Black Templars as Space Wolves, A transformation, and Why?

[AndrewChristlieb]

From my experience the biggest problem I see people having with how BT play is that they expect Crusader Squads to be exceptional in melee. They really never have been though. Marines as a whole are really only okay there, kinda like they are with everything. Okay shooting, okay melee, okay durability and so on. That’s what happens when you’re the base line for the game, congrats you’re the human in D&D.

 

If you want a melee focused build then I don’t see a problem playing with SW/BA or... gasp... even khorne rules if that’s what makes you happy. It’s really no different then playing black ultramarines as some people do. Heck if you really want to tick off people here play em as grey knights :D

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Crusader Squads were not exceptional in melee because they were better than regular marines. What they did however, was deliver a weight of attacks that no other marine unit could come close to, by virtue of their numbers and extra attacks for everyone having close combat weapons. The old mixed armour save rule also made the squad more survivable than it currently is, so you had a better chance of all of the squad getting into combat.

We also had more chance of landing that weight of attacks in the old days than other marines if we took Accept Any Challenge, however, seeing as all marines hit on a 3+ now anyway, that point is largely moot.

[Closet Skeleton]

Changing to Space Wolves won't make my over-priced Land Raider Crusaders any easier to fit into a list so the way I see it there's pretty much no way to play real Black Templars this edition. You basically have to take Helbrecht to make BT any good at shooting and special characters don't fit my crusade's fluff.

 

I’m going to start off with that;
Every Chapter lost Reclusiarchs
SB were always just renamed regular veterans
Crusader Seals? Who took them
BT as a Melee Army that is more complicated answer but let us handle the UU question

Unique Units:
In terms of actual truly unique non SC Templar Units there have been 6:
Crusader Squads
Crusader Biker Squad
Neophyte Banner Bearer
Sword Brothern
Durandal Dreadnought
Emperor’s Champion
Cenobyte Servitors

Sword Brothern are just Company Veterans even in their old rules
Durandal Dreadnoughts representative by Ironclads
Cenos And Champion both now exist simply as unique units
NeoBanner is lost but who took it?
Leaving us exactly one unit not represented in rules mechanically (but easy to recreate). The Biker Crusader Squad.
Now then notice something what remains? Crusader Squads.

 

Technically Reclusiarchs were never a unique Black Templar unit, but having 4th ed units in 5th ed did define Black Templars for a lot of players.

 

Losing those 4th ed wargear options was generally a good thing, they were basically all traps. I don't know why anyone would want to go back to over-priced 4th ed veterans over Sternguard and Vanguard but I never used power armoured veterans in the first place.

 

Biker Crusader squads were only in Chapter Approved/Codex Armageddon, they've been gone a long time.

[Dark_Jober]

I think the main problem in this subforum is we all agree BT are not well represented in the C:SM BUT we do not share enough information with each other  to improve our game skills. C:SM (or any other) are the resources we have atm and we must do our best in the name of the Emperor.

 

There are many topics about "xxx Crusade" where our brothers post their miniatures, thoughts, etc. But there are few post about games, combos, loadouts, synergy... We need to share more, because I read some posts and there are no two BT playing the same style.

Seriously, what lists are people running? Are you playing shooty MSU, Black Tide, Razor/Rhino Spam?

 

I have never liked 40k as ruleset, only as lore source and for collecting, but now in 8th I'm playing a lot. I played 2-3games in 5th, 1-2 in 6thEd, 0 in 7thEd. And I think I have played at least 6-7 games since Xmas!!! I'm superhappy with this edition.

But I'm a noob and I need more lists and more sources of BT resources. It is true that many times my rival smashes me, specially in the first two games, but now I get some victories. And when losing is for a narrow difference.

 

Every day I search in the Internet for lists, advices and reports, but I found nothing, best places are this subforum and Laeroth's blog, but still not enough stuff.

[Medjugorje]

so much hate in here...

 

Look what GW has done to us. We should work on a way GW to recognize that !

[Schlitzaf]

To answer question Dark Jober; Black Tide.

 

Black Tide is simply most competitive way to run our Templars or MSU Razor Spam. A Black Tide list is composed of 2-3 14-16 Man Crusaders, 0-3 Fire Support (Intercessors, MSU Crusaders or 6-4 Fire Support Crusaders) Squads, then Cenos, Champion, Marshall, And Castallen then cheap distraction carnifexes (Reivar, Assault Squads And Inceptors).

