of the best Auxillary or Specialist HQ’s in the game.

 

First, Primaris units serve valuable niche. Reivars cheap deep strike, Intercessor cheap fire support and counter assault for our Crusaders and so on and so forth. If you abandoned the chapter, for puppies because you want melee and because you forsake Primaris you forget the key aspect.

 

We are His Sword. His Angels of Death. We are His Tools to Wield. Sigismund forsake the Codex because he believed that it’s regimentation would make us weaker. You adhering to dogmatic principles refusing to bend is very Dornjan of you, but not very Sigismund of you, whose colors we bear. While Truth v Worship is one of the divides of NeoTemplars and OldTemplars it is something that it’s change over time, with Sigsmund in Horus Heresy showcases our own chapter.

 

Sigsmund at first was proponent of Imperial Truth but slowly shifted to believe Emperor was a God. To reject Primaris in one sense is to reject our founder, whom believed in flexibility above all. Even as he rejected the Astartes, he proved himself in a sense more Gulliman than Gulliman or Dorn. Why?

 

He refused the order of Gulliman, with the stubbornness of Dorn, but embraced the flexibility that Gulliman wanted. It’s an innate contradiction, that highlight why our chapters is our chapter. At our core we are about flexibility, where ultras are enforced flexibility, we embrace flexibility. Where Dorn or Fists fights to the end because they refused to accept defeat, we fight to the end because we believe in victory.

 

So yes, if you abandon this chapter because you want melee, rejection of Primaris, or some notions puppies serve you better. You have abandoned the core principles of this chapter. And what makes our chapter Black Templar

[Honda]

1. Best of luck to you in your new endeavor.

 

2. Why didn't you announce to the Space Wolves that you are a new member of "their" forum and that you're going to play "black" wolves with crosses?

 

3. People leave specific forums on a regular basis for many reasons. To be perfectly frank, we're more interested in those that stay and  contribute, as they far outnumber those who have given up their vows.

 

4. Some of those who have left, returned because they discovered that a Templar is more than a set of rules.We are the largest, most active, most ZEALous forum in the entire 76,000+ large community of BnC. That being said, this forum isn't for everyone and we wish no one ill who decides to find their glory elsewhere.

 

5. The Black Templar culture and history extends beyond one "rules" or "fluff" data point in our timeline. We Templars have decided to not only endure, but excel given our circumstances. Circumstances change over time.

 

6. The Wolves are a great forum with lots of awesome members and a very rich forum culture.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

I like this idea just because Ive always wanted to make a counts-as thundwolf cavalry with gryph-chargers from AoS and put some knights on top instead of Vikings. I also get what you're saying about the rag-tag nature of SW fitting the vibe of BT and I agree and like that idea.

 

I can't speak to what we've lost since our codex because I am a total newb. I own the codex:BT and the current C:SM but I haven't played any games yet at all. But from the perspective of a newbie, I feel like we get a lot of love in the codex. Outside of the Ultramarines, we have the most pages of fluff, the most special characters, and we even have our own troops choice which is the best one in the codex. Again, I can't compare it to what we used to have because I don't know. I will admit that I'm sorta sad we don't have vows. That seems cool. I'll also admit that since I'm new, I'm not really opposed to running Black Wolves either. I think it's an interesting idea. Like I said, thunder-gryphon cavalry would look awesome, and if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a unit that can take power armor and TDA? That feels like a fluffy templar thing to do.

[Dark_Jober]

I totally agree that many SW profiles or rules fit better than C:SM ones. I think SW and BT are really similar in that unique flavour by refusing the Codex Astartes.

For example, Blood Claws are a fantastic example about how improve our melee focused Crusader Squads... but replacing the Wolf Guard with a Sword Brother.

 

I still think we could receive some love if Armageddon is revisited in the new fluff and the Deathwatch codex gives us some chances about mixed squads. Of course, SW codex in August (rumour), could give us more ideas.

[JadedMask]

I am not at all talking about Black Templars in story and thematic sense, I am specifically talking about the rules that they used in Codex: Black Templars. Also, to say that Vows don't define templars is pretty hilarious, it was literally the defining trait of the old codex. Again, if you're talking about the narrative, than no disagreement there, but I'm talking about having fun with the army I signed up for 3-4 editions ago, that has fundamentally changed over time.

 

Also Schlitz, as I look over your Crusade, as someone who is willing to have rampant mutation and Twin Marshals as a narrative element, something that clearly flies in the face of Templar tradition. a "Non-Traditional" crusade using feral tactics seems like far less of a stretch, let he who hath lived without sin, cast the first stone.

