Black Templars as Space Wolves, A transformation, and Why?

[Schlitzaf]

That is a different issue, then that the Crusaders are bad/worse than Intercessor. Crusaders and Grey Hunters are about only tactical equivalent troop choice who aren’t just worse than Intercessors at midfield/Melee*.

 

Which is what he said about them, is Intercessors > Crusaders.

 

*NB MSU Intercessors are better than MSU Hunters or Crusaders Unless Crusaders are being faux Devi not midfield fire support. 103 points v 94, while guns are about equivalent (2/4 Strength 7 (or 8) AP -3 D1 or 2 + Heavy Bolter, And two Bolter or Chain Bros v 5/10 STR 4 AP -1), Intercessors have 3 Power Sword and double wound and same number of Chainsword attacks.

 

10 Men both squads become weird in relation to Intercessors. At about 150 (Crusaders) or 190-200 (Hunters), Hunter are about 2 Intercessor Squad, 2 Less PW attacks, but reroll 1 advance/charge. And have 3.5 plasma. While Crusaders at 10 Man Fire Support are many ways worse option, sense you’re paying a scout squad more for plasma and heavy Bolter. A tide Crusader is where they become explicitly > Intercessors as midfield center. Sense while only 3/4 Intercessor worth of wounds and 3 less power sword. They have two chainbro more strength 4 AP - Melee. Two specials (which should be flamer or melta so advance and shoot). While Intercessors have more Bolter Shots (20 STR 4 AP -1) vs 13 Strength 4 AP 0 + Specials. The number of basic attacks are equal. But Crusaders less vulnerable to high strength. And are faster because advance each turn and don’t lose anything from being stuck in while the Intercessors aren’t bad in Melee want to be shooting. Crusaders want to be in Melee but if they aren’t they have approximately 20 STR 4 AP -.

[Othniel's Blade]

I think y'all are missing the point. It's not about the math, it's about the joy in playing your army. Having a nearly equivalent troop(s) option(s) with similar play, and thematic sub-rules that encourage a righteously mad charge into the enemy are appealing. I can't fault him. Besides, it's an index army as well- if giving up the crusader helm and deny the witch is worth it to him, go ahead. Why the vitriol?

[Firepower]

Use your little plastic space men as you see fit. Play them with a different Codex, pick your nose with them, decorate a cake with them, whatever floats your boat.

 

I won't go into my feelings on how our Chapter is or isn't well represented in their rules, as my position there is already rather well documented, and that particular dead horse is starting to smell rather gamey.

 

Regardless, let's remember in the end that these are just toys.

[Schlitzaf]

The ‘vitriol’ is because I tire of “but in 4th....” and then bring up things like Master of Sanctity/Reclusiarchs which were not Templar things. Every chapter had that before DA 4th. Further when folks then try and say blatantly false statements (like our Deny strategem is bad at denying?). I’ll accept to some degree folks saying “Crusader Squad are bad at Melee” sense only Tide Crusaders are good at Melee. To a lesser extent issue of Primaris v Original divide. Like there are issue with our Codex, there isn’t a good unit between terminators and company veterans like Sang Gaurd. We have either glasscannon elite or super expensive deathstars you can only fit a squad in a list. (Honor Gaurd would be perfect if they could be larger than 2 Man).

 

And then via his claim of Bloodclaws and Wulfen we need exact similarities. +1 attack on charge or first round only, is exact kind of Melee buff we shouldn’t get. We need something that highlights both us as an unique force, and more so even enables units that would be subpar otherwise. The additional attack when using power weapons, for example makes Crusader Squads Init w/Sword better while also enabling better Assault Marines (allowing ASM to take PowWeapons instead of Evis for BT play well into that tactic but further help define us). I tangent but the point here is that it sucks we lost our old Codex. But the fact folks continue to moan about unique units we lost that weren’t actually unique units. /shrug. Any case FP is right.

 

And well....yeah. I suppose I might have a tad over reactive (that might be a bit mildly put). But that is why

[Sete]

The "oh well it sucks" attitude is what grinds my gears.

