B&C Knights FAQ: For Scions of House Confused

[Clingy]

Oh. Darn. I was looking to pull the trigger on a Porphyrion but I want to get the all clear/sensible clarification from GW. Also looking at seeing if Hellverins/Arimgers are worth the bother re CP etc. Be curious to see how this Lance story plays out.

[Vel'Cona]

Oh. Darn. I was looking to pull the trigger on a Porphyrion but I want to get the all clear/sensible clarification from GW. Also looking at seeing if Hellverins/Arimgers are worth the bother re CP etc. Be curious to see how this Lance story plays out.

 

Armigers are fantastic for their points now, unfortunately the restriction on how/when/where they can generate CP is extremely troubling.  In many ways, they're better off splashing into other Imperium lists, which I think is a massive shame given their background.

[Stray]

I thought that, and admittedly I haven't fielded them yet, but I wonder how good they actually are in reality?

 

On paper, a Helverin looks pretty good. But look at the actual average performance in the chart a page back. Per turn, a Helverin will, on average, kill 3-4 guardsmen, or put 4 wounds on a Rhino. The Warglaive will put 3 wounds on the Rhino (thermal lance).

 

Now they're fast, and you can use them en mass etc, but by the time you're putting two or three on the table, you're basically paying for a Gallant, and you're getting no CP from them.

 

In practice, I have a sneaking suspicion that unless traits or strats are really shoring things up for them (and they may be), they're just not that impressive at all :/

[Charlo]

The thing about Helverins though is that even if one shot gets through it's a FULL 3 Damage. They're swingy units but have the power to be insane.

 

They aren't there to target Guardsmen, they're there to take out enemy medium armour :D

[Stray]

The thing about Helverins though is that even if one shot gets through it's a FULL 3 Damage. They're swingy units but have the power to be insane.

 

They aren't there to target Guardsmen, they're there to take out enemy medium armour

 

That's just it though, they kinda don't. 4 average wounds on a rhino, which means most of the time you're doing 3 in practice. The numbers don't lie.

 

I think I remain unconvinced. There seem to be FAR better units for the points in reality, especially as we're somewhat hamstrung by them anyway :/

[Charlo]

Mathhammer only takes you so far remember! 

[Stray]

Mathhammer only takes you so far remember! 

 

Yeah, true enough. I getcha buddy. :)

 

I guess I don't like inconsistent weapons much. You could get great performance, or you could get nothing. Most often you'll get some.

 

Luck only takes you so far too, and black cats are pre-screwed in that department :P

 

(I literally broke a mirror today too, seriously. 7 years of rolling ones!!)

[shandwen]

The thing about Helverins though is that even if one shot gets through it's a FULL 3 Damage. They're swingy units but have the power to be insane.

 

They aren't there to target Guardsmen, they're there to take out enemy medium armour :D

They are one of the most effective weapons against the banana-bikes. The AP doesn't matter due to invulns, but the three damage is wonderful.

[waaaaghlord]

Helverins have range. That and the anti air stratagem skew the pure math on their damage output. House Raven ( in a Lance after the three mandatory big Knight slots are filled ) at 7+W they have a 14" move + Advance to keep them out of range of return fire and can still shoot at full effect at 60" That Gallant and or Valiant tearing up the field will be drawing fire anyway. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

[PiñaColada]

 

Mathhammer only takes you so far remember! 

 

Yeah, true enough. I getcha buddy.

 

I guess I don't like inconsistent weapons much. You could get great performance, or you could get nothing. Most often you'll get some.

 

Luck only takes you so far too, and black cats are pre-screwed in that department

 

(I literally broke a mirror today too, seriously. 7 years of rolling ones!!)

 

Remember that a roll of 1 is an australian 6!

 

Great thread though!

I have some questions about house Vulker I guess. I already sent a mail to GW about this so maybe it'll be included in the FAQ but perhaps it's obvious enough that it can be answered here? Quoted in part: 

 

About Adamantium Knight

 

I have a few questions about exactly how that would work in some situations. Basically it all comes down to if the sentence "Wound rolls of 1, 2 or 3 made for attacks against your warlord always fail..." overrides other abilites or not and if that trait counts as a modifier or not.

 

1, Say an Eldar force has used the psychic power "doom" on the knight and are firing heavy d-scythes at it (so strength 12 weapons that would normally wound on 3+), if the first wound roll has any 3's in it, does the eldar player get to reroll those or does the warlord trait count as a modifier and as such those 3's wouldn't be able to be rerolled?

 

2, If a blood angels unit with thunder hammers (so strength 8 and would normally wound on 4+) charges the knight does the red thirst ability enable them to wound it on 3+ or 4+?

 

3, If an eldar warlock attacks the knight with a Witchblade which "always wounds on 2+", does it wound the knight on 2+ or 4+?

 

About Firestorm Protocols

 

4, Imagine I declare all my shots into two targets, one target 6" away and the other 9". I then fire the weapons on my knight at the closest target first and successfully kill it. Will the second target, which is now the closest target, benefit from the protocols? Is the trait "acrivated" when I declare my shots or does it adapt to which the closest target is?