 

 

1. Best of luck to you in your new endeavor.

 

2. Why didn't you announce to the Space Wolves that you are a new member of "their" forum and that you're going to play "black" wolves with crosses?

 

3. People leave specific forums on a regular basis for many reasons. To be perfectly frank, we're more interested in those that stay and  contribute, as they far outnumber those who have given up their vows.

 

4. Some of those who have left, returned because they discovered that a Templar is more than a set of rules.We are the largest, most active, most ZEALous forum in the entire 76,000+ large community of BnC. That being said, this forum isn't for everyone and we wish no one ill who decides to find their glory elsewhere.

 

5. The Black Templar culture and history extends beyond one "rules" or "fluff" data point in our timeline. We Templars have decided to not only endure, but excel given our circumstances. Circumstances change over time.

 

6. The Wolves are a great forum with lots of awesome members and a very rich forum culture.

I think you're missing the point, I'll start by adressing each point.

 

2. Because using space wolves rules to represent a Black Templar army does not mean I'm playing space wolves. I don't enjoy Space Wolves, Thematics, Narrative, overarching style or color schemes. Also deriding it as "Wolves with Black Crosses" is a not very impressive attempt to distance me from other Black Templars players just because I don't enjoy the boring as hell space marine codex.

 

3. Since I'm not a Space Wolf player beyond the book I bring to my warhammer games, and am far more interested in the goings on of templars narratively and community wise, it would be silly not to stay here, and to infer that I won't. Also to take this as a "leaving" announcement seems silly, I'm completely new here, It would be as if you entered someone's home, greeted no one and then announced to everyone that you were now leaving. Bizarre for you to infer as such.

4. Again, to just instantly assume I am leaving Templars altogether because I don't like their rules in 8th edition warhammer seems presumptuous at best and shortsighted at worst.

 

5. Exactly, this was the point. Black Templar esque armies can be found everywhere, and that I found the way they play in space marines to be drudgery. I merely shared this to tell of my experience, hoping that others squeamish about changing due to other templar players backlash, shouldn't fear to do so, as I've had a lot more fun with games now that I've played the chapter my own way. From the manner in which these two responses I've highlighted are composed, it seems these are the exact players that would make people uneasy about using alternative rules for their army in the name of having fun, and furthermore, would ostracize them from the Templar community, just because they don't bring a book to 40k night with the same picture on the front of it (A picture of an Ultramarine, might I emphasize, just to add to the absurdity of holding Codex: Space Marines as the golden standard, because "GW Says So".

 

6. I have no doubt they are, I wonder if they would be as angry at a Space Wolf player playing Blood Angels because they believed they were more fun and thematic of the wolves.

[JadedMask]

I like this idea just because Ive always wanted to make a counts-as thundwolf cavalry with gryph-chargers from AoS and put some knights on top instead of Vikings. I also get what you're saying about the rag-tag nature of SW fitting the vibe of BT and I agree and like that idea.

 

I can't speak to what we've lost since our codex because I am a total newb. I own the codex:BT and the current C:SM but I haven't played any games yet at all. But from the perspective of a newbie, I feel like we get a lot of love in the codex. Outside of the Ultramarines, we have the most pages of fluff, the most special characters, and we even have our own troops choice which is the best one in the codex. Again, I can't compare it to what we used to have because I don't know. I will admit that I'm sorta sad we don't have vows. That seems cool. I'll also admit that since I'm new, I'm not really opposed to running Black Wolves either. I think it's an interesting idea. Like I said, thunder-gryphon cavalry would look awesome, and if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a unit that can take power armor and TDA? That feels like a fluffy templar thing to do.

 

Ultramarines do have more characters, but we do have the second most, which is worth...something I suppose, Best Troops choice? ehh, seems intercessors take that title pretty handily. Vows are gone and unfortunately seem to never return, though I will say the Parallel of the Old Space Wolf Sagas, and Templar Vows, gives me hope for the coming codex. The last point is so important, the rule of cool I think trumps anything else, and I think a Thundergriffon Lancer Unit is as much Templar as anything offered in their codex.

I totally agree that many SW profiles or rules fit better than C:SM ones. I think SW and BT are really similar in that unique flavour by refusing the Codex Astartes.

For example, Blood Claws are a fantastic example about how improve our melee focused Crusader Squads... but replacing the Wolf Guard with a Sword Brother.

 

I still think we could receive some love if Armageddon is revisited in the new fluff and the Deathwatch codex gives us some chances about mixed squads. Of course, SW codex in August (rumour), could give us more ideas.