 

Maybe I should let go. But I can't.

[Honda]

Ok, MOD voice on now...

 

This thread has pretty much gone the full loop, i.e. I'm waiting to see something different in the discussion.

 

We now have:

 

1. One or more players that are interested in playing Templars as wolves. I think they should do that and report back their results for others to consider.

 

2. The current codex is what it is. You don't have to love it, there are other options out there, but complaining about the codex and what it does or doesn't do for us is "gamey". Most of us get it. Rehashing your disappointment still doesn't change what has taken place. It's time to move on, "nothing to see here".

 

As Jadedmask pointed out, what still ties us together is our lore and although that has also been decisive depending on which authors you decide to accept, we have not let those aspects divide us as a community. How we play our toys will not either.

 

Now is a good time to break and go to our respective corners for a breather.

 

Since this thread was originally about playing Templars as wolves, it would seem that list building, tactics, and results are what should follow.

 

I think we've hijacked Jadedmask's thread long enough.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

So, looking at the index for some inspiration, first off. Chaplains are 4 points more than wolf priests, but wolf priests can do all the same things, and heal!

If I'm reading this right Blood claws can have 16 blokes in a squad! Their special abilities are pretty Templar too, extra attack on a charge of your choice, must charge if possible to do so. (That's pretty Templar!) Two special weapons, plasma pistol, plus Sgt options.

Grey Hunters, they carry Boltguns and also chainswords! So range and extra attack!

Wulfen, they have insane auras! You could play Vanguard Vets as these and these things would rock a centre line,

 

Seriously, I am very tempted by this idea, take a battalion of Wolf Templars, led by Lieutenant and Wolf Priest which has all of the tide squads and the Vanguard Wulfen then another formation of actual Templars so you can take MSU squads for backline heavy weapons, and have that one led by The Emperor's Champion, (who is too good to forfeit, and has no auras so would only lose out on the Wolf Priest and Lieutenant auras, but if he's attacking characters he does those things anyway.

I am doing this!

[JadedMask]

I suppose I should report back my most recent results then,

 

I'm not too good at battle reports and my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I'll tell you what I took away from the game.

 

Played against Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, a super common army in my area.

Turn 1 deals massive damage to the Stormwolf holding two units, second turn he blows it with the three man unit of little vehicle cover giver guys (Herby the Love Bug) The two units inside get shot at but take few casualties, they are both 6 man units of blood claws, 5 guys, 4 with chainswords, 1 with Power Sword/Axe, And then 1 Terminator with Storm Shield and Frost Sword. Charge his line of plague bearers turn 2 and get stuck hitting on -2s (Hate Nurgle) They reach the line with the help of the wulfen, and actually do a fair bit of work despite the - modifiers. I move my guys via pile in so that he can't leave combat, he's surrounded. He moves in some CC deathguard to cut down my Wulfen, but they take it on the chin, storm shield saving a great deal, and when they did die, taking out 1-2 guys with them with their dying attacks.

Turn 3 sees the joining of my chaplain, lord and lieutenant into the fray, with Njal to test the first time I've literally ever used a psyker (Fluffed as a Chaplain using prayers, although a Deathwatch Librarian is a solid alternative). Njal is a beast, Giving my mainline of walking marines a 2+ or the Termies leading the squads a 1+ (-2 rend needed to go to shield). This being the case, my mainline was barely shot, because my opponent figured on not bothering, and turn 3 blew away my wulfen after leaving combat. 

 

All in All it was a bloody combat, my Dreadnought fighting his great unclean valiantly, and dying, before Njal and Lord ran over and clonked him on the head to death. Chaplain ran into backline with only one guy remaining, my opponent only having 3 marines left and 2 love bugs. I ended up taking the day by very little.