 

Finally you have a backrow anchor support Squads. I use Gaurdsman, you could use Crusaders or Devies. Then fill you with what you want or prefer. In principle its similar to green tide. The list lacks a traditional hammer (unless you use your fill points for a Terminator or Vangaurd Squad). But it presents an anchor or backfield, a reliable center and way to project fire power.

 

My current list for example

Black Templar Bat&Vang

HQ 259

Primaris Marshall - 106; Power Fist & PlasmPistol

-Helm, Warlord (Rite or Angel)

Castallen - 78; Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol

-Teeth of Terra

Emperor’s Champion - 75

 

Elite 306

2x Reivar Squad - 200 (100); 5 Man, Chutes

-Sgt w/Carb&Knife, 4x Reiv w/HvyPistol&Knife

1x Reivar Squad - 100; 5 Man, Chutes

-Sgt w/Carb&Knife, 4x Reiv w/Carb&HvyPistol

Cenobyte Servitors - 6

 

Troops 580

2x Crusader Squad - 392(196); 14 Man, 7x Neo w/BP&Knife

-SB w/CombiFlam&PowSword, 1x Init w/BP&PowSword, 1x Init w/Flamer

-4x Init w/BP&Chain

2x Intercessor Squad - 188(94); 5 Man, 4x Inter w/BoltRifle

-Sgt w/BoltRifle&PowSword

 

Fast 280

2x Assault Squad - 280(140); 7 Man, Jump Pack, 4x Mar w/BP&Chain

-Sgt w/TwinPlasmPistol, 2x Mar w/PlasmPistol&Chain

Total 1425

 

Vostroyan Battlelion

HQ - 75

Company Commander - 30; Shotgun, Chain

-Kurov’s

Tempestor Prime - 45; Command Rod, Chain

 

Elite - 88

Militarum Tempestus Command - 88; 4 Man

-4x Scions w/PlasmGun

 

Troops - 214

2x Infantry Squad - 116 (68); 9 Man, 6x Gaurd w/Lasgun, 1x Gaurd w/PlasmGun

-Sgt w/Boltgun&Chain, HvyTeam w/MissileLauncher

1x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 78; 5 Man, 2x Scion w/HotShotLas

-Tempestor w/PlasmPistol&Chain, 2x Scion w/PlasmGun

 

Fast 120

2x Rough Riders - 120(60); 5 Man, 2x Pony w/LP, Chain + Lance

-Sgt w/LP, Chain + Lance, 2x Pony w/LP, Chain + PlasmGun

 

Heavy Support - 78

1x Heavy Weapon Squad - 78; 3 Man, 3x HvyTeam w/Lascannon

Total 575

Grand 2000

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The problem with your approach Schlitz is that you don't help people with their lists. You just tell everyone to play yours.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-koDz6l5Q6rM/U0rqnFb2JlI/AAAAAAAACq0/nij_RCWNHXM/s1600/pain+is+temporary.jpg

 

 

I hold it with Brohter Honda. Instead of griefing I try to adapt and make the best out of the situation, gameplay- and fluffwise. That doesn't mean that I'm super happy with how things stand with our Chapter or C:SM in general. The good thing is, that 40k has a living ruleset that evolves constantly and one of the best things that recently happend to us is the change GW went through: They actually started to listen to us, their customers. So instead of putting energy in long ranting-posts I prefer to write constructive feedback to the game- and rule-developpers, ensuring (hoping) we won't be overlooked coming the next edition or codex changes. After all it's up to us to show GW that there still is a large and acitve BT community (including ADB and Duncan afaik) and that we are one of the most popular chapters (just look at the Echo the Helsreach-Videoseries generated).

 

I'm very positive that future changes to the game will be in our favour, if we manage to make us heard.

[Honda]

Ok, let's all take a step back and remember, there are no bad guys here.

 

I think one of the challenges we as Templars face is the fact that GW turned C:SM into a combined arms codex. Lot's of  things need to work together in order to arrive at a successful conclusion.