Thanks, I agree, the Codex has me hopeful for narrative possibilities with my army.

[Honda]

@Jadedmask: Ok, you're a little feisty, we can work with that. :)

 

So, you don't like the SM codex. It's not what you want to play with. Ok, your toys, you can do whatever you want with them.

 

But I am going to challenge you to think on some things...

 

You sound like someone who has been playing Templars from previous editions. You prefer how we used to work. Ok, I get that. We've heard the same thing since the  codex change where we  got rolled into the SM, lo those many years ago..

 

When the change first took place, "our" apple cart had been well and truly tossed over. A lot of people were very unhappy to say the least. They had a very good reason for being so. It wasn't just that someone moved our cheese (reference to a book on change), but for quite awhile many felt we were being written  out of the story line. So lots of expression of ZEAL, for which we are quite famous.

 

But then it came to decision time. Were we all just going to quit because we  didn't like what happened to us? Doesn't sound very Templary does it?

 

If you want to know how that might have turned out, just take a look at the Iron Hands forum. It was quite vibrant at the time of that  Wardian fluff nonsense that GW pushed out and that forum wholesale got up and moved to 30K and to this day are only a former remnant of their previous years. That's what happens to a community when you give up.

 

So, you like vows it appears. Ok, how about this one, "Accept any challenge, no matter the odds!"

 

Note the vow doesn't say "Accept any easy challenge" or "Accept challenges as long as you like what happens next", it says "Accept ANY challenge, no matter the odds."

 

And that's  where our culture came to the rescue, because some of us were determined that we were going to persevere regardless of what GW did to us. We were determined to make the SM codex "ours." So that's what we did. Think about what Rorshach (i.e.  The Watchmen) said to his cellmates, "I'm not locked up in here with you, you're locked up in here with me!"

 

We adapted. In real life, that's what any successful military organization does when faced with change.

 

So you want to play your Templars with different rules. Ok, like I said above, your toys.

 

But coming into a forum that you've barely established yourself in to declare "TEMPLARZ SUX!!! ME WOLVES NOW!!!" doesn't make you a hero.  Now, I may have been harsh in my original comments, which I apologize for, but what we are really interested in is people who are going to contribute to this forum, which means we don't really care about the Vlka Fenryka or  their rules, unless someone is going to talk about synergies and other aspects of those two forces working together.

 

Personally, I've been  interested in modeling some Wulfen, because I wanted to experiment with some different things, but I didn't do that here. Your topic is actually more appropriate in a list building forum elsewhere in the BnC...unless you wanted to start off the thread with, "Hey, I've been considering adding some wolves  to my crusade, I'd like a buff to my CC abilities. Has anyone  else done that?"

 

Note the  difference  in approach between that and how you started out.

 

So think about what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

 

Just realize that we Templar, have been through significant changes in the past 5-6 years. We've had lots of people, old and new, come here and want to vomit over the forum (not accusing you of that, btw) about the good old days, how GW is a racket, the rules suck, etc., etc., etc.

 

That isn't why "we" are here. That behaviour also isn't encouraged. We are looking for contributions that build this forum up. Anyone can drag something down, that's easy...well, maybe not easy here,  but you get my point. ;)

 

I hope that between my aggressive ZEALous responses, you'll have a better understanding of where we are coming from and why I said what I said.

 

Cheers,

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of Honda's sentiments. By no means all of them, and I would add that I would personally prefer to find success with my Templars using the rules GW have provided specifically for them, rather than essentially playing my entire army as 'counts as.'

 

However, saying that I entirely understand where JadedMask is coming from. We play this game. (For a game is all it is.) for fun. And I'm going to be honest here, playing Templars is not that fun anymore. I had way more fun in the Armageddon days when we may not have been all conquering, but golly was throwing huge Crusader squads across the table a fun past-time. They usually almost all made it into combat and they all had a bloody good time with it. We had those great little quirks, like running closer to our enemies when we failed morale tests, (Nothing like watching a Tau player's face when the lads whose mates he had just shot to bits ran even faster at his toy soldiers!) Meanwhile I haven't won a single game in 8th, and haven't really wanted to play a game in months, why? Because although I don't think losing can't be fun. losing every week is definitely not fun, and being completely tabled twice in a week is enough to make even the stoutest player depressed.

 

If JadedMask has found joy in what he does, which is moving toy soldiers painted like Black Templars across a table in such a way that his soldiers actually kick ass when they meet the enemy, I don't think we should shun him from our midst. (It may even perhaps be worth a try?)