 

Side Note: He Rolled INSANE at the start, making 5+ after 5+, making my lascannon and helfrost cannon basically useless, but near the end his dice betrayed him, or rather, became normal, and he stopped rolling so many 5+ saves and FnP

All in All: it was the first time this edition I've beaten the Nurgle armies since their codices were released. Honestly, the aura buffing potential in the army is great, and I'll be swapping out my lord and dread for Bjorn, for some good ol' HQ dread action. Using Arjac as my Marshal "Alrik Schtauffen" was as thematic as I've run him as ever, he's a terminator lord with shield eternal, so the -1 damage and 3+ save was as thematic as usual for that character, if not hitting a bit harder with 5 attacks. Tons of fun, Terminator Led Squads create a hugely powerful footslog base for the army, very hard to displace, especially with +1 saving throws.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Fun and games and all that... but I stopped reading the moment you mentioned Njal...

 

I'm never running Psykers in my Black Templars army, I don't care what they're called or where they're from, or how they explain they got their powers from... WARP TAINT IS WARP TAINT HERETIC... I don't care if I'm shooting my own leg in games with this decision, but I'd rather not play for 10,000 years than have a Black Templar Psyker...

 

I've entertained the idea of using Blood Angel rules for my Templars, but never Wolves... too much difference in terms of available units with how Templars usually work... such as Thunderwolf Cavalry... Wulfen... Stormfangs... Stormwolf and lets not forget Santa Grimnar on his merry sleigh...

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't and this falls more under personal taste, and that it's pretty good if you find it more competitive and whatnot, but I think BA shares more with what Templars would have in the universe such as Grav Weapons, Stormravens and Hyper Dreadnoughts, but also in terms of history and lineage as well...

 

All in all though I've entertained the thought, but it will most likely never happen... the current Codex we are using might be boring and lackluster, but playing anything otherwise (and again this is personal taste) feels like a betrayal of how I have always ran Black Templars... I'm not keen on what we have become, but if I want to run, let's say Space Wolves... then I'll get the proper models and the paints necessary to make them Space Wolves and play them as such...

 

Again, I'm not adding vitriol to the topic, just a note on my personal taste... and I guess if I haven't welcomed you yet in the forum, then Welcome to the Black Templars forum, you fur covered Templar you... tell your "Over Religious" Chaplain to mind the airlock and keep the "Furry" Templars off the carpet ;)

[JadedMask]

Fun and games and all that... but I stopped reading the moment you mentioned Njal...

 

I'm never running Psykers in my Black Templars army, I don't care what they're called or where they're from, or how they explain they got their powers from... WARP TAINT IS WARP TAINT HERETIC... I don't care if I'm shooting my own leg in games with this decision, but I'd rather not play for 10,000 years than have a Black Templar Psyker...

 

I've entertained the idea of using Blood Angel rules for my Templars, but never Wolves... too much difference in terms of available units with how Templars usually work... such as Thunderwolf Cavalry... Wulfen... Stormfangs... Stormwolf and lets not forget Santa Grimnar on his merry sleigh...

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't and this falls more under personal taste, and that it's pretty good if you find it more competitive and whatnot, but I think BA shares more with what Templars would have in the universe such as Grav Weapons, Stormravens and Hyper Dreadnoughts, but also in terms of history and lineage as well...

 

All in all though I've entertained the thought, but it will most likely never happen... the current Codex we are using might be boring and lackluster, but playing anything otherwise (and again this is personal taste) feels like a betrayal of how I have always ran Black Templars... I'm not keen on what we have become, but if I want to run, let's say Space Wolves... then I'll get the proper models and the paints necessary to make them Space Wolves and play them as such...

 

Again, I'm not adding vitriol to the topic, just a note on my personal taste... and I guess if I haven't welcomed you yet in the forum, then Welcome to the Black Templars forum, you fur covered Templar you... tell your "Over Religious" Chaplain to mind the airlock and keep the "Furry" Templars off the carpet

Never said it would be a regular thing, first time I've tried it, plus there's a lot of smite spam in my meta, so that attributed to me giving it a shot. I mean you could always say its like the chaplain in Ultramarine, weird archeotech shenanigans.