 

That means to me that crusaders aren't bad, but they need something else to support them if they are going to push through the chaff and engage a unit. In  my case, that ends up being assault  termies with  TH/SS. Not everyone  wants to field those, but "you" will need to field something. Also, running across the table is the cheapest way to come to grips with someone, but it's no longer as fast as it used to be, nor does it appear that one can bring enough bodies to successfully do that, though I'm not completely convinced of that yet.

 

However, if we are to "accept the challenge", i.e. what do the wolves bring to the table to make an old 4th edition era list equivalent, what would that list look like.

 

...and this is  where I think the wolves forum would be more beneficial, as I don't have a clue what  the wolves bring to the table.

 

Is it termie wolf guard with SS to soak up hits, while grey slayers run along behind them? I just don't know.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I would be intrigued to see a Wolf templar list.

[Sete]

What I want is a good CT not the piss poor one we have.

 

Besides that and this stupid limbo with old marines and new Primaris, I have been saving a lot of money.

[Medjugorje]

From my experience the biggest problem I see people having with how BT play is that they expect Crusader Squads to be exceptional in melee. They really never have been though. Marines as a whole are really only okay there, kinda like they are with everything. Okay shooting, okay melee, okay durability and so on. That’s what happens when you’re the base line for the game, congrats you’re the human in D&D.

 

If you want a melee focused build then I don’t see a problem playing with SW/BA or... gasp... even khorne rules if that’s what makes you happy. It’s really no different then playing black ultramarines as some people do. Heck if you really want to tick off people here play em as grey knights

 

use math and you will see that you are wrong. In 5th Edition you really had a chance to fight strong melee units. 10 Crusaders  Against many other strong melee units was playable to very good - but against weak units it was able to hold them in close combat and stayed in ... thats not possilbe at the moment.

 

It was enough to get into close combat against shooty enemies... Nowadays your units must be able to make some damage - if not your enemy will shoot your units...

[Medjugorje]

Changing to Space Wolves won't make my over-priced Land Raider Crusaders any easier to fit into a list so the way I see it there's pretty much no way to play real Black Templars this edition. You basically have to take Helbrecht to make BT any good at shooting and special characters don't fit my crusade's fluff.

 

I’m going to start off with that;

Every Chapter lost Reclusiarchs

SB were always just renamed regular veterans

Crusader Seals? Who took them

BT as a Melee Army that is more complicated answer but let us handle the UU question

 

Unique Units:

In terms of actual truly unique non SC Templar Units there have been 6:

Crusader Squads

Crusader Biker Squad

Neophyte Banner Bearer

Sword Brothern

Durandal Dreadnought

Emperor’s Champion

Cenobyte Servitors

 

Sword Brothern are just Company Veterans even in their old rules

Durandal Dreadnoughts representative by Ironclads

Cenos And Champion both now exist simply as unique units

NeoBanner is lost but who took it?

Leaving us exactly one unit not represented in rules mechanically (but easy to recreate). The Biker Crusader Squad.

Now then notice something what remains? Crusader Squads.

 

Technically Reclusiarchs were never a unique Black Templar unit, but having 4th ed units in 5th ed did define Black Templars for a lot of players.

 

Losing those 4th ed wargear options was generally a good thing, they were basically all traps. I don't know why anyone would want to go back to over-priced 4th ed veterans over Sternguard and Vanguard but I never used power armoured veterans in the first place.

 

Biker Crusader squads were only in Chapter Approved/Codex Armageddon, they've been gone a long time.

no - there was a FAQ that give us Storm shields to assault squads and biker crusaders

[Medjugorje]

https://ibb.co/i16uOJ

https://ibb.co/i16uOJ

 

 

so you see how GW interpreted BT at those days !

BT used to be a MELEE ARMY

[Schlitzaf]

In any case what we need is a small buff to make 1A models a little better. For using power weapons to make them not feel bad when using over chainsword, hence my suggestion in addition to our current tactic add if a model fights using a -1 or higher AP MELEE Weapon it may make one additional attack with that weapon. And then give us back Biker Crusaders and allow us to use regular power weapons in place of Evis and give combat shield to assault marines

 

And allowing devies to take power weapons instead of heavies would be cool to.