 

Heck, Honda, you talk of the zeal of this forum, it's been pretty dead the past few weeks/months, and this new chap's thread, far from killing the forum has actually put some much needed life back into it. (Seriously, this place has been almost dead since the FAQ dropped.)

 

It's also worth pointing out that JadedMask is not the first member of this forum to suggest this very thing. It was only recently that someone was suggesting playing Templars with Blood Angel rules, and no one excommunicated them.

[JadedMask]

@Jadedmask: Ok, you're a little feisty, we can work with that.

 

So, you don't like the SM codex. It's not what you want to play with. Ok, your toys, you can do whatever you want with them.

 

But I am going to challenge you to think on some things...

 

You sound like someone who has been playing Templars from previous editions. You prefer how we used to work. Ok, I get that. We've heard the same thing since the  codex change where we  got rolled into the SM, lo those many years ago..

 

When the change first took place, "our" apple cart had been well and truly tossed over. A lot of people were very unhappy to say the least. They had a very good reason for being so. It wasn't just that someone moved our cheese (reference to a book on change), but for quite awhile many felt we were being written  out of the story line. So lots of expression of ZEAL, for which we are quite famous.

 

But then it came to decision time. Were we all just going to quit because we  didn't like what happened to us? Doesn't sound very Templary does it?

 

If you want to know how that might have turned out, just take a look at the Iron Hands forum. It was quite vibrant at the time of that  Wardian fluff nonsense that GW pushed out and that forum wholesale got up and moved to 30K and to this day are only a former remnant of their previous years. That's what happens to a community when you give up.

 

So, you like vows it appears. Ok, how about this one, "Accept any challenge, no matter the odds!"

 

Note the vow doesn't say "Accept any easy challenge" or "Accept challenges as long as you like what happens next", it says "Accept ANY challenge, no matter the odds."

 

And that's  where our culture came to the rescue, because some of us were determined that we were going to persevere regardless of what GW did to us. We were determined to make the SM codex "ours." So that's what we did. Think about what Rorshach (i.e.  The Watchmen) said to his cellmates, "I'm not locked up in here with you, you're locked up in here with me!"

 

We adapted. In real life, that's what any successful military organization does when faced with change.

 

So you want to play your Templars with different rules. Ok, like I said above, your toys.

 

But coming into a forum that you've barely established yourself in to declare "TEMPLARZ SUX!!! ME WOLVES NOW!!!" doesn't make you a hero.  Now, I may have been harsh in my original comments, which I apologize for, but what we are really interested in is people who are going to contribute to this forum, which means we don't really care about the Vlka Fenryka or  their rules, unless someone is going to talk about synergies and other aspects of those two forces working together.

 

Personally, I've been  interested in modeling some Wulfen, because I wanted to experiment with some different things, but I didn't do that here. Your topic is actually more appropriate in a list building forum elsewhere in the BnC...unless you wanted to start off the thread with, "Hey, I've been considering adding some wolves  to my crusade, I'd like a buff to my CC abilities. Has anyone  else done that?"

 

Note the  difference  in approach between that and how you started out.

 

So think about what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

 

Just realize that we Templar, have been through significant changes in the past 5-6 years. We've had lots of people, old and new, come here and want to vomit over the forum (not accusing you of that, btw) about the good old days, how GW is a racket, the rules suck, etc., etc., etc.

 

That isn't why "we" are here. That behaviour also isn't encouraged. We are looking for contributions that build this forum up. Anyone can drag something down, that's easy...well, maybe not easy here,  but you get my point.

 

I hope that between my aggressive ZEALous responses, you'll have a better understanding of where we are coming from and why I said what I said.

 

Cheers,

I think you call upon a collective agreement that you don't have. You speak as if all the members of this forum have resolved to using the Codex: Space Marines rules when that clearly isn't the case just by reading the responses to this thread. I think you're channeling a bit of a martyr complex that I think is misplaced in a game of miniature soldiers and dice rolling. Realistically, playing the game the way GW dictates isn't "Persevering" as much as it is accepting. No one is going to give you a pat on the back for playing your army, maybe a bit of pity, as I've received my fair share of it as I've played 8th, announcing my army to the tune of "Oh geez sorry".  

 

Now to me declaring that Templars Suck and Wolves are awesome, I understand using shock, as my original write-up did intend to shake some people up, but you must realize what a gross oversimplification that is. I've played Templars for years and I have not enjoyed their trajectory as far as their rules go. I voiced my displeasure and how I would go about solving it and having more fun in my games, in a way that I believe captures the essence of the Black Templars. 