[Othniel's Blade]

Aye: fluff out the Chaplain's healing as an inspiring Litany mid-battle; both troops units (barring Intercessors) can add specials, melee weapons plus another dude with a plasma pistol. I made a test list transposing my current BT tactics army with some small changes, and my 5-man shooty crusaders can go 6-man with a bonus plasma shot in and out of melee is need be? That's just cool. Plus the True Grit strat for combat is just evil and a good incentive to get shooty squads up close. Honestly, the EC may be the biggest rules-loss as there arent many 2+ characters.

[Kisada]

Did someone say Black Templar counts as thunderwolf Cav?

 

There used to be a fantastic Black Templar heavy cavalry made from some chaos knight cavalry but I can't seem to find them anymore ... but you get the idea

 

[JadedMask]

Did someone say Black Templar counts as thunderwolf Cav?

 

There used to be a fantastic Black Templar heavy cavalry made from some chaos knight cavalry but I can't seem to find them anymore ... but you get the idea

 

Always loved this idea, thought there is a version with Demigryph Knights that I liked even more, can't find a picture for the life of me though.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Aye: fluff out the Chaplain's healing as an inspiring Litany mid-battle; both troops units (barring Intercessors) can add specials, melee weapons plus another dude with a plasma pistol. I made a test list transposing my current BT tactics army with some small changes, and my 5-man shooty crusaders can go 6-man with a bonus plasma shot in and out of melee is need be? That's just cool. Plus the True Grit strat for combat is just evil and a good incentive to get shooty squads up close. Honestly, the EC may be the biggest rules-loss as there arent many 2+ characters.

Take the EC in a separate detachment? You kind of need a separate detachment to spend CP as wolves don't have any strategems yet.

[Dark_Jober]

 

Take the EC in a separate detachment? You kind of need a separate detachment to spend CP as wolves don't have any strategems yet.

 

 

They have some Stratagems in Chapter Approved. But I think they received 1-3 stratagems.

So they are not able to use Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missiles, two fantastic Stratagems

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Maybe not, but BT can, and seeing as only Long Fangs can take heavy weapons a couple of MSU crusader squads could use them.

I need to get a game in and field some cheese.

[Othniel's Blade]

Did someone say Black Templar counts as thunderwolf Cav?

 

There used to be a fantastic Black Templar heavy cavalry made from some chaos knight cavalry but I can't seem to find them anymore ... but you get the idea

 

I found an Executioners blog that used the same- inspired me to make some Black Knights myself. Of course, 8e lost the auspex so I've been debating re-modelling them and my RW ancient didn't like my adjusting the banner pole.

 

Link in spoiler to avoid trouble: 

https://fourthcompanylibrarium.blogspot.com/2014/04/executioners-command-squad-part-2.html

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Can you imagine how strong a horse would need to be to gallop carrying a marine in full armour...

I always thought Templars on Cold Ones would look cool.

[Firepower]

Can't help but wonder what's wrong with a good old fashioned bike. Maybe stick a lance on either side to make it look meaner.

 

To each their own, but Marines on horseback always struck me as a bit silly...but then again I'm one if those old farts whom misses the days when warhammer had a sense of humor so who am I to complain about that :P

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Can you imagine how strong a horse would need to be to gallop carrying a marine in full armour...

I always thought Templars on Cold Ones would look cool.

 

Always felt like this would fit perfectly with Salamanders... maybe one day I'll play Salamanders using Space Wolves rules... Marines on Dragons, Fire Blades instead of frost, Heat guns instead of cold... maybe but unlikely :p

[JadedMask]

Played a game against Dark Eldar, Fielded footslog Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with Termie Leaders, Game solidified the fact that you NEED to be great on the charge as an assault army. I was never in combat with a unit for more than one turn, they would fall back and let other units unload into me, or for the flying units, unload themselves. Tactical Objectives, only lost 7-8, but I was close to tabling him, and we were laughing the whole game because I never got one card telling me to kill a unit, as I butchered his forces.