[Clingy]

Some good questions!

[Stray]

 

 

About Firestorm Protocols

 

4, Imagine I declare all my shots into two targets, one target 6" away and the other 9". I then fire the weapons on my knight at the closest target first and successfully kill it. Will the second target, which is now the closest target, benefit from the protocols? Is the trait "acrivated" when I declare my shots or does it adapt to which the closest target is?

 

 

This was covered somewhere, I forget by who but I will try and find the source.

 

So essentially, it only triggers on the first unit. You get your bonus against the closest unit, and if you wipe them out and start shooting another, shooting continues as normal without the bonus.

 

I'll hunt down that source. I think it may have been covered by FLG? They aren't GW obviously, but they are part of the play testing group for 40K, and run the ITC so it's pretty likely to be 'authoritative' without GW themselves weighing in on the subject.

[ImperialSquishiness]

 

 

 

 

Mathhammer only takes you so far remember!

Yeah, true enough. I getcha buddy.

 

I guess I don't like inconsistent weapons much. You could get great performance, or you could get nothing. Most often you'll get some.

 

Luck only takes you so far too, and black cats are pre-screwed in that department

 

(I literally broke a mirror today too, seriously. 7 years of rolling ones!!)

Remember that a roll of 1 is an australian 6!

 

Great thread though!

I have some questions about house Vulker I guess. I already sent a mail to GW about this so maybe it'll be included in the FAQ but perhaps it's obvious enough that it can be answered here? Quoted in part:

 

About Adamantium Knight

 

I have a few questions about exactly how that would work in some situations. Basically it all comes down to if the sentence "Wound rolls of 1, 2 or 3 made for attacks against your warlord always fail..." overrides other abilites or not and if that trait counts as a modifier or not.

 

1, Say an Eldar force has used the psychic power "doom" on the knight and are firing heavy d-scythes at it (so strength 12 weapons that would normally wound on 3+), if the first wound roll has any 3's in it, does the eldar player get to reroll those or does the warlord trait count as a modifier and as such those 3's wouldn't be able to be rerolled?

 

2, If a blood angels unit with thunder hammers (so strength 8 and would normally wound on 4+) charges the knight does the red thirst ability enable them to wound it on 3+ or 4+?

 

3, If an eldar warlock attacks the knight with a Witchblade which "always wounds on 2+", does it wound the knight on 2+ or 4+?

 

About Firestorm Protocols

 

4, Imagine I declare all my shots into two targets, one target 6" away and the other 9". I then fire the weapons on my knight at the closest target first and successfully kill it. Will the second target, which is now the closest target, benefit from the protocols? Is the trait "acrivated" when I declare my shots or does it adapt to which the closest target is?

For 1) I would say it acts like negative to hit modifiers and Rerolls, you only get to reroll the hits you would have naturally failed before applying the modifier (unless Cawl is about obviously)

 

2) Unsure. Red thirst adds 1 to wound rolls, so a 3 becomes a 4. Without the exact wording to hand of RT, I would say it does. Although if the WT had wording of Unmodified wound rolls, the TH marine would need a 4.

 

3) Wounds on a 4. Witch blade/ Singing Spear wound on a 2. But the trait says wound ROLLS of 1, 2 and 3 fail

 

4) GW said themselves the closest unit is the one closest at the time you declare the shots. So you can't progressively wipe units to get the Rerolls.

[Stray]

Hmm. One or two of these are tricky. The best we're going to get in some cases without an official ruling, is to go RAW guided by common sense I feel.

 

The exact wording of the trait is as follows:

 

'Wound rolls of 1, 2, or 3 made for attacks against your Warlord always fail.'

 

The wording is pretty strong in so much as it specifies always, and it specifically calls out rolls - as Squishy mentions above. For me, unless a competing ability is worded in such a way that it should take precedence, I think the Vulker trait should trigger. As it specifically states rolls, and we know positive and negative modifiers take place after rolls for the purposes of re-rolls at least, I think they fail on the natural roll of 1,2 or 3 -  so for me, a modifier doesn't count unless worded to negate this somehow.

 

Much like the way hit rolls are worded in the BAB: 'A roll of 1 always fails...' we see virtually the same wording here. So you'd get a re-roll (if you have a re-roll ability against failed wounds) on a 1, 2, or 3, but modifiers wouldn't count - you already failed to wound because it's the natural roll the trait is worded to act on.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: I'll add the decision on the Firestorm trait, as at least two of us have heard the same thing from either GW or a reasonably  authoritative source. Feel free to weigh in if you disagree for any reason however and your evidence is better. We can always change it 

[Dusktiger]

one thing i've been trying to figure out is the number of relics a single SHD can take. 

 

now normally, you get 1 free relic in any army, then pay 1CP for a 2nd relic, or 3CP for a 3rd relic.  But most armies start off with characters that can take relics.

the Knights have their Heirlooms strategem turn a knight into a character so it can take a relic. 

 

So, in a single detachment of 3 knights, how many relics can you have? 2? or 3?

[solarisqc]

one thing i've been trying to figure out is the number of relics a single SHD can take. 