 

Also you still seem to think that I want anything to do with Wolves outside of their rules. As if I want to "Add wolf allies to my crusade". No. I've made more than clear, I will be using my army as Wolves, not playing space wolves. I don't understand the idea of "the entire army is counts as" anyways. If someone painted their army with an alternate color scheme, you would not say that army was a "Counts As" version of another army, its whatever army they say it is.

 

If my disgruntled rant about Codex: Space Marines being more boring than a washing machine on a rinse cycle is enough to "Vomit on the forums" then I can't imagine this collective power you seem to channel is really there.

 

How is looking at a new way of fielding an army while keeping the sentiment and fluff intact not "helping the forum" it seems odd to me that this sentiment is projected as some sort of attack when I clearly did not intend such a thing.

 

I understand where your coming from, you've struggled through the abysmal treatment of our army for multiple editions, and realized that hilarious jokes like, oh, say, the Ultramarines getting an anti-psyker relic when we have no defense against ever present smite spam, won't ever be fixed, and that if you wanna play Templars, you're stuck with Codex: Space Marines, so you're going to make the best of the trench your stuck in. You've been in the trench, and maybe even sacrificed a lot of good men just to hold it, but in reality, I say that this isn't some grandiose martyrdom, some almighty pilgrimage of suffering that all templar players must bear. It's a Game. Whatever represents our army is completely contingent on how fun it is. We all like Black Templars because of the Lore, because of the iconic style, because of the historical analogues, no one comes to this forum because they like "Reroll Failed Charge Rolls". And this is the essence of my argument, I am not deconstructing and I'm not picking up space wolves and saying "Lmao Blue grey is cooler than Black" I'm sharing a personal experience of frustration that led to fun and seeing if anyone else had something similar happen with their army, and perhaps offer the idea to people who are frustrated with their under supported army.  See it as what you will, and I will be happy to post the pictures of my army on here soon enough, and talk about paint schemes and conversions, but I suppose I wanted to type this up regardless of where it went, and the Black Templars forum seemed fitting.

 

After all, I am a Black Templars player, regardless of what you or anyone else in this forum shouts at me for being.

 

Also, don't quote Templar Vows at me, Accepting any Challenge No Matter The Odds just means standing for what I'm saying here right now.

[Callan]

I am still a new player, and only recently decided that the Black Templars were "my chapter."  Watching this discussion is extremely informative.  I'll share my thoughts.

 

1. This is, first and foremost, a game.  Games are played for fun.  I know, I know, the ZEAL took me hard too, but at the end of the day, we're fighting for the honor of a group of awesome religious zealots in space that don't actually exist.  Why is there such animosity here?  What is the point of tearing each other down for having a different idea of how to play?

 

2. C:SM rules are not fun.  They're simple.  They're unimaginative.  They're weak.  They make playing the game a chore, and why are we devoting so much time, money, effort, and emotional investment to that specific ruleset?  No one here is arguing that the C:SM rules are perfectly fine.  The best "defense" is that we should endure it for tradition's sake, and because the fluff says we should.  The fluff also says that we should conquer in the Emperor's name, and that part looks pretty difficult under the C:SM rules.  Yes, we have some small bright spots, like the Emperor's Champion, but we're severely lacking in rules to play the Templars on the table as they're supposed to fight in the fluff.  Why not look for stopgap solutions that are fun for you?

 

3. Rules and fluff aren't that closely related.  Playing Black Templars, proudly showing your heraldry, with the Emperor foremost in your thoughts, but agreeing with your opponent that you'll be playing with Space Wolf or Blood Angel rules because those rules better represent the experience you're looking for?  Seems legit to me.

 

Personally, I'm going to still be collecting and painting Black Templars on the off chance that we become a fun army again some sweet day, but until then, I'll be PLAYING entirely different armies.  I'm forever wearing black on the inside, but the rules support just isn't there yet.

[JadedMask]

I am still a new player, and only recently decided that the Black Templars were "my chapter."  Watching this discussion is extremely informative.  I'll share my thoughts.

 

1. This is, first and foremost, a game.  Games are played for fun.  I know, I know, the ZEAL took me hard too, but at the end of the day, we're fighting for the honor of a group of awesome religious zealots in space that don't actually exist.  Why is there such animosity here?  What is the point of tearing each other down for having a different idea of how to play?