[Honda]

Played a game against Dark Eldar, Fielded footslog Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with Termie Leaders, Game solidified the fact that you NEED to be great on the charge as an assault army. I was never in combat with a unit for more than one turn, they would fall back and let other units unload into me, or for the flying units, unload themselves. Tactical Objectives, only lost 7-8, but I was close to tabling him, and we were laughing the whole game because I never got one card telling me to kill a unit, as I butchered his forces.

 

 

Interesting feedback. I don't know what the new  DE codex brings yet, but a good friend of mine has been playing them for years. He's a very good player.

 

My observations over the years are that when I attempt to engage him too early in the game, because of his high mobility (usually brings 4-5 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, a couple Raiders) and characters with lethal HtH capabilities, if I wasn't careful he'd pretty much table me by Turn 2 (I even have a batrep to that effect in my crusade thread).

 

However, on the other side of the coin, when I brought more long range fire to help me degrade his mobility earlier in the game, then he  was less able to isolate elements and I either tied or beat him (there's also a batrep  about that game in my thread).

 

I bring this up because historically, DE have been the antithesis of most SM lists, and if you aren't prepared for them, they will trash you in a very effective manner. Rather quickly I might add. During several editions they were the spoiler at a lot of tournaments because they are the anti-meta list. They were very effective MEQ killers.

 

To that point, DE usually trashed a foot borne Black Tide list because they had all the tools necessary to defeat such an army. It took a willingness to adapt to that threat that determined your degree of success against them. If you just ran a bunch of guys across the table in hopes of crushing  them across the table, they'd isolate your true threats, overwhelm them with poisoned  attacks, then glide in at their leisure and finish off the rest.

 

It didn't matter what  flavor of MEQ list you brought (he could kill them all), if you brought a certain type of list and ignored the DE strengths, short of  complete dice failure it was going to be a long, very short game.

 

So I'm wondering now if you can share observations from your game:

 

1. What was the composition of his list. I'm curious what 8th DE players are interested in.

2. Outside of falling back, then shooting, what else did he do that was effective?

3. What did  you counter his strengths with? Was it termie SS leaders to tank hits?

4. Would taking some longer range firepower to de-mobilize him have had an effect on this game?

5. Did you get any of your CC monsters  to match up against any of  his? How did that go?

6. Roughly, what was your list like, in particular, how many boots on the ground did you have?

7. Did you take any armor support or dreads?

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

Cheers,

[JadedMask]

 

Played a game against Dark Eldar, Fielded footslog Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with Termie Leaders, Game solidified the fact that you NEED to be great on the charge as an assault army. I was never in combat with a unit for more than one turn, they would fall back and let other units unload into me, or for the flying units, unload themselves. Tactical Objectives, only lost 7-8, but I was close to tabling him, and we were laughing the whole game because I never got one card telling me to kill a unit, as I butchered his forces.

 

 

Interesting feedback. I don't know what the new  DE codex brings yet, but a good friend of mine has been playing them for years. He's a very good player.

 

My observations over the years are that when I attempt to engage him too early in the game, because of his high mobility (usually brings 4-5 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, a couple Raiders) and characters with lethal HtH capabilities, if I wasn't careful he'd pretty much table me by Turn 2 (I even have a batrep to that effect in my crusade thread).

 

However, on the other side of the coin, when I brought more long range fire to help me degrade his mobility earlier in the game, then he  was less able to isolate elements and I either tied or beat him (there's also a batrep  about that game in my thread).

 

I bring this up because historically, DE have been the antithesis of most SM lists, and if you aren't prepared for them, they will trash you in a very effective manner. Rather quickly I might add. During several editions they were the spoiler at a lot of tournaments because they are the anti-meta list. They were very effective MEQ killers.

 

To that point, DE usually trashed a foot borne Black Tide list because they had all the tools necessary to defeat such an army. It took a willingness to adapt to that threat that determined your degree of success against them. If you just ran a bunch of guys across the table in hopes of crushing  them across the table, they'd isolate your true threats, overwhelm them with poisoned  attacks, then glide in at their leisure and finish off the rest.