 

Medj we are firefight-attrition melee. We want to get in close (12) to use our Weaponry and then want to finish the job with melee as we drag out combat. Basically if DeathGaurd is range (firefight) mostly with a helping of melee we are melee with a helping of firefight. Basically tactical and gameplay wise, Templars are the DeathGaurd but a different ‘focus’

[AndrewChristlieb]

Yup in 5th Crusaders were okay in melee. They still are, but they’re just ‘okay’. I’m not arguing that they are not able to be played as a melee force, just that they are not suited to taking on units which are clearly better at it then they are... and they never have been. They can, and could, hold their own against most units for a bit though.

 

Rehashing the past is pretty pointless however since most everyone here is playing the newest edition. I’ll second some of the other comments here and say that more insite into what is working for people would be better then wishing for our basic troop choice to do something it can’t right now.

[Medjugorje]

the problem is that they are not "okay" in melee. They suck.

 

In fungames all units used to be okay. But if you are going a little bit closer to competitive gaming you have massive problems to be solved - and clearly not with  crusaders - waste of points you better put into firepower instead - what is very sad if you WANT to play focussed in close combat but you cant if you want to win anything

[Othniel's Blade]

Looking at Imp1, blood claws can have 15 marines with chainswords/bp plus 2 specials and a plasma pistol, plus a power weapon, plus an additional SB equivalent with all the options. Plus 1 attack on the charging Fight phase. I get the appeal.

[Sete]

Just saw House Griffith "CT", imagine that with BT? It would be perfect for me.

[JadedMask]

Just saw House Griffith "CT", imagine that with BT? It would be perfect for me.

I find it prudent to point out, that ability will probably be the one space wolves get, given their history of counterattack.

[Medjugorje]

but heroic intervention is like what templars used to have as "R.Z"

[Kisada]

I fully support and understand JadedMask

 

After a handful of games with my Templars I've put them on the shelf ... I only get to play rarely and taking them was just not a fun way to spend 3-4 precious hours of my time.

 

Do I still love the Templars?  Yes of course ... my avatar hasn't changed, I still have Templar projects lined up, they hold a prominent spot on my display shelves, I've picked Imperial Fists as my 30k Legion because of heritage .... but I just don't have fun playing them.

 

Currently I'm playing my Last Wall primaris with Deathwatch rules and although I've only played 2 games its been fun enough to spark a burst of hobby progress.  Its not pure Black Templar but my watch master is painted as BT as well as my Redemptor.  

 

If using another chapter's rules make it fun for JadedMask to take is crusade out on the table then I support it and would actually even like to hear about the details ... maybe it will encourage me to dust off my own crusade and give it a go.

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly all said and done, the reason I take issue with folks saying “I will play X Army as Templars” because what is a Templar army without Crusader Squads? Also Medj I will debate to end of the Earth about where the Crusader Squads fall on the spectrum. MSU squads outside specific strategies (Razorspam or deep strike alphas). And a lot of folks insist on running Squads as MSU without the Razors support or as MSU Deep Strikes (Assault and Vang).

 

If you want to charge off ‘deep strikes’ you want 2-3 largish Squads with reroll charge or something like 3d6 rerollable failed charge or pre-faq warp time. Charging units need raw body count for multiple reasons. One is that it makes enemy interruption less painful and that you can better utilize strategems and otherwise.

 

The Crusader’s Helm gives the coverage area equivalence of two characters for example. That means you can keep characters in middle to prepare for counter assault without having to danger close. Notably after consolidation you likely move 6” inches or charging you’ll end up outside 6”. Here the Helm is invaluable.

 

And I said “Deathstar Unit that Murders on Charge” specifically. Because that has never been a Templar thing. Templars have been mechanically about outlasting our opponent not fast murderizing. If what you want is fast murderize then yes Puppies or Vampires are for you.

 

If you want to slow burn and drag with weight of bodies and reliably than you have Templars. Is the thing I see folks complaining about, but it’s important mechanical distinction to stress we have over say BA or SW. Our buffs were uniquely not for one round only. (Hence my suggestion that models using MELEE weapons with an AP -1 or Greater may attack one more time with that weapon. It gives a unique aspect, that would highlight my ideal two unique Templar units. Crusader and Conquistador (Biker Crusaders) who can take power weapons on 1A models but making taking those weapons feel less bad than on a chainsword).