 

2. C:SM rules are not fun.  They're simple.  They're unimaginative.  They're weak.  They make playing the game a chore, and why are we devoting so much time, money, effort, and emotional investment to that specific ruleset?  No one here is arguing that the C:SM rules are perfectly fine.  The best "defense" is that we should endure it for tradition's sake, and because the fluff says we should.  The fluff also says that we should conquer in the Emperor's name, and that part looks pretty difficult under the C:SM rules.  Yes, we have some small bright spots, like the Emperor's Champion, but we're severely lacking in rules to play the Templars on the table as they're supposed to fight in the fluff.  Why not look for stopgap solutions that are fun for you?

 

3. Rules and fluff aren't that closely related.  Playing Black Templars, proudly showing your heraldry, with the Emperor foremost in your thoughts, but agreeing with your opponent that you'll be playing with Space Wolf or Blood Angel rules because those rules better represent the experience you're looking for?  Seems legit to me.

 

Personally, I'm going to still be collecting and painting Black Templars on the off chance that we become a fun army again some sweet day, but until then, I'll be PLAYING entirely different armies.  I'm forever wearing black on the inside, but the rules support just isn't there yet.

Point 3. Point 3. 110%

[Honda]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of Honda's sentiments. By no means all of them, and I would add that I would personally prefer to find success with my Templars using the rules GW have provided specifically for them, rather than essentially playing my entire army as 'counts as.'

 

This forum would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed on everything. Please do feel free to express your own opinions and thoughts, we are a community with a common spirit, not the Tau.

 

However, saying that I entirely understand where JadedMask is coming from. We play this game. (For a game is all it is.) for fun. And I'm going to be honest here, playing Templars is not that fun anymore. I had way more fun in the Armageddon days when we may not have been all conquering, but golly was throwing huge Crusader squads across the table a fun past-time.

 

Actually, I understand exactly where he is coming from. Note, I am not saying his sentiments are invalid, nor yours if  you agree with him.

 

But let me ask you, if you just use another set of rules to get what you want, is there an incentive on anyone's part to fix anything? Just a thought.

 

They usually almost all made it into combat and they all had a bloody good time with it. We had those great little quirks, like running closer to our enemies when we failed morale tests, (Nothing like watching a Tau player's face when the lads whose mates he had just shot to bits ran even faster at his toy soldiers!)

 

To which I also say, I understand. We, however, can't do anything about how you used to enjoy playing the game. Not a single thing. Now given that set of circumstances, what are you going to do? Move  on? Ok, your choice. Use different rules? Ok go for it. Complain about the "good ol' days"? Not Ok.

 

Meanwhile I haven't won a single game in 8th, and haven't really wanted to play a game in months, why? Because although I don't think losing can't be fun. losing every week is definitely not fun, and being completely tabled twice in a week is enough to make even the stoutest player depressed.

 

Maybe it's your meta and you can't change that. A long time ago (your Armageddon period), my meta was a lot more brutal than it was now. "The" group consisted of mostly tournament players and it wasn't uncommon for me to get killed on a regular basis...and your right, most people can only take so much enjoyment out  of that kind of activity before they go sour.

 

Now, I had a couple of choices, I could quit, I could play BA or SW because they were hot at that  time (something I did consider) or I could ask people who weren't getting killed every week, what  were they doing.

 

Now, I know where this will invariably lead to, which is, "but I want to play my Templars the way they used  to play AND  I want to win." You  can't do that the way you used to. The rules have changed and there's no going back unless GW decides to make a change...and there's nothing we can do about that.

 

If JadedMask has found joy in what he does, which is moving toy soldiers painted like Black Templars across a table in such a way that his soldiers actually kick ass when they meet the enemy, I don't think we should shun him from our midst. (It may even perhaps be worth a try?)

 

I don't mind if he does that at all, like I said, his toys, he can do whatever he wants. However, why stop there? Why not run Khorne Berzerkers, or Orks, or Genestealers? If all you want is rules, by all means, find the best rules you can and go have fun.

 

Heck, Honda, you talk of the zeal of this forum, it's been pretty dead the past few weeks/months, and this new chap's thread, far from killing the forum has actually put some much needed life back into it. (Seriously, this place has been almost dead since the FAQ dropped.)

 

It's the end of the school year, lots of other things are taking place outside of this forum (Bolter and Chainsword) that impact activity levels. Like..

 

1. Summer - it's tends to be quieter over summer months because of a lot of reasons, not the least of  which is free sunshine and vacations.

 

2. ETL - Most  people have a fixed budget in regards to time for their hobbies. So in our case, if people  have a painting commitment that they are taking seriously, they have to choose between "yakking" or painting. Right now a lot of people are spending time on painting.