 

now normally, you get 1 free relic in any army, then pay 1CP for a 2nd relic, or 3CP for a 3rd relic.  But most armies start off with characters that can take relics.

the Knights have their Heirlooms strategem turn a knight into a character so it can take a relic. 

 

So, in a single detachment of 3 knights, how many relics can you have? 2? or 3?

 

maxof 3 knight relic

 

SHD with a lance of knight have 1 free character that can be your warlord and have your free relic

you can add 2 character(+warlord trait) for 3 CP and you can have 2 extra relic for 3 CP

 

So for 6 CP, you can have 3 character knight with 1 relic each.

[Tyriks]

 

one thing i've been trying to figure out is the number of relics a single SHD can take.

 

now normally, you get 1 free relic in any army, then pay 1CP for a 2nd relic, or 3CP for a 3rd relic. But most armies start off with characters that can take relics.

the Knights have their Heirlooms strategem turn a knight into a character so it can take a relic.

 

So, in a single detachment of 3 knights, how many relics can you have? 2? or 3?

 

maxof 3 knight relic

 

SHD with a lance of knight have 1 free character that can be your warlord and have your free relic

you can add 2 character(+warlord trait) for 3 CP and you can have 2 extra relic for 3 CP

 

So for 6 CP, you can have 3 character knight with 1 relic each.

This is not accurate. All 3 can take relics but it only costs 3cp. Not sure where you got 6cp from. The stratagem that makes them characters and gives the relics is 1cp for one or 3cp for two.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see. You don't need to use the warlord trait stratagem unless you also want to give them warlord traits. The relic stratagem makes them a character so using a different stratagem to do so is unnecessary.

[solarisqc]

 

 

one thing i've been trying to figure out is the number of relics a single SHD can take.

 

now normally, you get 1 free relic in any army, then pay 1CP for a 2nd relic, or 3CP for a 3rd relic. But most armies start off with characters that can take relics.

the Knights have their Heirlooms strategem turn a knight into a character so it can take a relic.

 

So, in a single detachment of 3 knights, how many relics can you have? 2? or 3?

maxof 3 knight relic

 

SHD with a lance of knight have 1 free character that can be your warlord and have your free relic

you can add 2 character(+warlord trait) for 3 CP and you can have 2 extra relic for 3 CP

 

So for 6 CP, you can have 3 character knight with 1 relic each.

This is not accurate. All 3 can take relics but it only costs 3cp. Not sure where you got 6cp from. The stratagem that makes them characters and gives the relics is 1cp for one or 3cp for two.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see. You don't need to use the warlord trait stratagem unless you also want to give them warlord traits. The relic stratagem makes them a character so using a different stratagem to do so is unnecessary.

 

 

My mistake, i read the relic stratagem too fast and forgot about the character upgrade :) the good part is i just learn both the relic and warlord stratagem give the CHARACTER keyword when you use them.

 

So 1/3 CP give 1/2 extra relic and CHARACTER keyword and 1/3 CP give 1/2 extra warlord trait and CHARACTER keyword.

 

I just realise we can have a full SHD of 5 knight character (your warlord with a relic, 2 with warlord trait and 2 with relic).

[Master Avoghai]

I have avquestion regarding Raven trait as it seems to have 2 readings

 

1- the heavy weapons are considered as Assault and therefore don’t suffer from the -1 penalty when advancing thanks to the raven’s special rule.

 

2- the heavy weapons are considered as assault weapons BUT only native assault weapons can ignore the penalty when advancing.

 

Which is correct? :unsure:

[Charlo]

1.

 

If it was 2 the trait would be garbage and useless :)

[Tyriks]

1 is correct. Check that against the wording of traits like Sautekh Dynasty and such to see how they word 2.

 

If it was 2, Raven would be worthless. They can fire a shoulder mounted melta (if they have one) and nothing else while advancing. Basically not changing anything.

[Master Avoghai]

Actually useless no

 

The point 2 would just mean that you could advance and shoot with the heavy weapon but you’d suffer from the -1 penalty... Which is still a bonus comparing with an heavy which cannot advance and shot at all...

[Stray]

It's irrelevant really. Discussing the semantics of how it would have worked if it were different is fun, but not very useful ultimately.

 

All we need to keep in mind is how the trait works:

 

All Heavy weapons are treated as assault weapons when you advance, and anything that counts as an assault weapon suffers no penalty for firing while advancing.

 

So shoot, shoot and shoot some more! :)

 

(The codex author states implicitly that Heavy weapons don't suffer a penalty using the house Raven tradition in his Interview stream: 30 mins, 20 secs: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268131152)

[PiñaColada]

What's weird is that if you're merely walking with armigers you suffer a negative -1 to hit with the heavy stubbers though, correct?

[Stray]

What's weird is that if you're merely walking with armigers you suffer a negative -1 to hit with the heavy stubbers though, correct?

 

The tradition only triggers if you advance, so yes. If Armigers don't have a way of otherwise mitigating a move and fire heavy weapons penalty, you're right PC - they get more accurate when they run :P