 

It didn't matter what  flavor of MEQ list you brought (he could kill them all), if you brought a certain type of list and ignored the DE strengths, short of  complete dice failure it was going to be a long, very short game.

 

So I'm wondering now if you can share observations from your game:

 

1. What was the composition of his list. I'm curious what 8th DE players are interested in.

2. Outside of falling back, then shooting, what else did he do that was effective?

3. What did  you counter his strengths with? Was it termie SS leaders to tank hits?

4. Would taking some longer range firepower to de-mobilize him have had an effect on this game?

5. Did you get any of your CC monsters  to match up against any of  his? How did that go?

6. Roughly, what was your list like, in particular, how many boots on the ground did you have?

7. Did you take any armor support or dreads?

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

Cheers,

 

1. His list was 3 of those flyers with the disintegration cannons, 4+ Venoms? with units in them, and 2 hqs in one of them. Then a Homunculus and 3 of the big robo dudes, in some kind of formation that everyone in the shop give him flak for playing because its considered op. 1500 Points

2. Honestly the flyers were the most annoying thing, I didn't bring the storm wolf at 1500 points, forgetting how mobile the dark elder are, but I'm not one for list tailoring anyways, also everything that I was able to attack had toughness 5 or higher, which made small arms not so effective.

3. Termie Leaders are massive. 3+ invuln, taking a frost sword or power sword to reduce their costs makes them especially efficient. I ended up tanking tons of poison fire on the 2+ and many disintegration shots and blaster shots on 3+ invuln

4. I did have a twin lascannon on my Bjorn, and it managed to half damage a plane, sadly he got flanked and turn two was swarmed by anti tank guns, honestly I would've been better ignoring the flyers and trying to table him, since flyers don't count, and that is what I went for later. But yeah, long range stuff is key, though with all of my units, I spread out so much that I was always within charge range of something.

5. Whenever one of my guys would reach combat, Arjac, Blood Claws, They would decimate his unit, without question. 

6. My list was not fantastic haha, I originally planned a 2000 against a buddy of mine but he didn't show, and I ended up doing an off the cuff 1500 with the store worker, so it was just my 2000 minus some pretty key things. The list is 4 HQs, Arjac, 2 Chaplains, 1 Bjorn, and 6 units of Grey Hunters and Blood Claws split 50/50 Each unit has 5 marines, grey hunters take plasma and either axe or sword, and blood claws just take axe or sword, and each with a terminator leading it with shield and frost sword. then  5 man squad of Wulfen, 2 Stormshield Hammers, 2 Axes, and Leader with Claws.

7. Just bjorn, again, in the future, I'll remember to skim some troops and take the storm wolf, its kinda critical. but then again it was 1500 so take with it what you will.

[Guest Triszin]

 

Did someone say Black Templar counts as thunderwolf Cav?

 

There used to be a fantastic Black Templar heavy cavalry made from some chaos knight cavalry but I can't seem to find them anymore ... but you get the idea

 

Always loved this idea, thought there is a version with Demigryph Knights that I liked even more, can't find a picture for the life of me though.

 

or, put a templar on a custodes jetbike. =)

 

it's an intriguing idea to run templars using the wolves codex.

 

I always thought the Knight and the Hounds always ran well together.

 

Wulfen = sword brothern

thunder wolves = Templars on custodes jetbikes

fenrisian wolves = conscripts

cyber wolves = servitor bladesmen

bloodclaws = neophythes

greyslayers = line troops, after all bolter + cqc weps

wolf gaurd = retinue for your hq's

wolf guard battle leader = sheild captain

Ulric =  the emperors champion

wolf priests = chaplains + apothecaries

no runepriests

grimnar = counts as sigismund/helbretch?

 

actually:

you could take rune preists and just use them for the deny the witch rolls?

[Kisada]

I'm not familiar enough with TWC ... do their weapons/attacks/equipment seem comparable to a Templar on Jetbike?

 

I prefer when "counts as" conversions at least have equipment that can be passable as what its supposed to be