 

Those are just the two biggies that  usually affect activity. There are probably more.

 

Without acknowledging explicitly what  the  FAQ has done, it is possible that  some people are trying to assess what those changes mean. I heard some rumbling about drop pods, but just based on what I've heard anecdotally, I haven't been too  concerned as I haven't had a chance to play with them yet.

 

But, I understand that could have an effect though I think the overall effect has yet to be determined.

 

It's also worth pointing out that JadedMask is not the first member of this forum to suggest this very thing.

 

You're entirely correct on that point. People have been suggesting it for years, so it's hardly new. One might also ask, why bother mentioning it at all? Why not go play 10-20 games and let us know how they went? Then  we'd have something to discuss. A declaration is fine, but follow through is worth more.

 

It was only recently that someone was suggesting playing Templars with Blood Angel rules, and no one excommunicated them.

 

"Excommunicated" is a rather strong word. I would like to think that we are engaging in a debate where all opinions are valued. If I am being overly tyrannical, click on the report button and I will be judged by my peers (mods/admins) and the appropriate action taken.

 

Before I end this post, I am going to cut something from another thread we had to  have due to circumstances. Perhaps it will give you some insight into why just showing up so you can complain about things that you don't like doesn't get very far.

 

There have been entire forums nearly destroyed because of negativity. In some cases, people were told to leave as they didn't fit in with our community. That's not what is taking place in this discussion, but the principle is the same. We discuss with  the goal of working to solve a problem.

 

If all someone wants  to do is complain, then there are other forums that allow/encourage that sort of behavior. That's not the type of environment  we are attempting to promote.

 

 

MOD VOICE:

 

Ok, let's have a little understanding among ourselves.

 

You all have a right to your opinions. That is one of the great strengths of our community, everyone gets to be represented.

 

However, with that freedom comes a very important responsibility.

 

One of the other great strengths of this community is the positive, nurturing environment that encourages new members and old, regardless of skill level or aptitude, providing the fertile soil for people to grow.

 

That doesn't happen when people are negative. In fact, just the opposite occurs. Other forums out there have allowed any type of discussion to the detriment of the community and all there have suffered.

 

That isn't going to happen here.

 

We are a unique forum in a unique environment. We are different. We hold ourselves to a higher standard and that is why we thrive. It is harder to be positive. Things don't always go your way. That is how life is. It is a measure of your character by how you react to what happens to you.

 

This forum is a little bit like Real Life ™. Things happen to our little world. Sometimes they are good, some times not. Sometimes you like what has happened, sometimes you don't.

 

Very often you don't get to choose what happens.

 

That does not give you the right to turn this place into your toilet.

 

Things have gotten a little out of hand in the last little bit. People went from being very excited about what was happening in 8th edition to jumping off the cliff because of rumors.

 

That is not like us at all. We're all better than that.

 

We need to reflect those ideals that represent us, that's how we continue to grow and develop as a forum.

 

So I'm laying down the gauntlet and going to challenge you. We are known for our ZEAL.

 

However, ZEAL is a two edged sword. When it isn't focused on productive endeavors, it turns sour very quickly.

 

The tone here has become sour.

 

Some of you may not like being positive, and I'm not talking about being a fanboi/fangurl or pollyannish.

 

I am talking about being the type of person who is a contributor, who builds upon what is already there. Someone who makes this place a little better when they are here.

 

We are experiencing unprecedented change in something that we all hold dear. Some of us have quite an investment in this little world we exist in and we might feel threatened by all the change occurring. It is human nature to avoid change. Change takes us out of our comfort zone. Change can be difficult.

 

Change is personal.

 

That isn't something new for us Templars. We have had change thrust upon us since we lost our codex. It happened and there's no going back to the way it used to be...except in how we adapt to the changes around us.

 

How we conduct ourselves.

 

We can choose to remain resolute. We can emulate those ideals and individuals that make our chapter what it is. We can take the blow, if that is how you perceive it, and remain standing.

 

We can choose to remain Templars.

 

So make that choice.

 

Decide to stay, uphold the honor that is ours and ours alone. Pick up your sword and continue this journey, the one we call "The Eternal Crusade".

 

Be the light.