 

Additionally it’s vital to understand as Templars, this edition, named SC aside. We have several things going for us

1) The Best Tactical Equivalent (Or tied with Grey Hunters; it has premier strategic flexibility able to be faux Devi or comparable to Vangaurd offensively. Meaning we can unlock a Battelion without resorting to an actively bad choices. I am not saying Crusaders are as good Devies or Vang, but are comparable or a side grade. When your troop choice is reasonably comparable to your “elite” and “heavy” it’s pretty good.

2) Cheap Speciality: Champion + Cenos make an easy Vangaurd

3) One of the best Relics in C:SM. And our force has easily three appreciable melee class characters, Champion, Character w/Teeth and character with w/Fist, Relic or Hammer (And Helm Relic). Then we have our High Marshall who is actually good in melee for once with STR 6 Weapon.

4) Competitively the most important but our strategem is one of the best denies in the game. Sense remember opponents win ties. Meaning in a standard deny battle, it’s 60-40 or something casters favor. We improve that to a 50-50 with any single unit being able to stop powers regardless of board stage. Not to be underestimated. It’s why people take 3 5 Man MSU Scouts Competitively of BT chapter.

 

All this together you have a force that wants to spam its troops and take a Speciality. Our force could reasonably do 2 Bats, double Castallen, Champion, Marshall w/Helm. 2 FauxDevi Crusaders, 2-4 Tide Crusaders, 0-3 Fire Support Crusaders, 0-3 Scouts, 0-4 Intercessors. A Templar focused list would want to best leverage its troops and solid Speciality, alongside our Relic. While using our tactics to reliably make multiple charges turn 2. 3-5 Deep Strikers means means give or take you’ll on average get 2 (if you run 5. It’s 48% success for a charging unit with reroll. Is about 28% without. So if you fail first unit you likelyhood of getting another failure (3 fails in a row) becomes 35% then with free reroll. It reduce 25% a third unit makes he odds of failure then 16% then 11%. 4th and 5th Units have 90% pass rate. So it you’ll normally get 1. But 4-5 deep strikers you get 2nd in pretty often).

 

I could go on, but the reason I am explaining this. Is that what Templar force gears itself naturally is a Razorspam becuase MSU Crusaders or a tide (13-16 Man Squads) force with a large deep strike component. A melee Templar force running tiny squads will run into the issue is that the squads will be effortlessly vaped and because even if you make charge the squads won’t very well to at all. And because of small size they won’t be able to leverage your character buffs nor protect the characters.

 

It’s why you need Tide Squads. Whose larger sizes better enable easy Congos. While your Helm character can actually buff them after a charge 9”. While they are not force to super fun Congo. But you said you felt Wolves do it better?

 

Wolves have their banner, and claws have their extra attack. And their various fun toys. Hunters while comparable/just as good, they are very different and play very different. Hunters are a Jack of all Trades to Crusaders Master of One. Hunters pay ultimately elite model points (16-18ish points) and cannot afford to advance limiting their use of chainswords. While tide or faux devies have no such confusion of battlefield role.

 

Tide Crusaders pay almost points equivalent to Scion/SOB/Scouts per model by the end. (14ish points). Meaning they can be spammed much easier. Notably an Ork 30 Man Boy Squad runs you around 200 points, a 14-16 Man Tide Squad runs you also around 200. While an equivalent wolf tide would paying more around 230-250. While lacking easy battle shock immunity Templars have via Rites, Cenos and Relic Banner (Easy Battle Immunity allow Templars to better utilize an attrition strategy). While Cenos could be killed, they are only 6 points and the 100ish odd some points your foe’s pay cost much more than then cost of the Cenos whom also unlock easy Vangaurd.

 

Now then, if you think Wolves represent melee centered force better. Okay? If you think better Alpha Melee Okay. But your claims in opening claimed they represented Templars better. That is atleast in my humble opinion, is a wrong. Sense what defines Templars more so, is our Crusader Squad which wolves have nothing mechanically similar.

[Sete]

 

 

Just saw House Griffith "CT", imagine that with BT? It would be perfect for me.

I find it prudent to point out, that ability will probably be the one space wolves get, given their history of counterattack.

Yeah to be expected. Left a comment on FB but it was promptly deleted.

It seems they don't like unhappy costumers sharing their opinion.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You cann mathhammer it all you like Schlitz, but although Crusader Squads may be mathematically the best troop type in the codex/Astartes meta, thats not much to shout home about in this edition, space marines just don't cut the mustard.