 

 

The full thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336854-on-being-a-templar/?p=4824377

[Callan]

Honda, I think discussing ways to use the current rules to play Black Templars is an ideal way to signal the best way we can that we are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs, are interested in a solution, and what direction we would like the solution to move in.  For instance, this thread brings up the legitimate point that some Black Templars players feel that the Space Wolves have rules that better represent the Templars than the rules the Templars have.  The specifics of the failings of the Black Templar rules, and why the Space Wolf rules are better, are spelled out explicitly.  I don't know if anyone from GW ever reads this forum, but hey, maybe it will contribute the getting our problems fixed.  If not, at least it might inspire people to try something new and maybe have more fun with the Templars than they had before.

[JadedMask]

Complaining is a Component of my discussion, Negatvity is a Component of My Discussion.

 

But they are no means my discussion.

 

The end of my post is very positive and hopeful. And the obvious answer is that Orks and Genestealers are not space marines, and are worlds different rules wise. The slippery slope argument rarely works and I find it doesn't work here either.

 

[Honda]

Ok, I just read Jadedmask's last post. I think I may have misunderstood his intent and if so I apologize. There should be no animosity here, because as was pointed out, we're talking about little toy men. This is not life and death.

 

What I should be clearer on is my desire for this thread to not turn into a well of complaints. Perhaps your "shock and  awe" tactics just rubbed me  the wrong  way, which stemmed from others before you, not intending to solve a problem, but just complain.

 

We don't need that.

 

In any case, let's take a step back, extend our hands and try this again. Agreed?

[JadedMask]

Of course, and any perceived animosity on my part was merely frustration at the notion that I was "not a black templars player" anymore because of my decision to change army books, and that it was assumed I would be leaving for the space wolf forum promptly as if sent off to detention.

[Schlitzaf]

Vows

-Accept Chaplain or CM

-Abhor - Abhor (NB Abhor and similar stratagems are best Deny in game, most of the time 33-40% chance to deny.)

-Suffer - Helbrect

Only vow we don’t have is uphold

 

And Intercessors are not better than Crusaders. Intercessors are better than 5 Man Plas/Plas And about equal 5 man Plas/Plas/Hvy. If I were to say looking at the list you posted a few days ago it’s no wonder. Your list is actively and utterly bad. Which I wanted to avoid critiquing sense I was too busy. But I’m tangentinf and in regards to my army so?

 

Mutant? Models come before fluff I wanted to make a guy with cool wings

TwinMarshalls? I ran two captains in my list

[JadedMask]

Vows

-Accept Chaplain or CM

-Abhor - Abhor (NB Abhor and similar stratagems are best Deny in game, most of the time 33-40% chance to deny.)

-Suffer - Helbrect

Only vow we don’t have is uphold

 

And Intercessors are not better than Crusaders. Intercessors are better than 5 Man Plas/Plas And about equal 5 man Plas/Plas/Hvy. If I were to say looking at the list you posted a few days ago it’s no wonder. Your list is actively and utterly bad. Which I wanted to avoid critiquing sense I was too busy. But I’m tangentinf and in regards to my army so?

 

Mutant? Models come before fluff I wanted to make a guy with cool wings

TwinMarshalls? I ran two captains in my list

Models come before fluff, but Models and Fluff don't come before Codex Rules? That's some ass backwards logic. and as for my list, despite you having a vendetta and being angry tip tappin' away behind your keyboard, I know it was bad, why would I post a good list for help with? Plus I was trying to have fun with Templars remember? but I've found a way to do so that does far better on the tabletop competitively, sorry you got upset over nothing. ^-^

[Schlitzaf]

Because what you aren’t isn’t Black Templars. What you want is single hyper deathstar super Killy on charge murder fun times. You list wulfen v sword bothern. You complain about lack of x, y and z. And worse you try and claim that 4+ Deny is bad.

 

You then went to claim “We aren’t BT we have no flavor” which is blatantly wrong Crusader Squads are the core part of our flavor. More so than anything else, being only thing we retained in throughout every edition. Finally we have the second best relic in Codex Marines. You are sprouting non sense and falsehood Espacially competivetively.”

[JadedMask]

Because what you aren’t isn’t Black Templars. What you want is single hyper deathstar super Killy on charge murder fun times. You list wulfen v sword bothern. You complain about lack of x, y and z. And worse you try and claim that 4+ Deny is bad.

 

You then went to claim “We aren’t BT we have no flavor” which is blatantly wrong Crusader Squads are the core part of our flavor. More so than anything else, being only thing we retained in throughout every edition. Finally we have the second best relic in Codex Marines. You are sprouting non sense and falsehood Espacially competivetively.”

Desiring a Competent Unit on the charge is wanting a deathstar? I'm not going to entertain this since you seem angry and as we discussed earlier that's not what this is  about. You do what makes you happy, my opinions are my own, no need to get so heated.