mc warhammer Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 i'd be interested in seeing a primarch win over one he doesn't think he can Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 i'd be interested in seeing a primarch win over one he doesn't think he can I'd like to think that outside the psychotic ones, a Primarchs self awareness would give them an ability to be honest about their odds. I'm not about to trust Fulgrim but Corax? Khan? Rob? If they say there is a tier 1 level of duelists, I'll trust that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 yeah, i'd say they'd all be good at assessing the facts but that humility or fear (like rogal with curse in lightning tower) may cloud that ability. and even if they are somewhat correct on paper, i'd like to see a situation where they surprise themselves eg. corax is certain he can't defeat angron, but against all odds, he pulls it off. just. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 I reiterate...why do people think the confrontation between Corax and Curze counts as a "fight"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 yeah, i'd say they'd all be good at assessing the facts but that humility or fear (like rogal with curse in lightning tower) may cloud that ability. and even if they are somewhat correct on paper, i'd like to see a situation where they surprise themselves eg. corax is certain he can't defeat angron, but against all odds, he pulls it off. just. The rage at that would eclipse....everything ever printed. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 yeah, i'd say they'd all be good at assessing the facts but that humility or fear (like rogal with curse in lightning tower) may cloud that ability. and even if they are somewhat correct on paper, i'd like to see a situation where they surprise themselves eg. corax is certain he can't defeat angron, but against all odds, he pulls it off. just. The rage at that would eclipse....everything ever printed. ha...as in fan rage? bring it on Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 For sure it would. It would make the outcry over Prospero Burns, or 'but dad loved them' Master of Mankind look even more like a 2 year old's tantrum. Angron, losing to Corax. It would be apoplectic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 i know you're not suggesting this, but fan outcry doesn't seem to a good reason not to write a (potentially) interesting story and i'm not saying i want to see that particular match up, only that one like it would be of interest Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Even more if you add those three magic words: "By Matt Ward". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Given that the Primarchs were created explicitly to lead the armies of the great crusade, and just happen to be really good at smashing foes themselves, I’ve always like pondering which primarch is more effective at doing just that - leading their armies. I suppose when it comes to legions vs legions, there often comes a point where primarchs must counter primarchs (although there are examples where this is not the case, Night of the Wolf, Furries in a position to execute Anger Man, Alpha’s nearly getting the better of Roby-G) but that’s what is so lovely about the HH as a setting, we get to see how primarchs and their legions stack up against each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 If you're talking field commanders, the FW fluff paints Horus (of course), Mortarion and I think Ferrus too as being among the very best frontline leaders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 If you're talking field commanders, the FW fluff paints Horus (of course), Mortarion and I think Ferrus too as being among the very best frontline leaders. I liked how the in-universe author of Betrayal just casually dropped the bit about Mortarion quietly being one of the most talented field commanders in the imperium. It was nice partially because he had (and has still) less consistent development than he deserves, but also because of the surprise. I think this is important, that primarchs' characters and 30k in general should still have the capacity to surprise us. It doesn't have to be big stuff like Guilliman setting up a side-empire but there ought to be more to the main players than could be conveyed in an IA article or whatever. Surprise is worthwhile and if pulled off well will be remembered fondly. So the same applies to Lorgar vs. Corax in The First Heretic. As a worked-through fight scene or a larger-than-life clash of ideals, it's not as good as Angron/Lorgar vs Guilliman or Mortarion vs the Khan. It's exciting and short but it seems to have seriously struck folks at the time and still changes a lot of the perceptions of Corax among both veterans and new readers, at least going by forum reactions. No one expected Corax to be a killing machine. In fairness probably no one would have completely ruled him out against Lorgar but then neither primarch would have featured in these speculative matchups before The First Heretic anyway, they weren't really a big enough deal. The shock, appropriately mirrored in Argel Tal's earlier shock at what a solo primarch could do to a company of astartes, is something to be valued. Stops Corax being pigeonholed as simply 'the stealth primarch'. Obviously the fight was also a crowning moment in the book for Lorgar's feelings about his role in the heresy, his acceptance of his destiny and his respect for his adoptive father as set against his feelings for his sons' lives. It's more than solid on that. But the surprise value, that's something we can lose when we're waiting on a book as 'the one where the Lion finally finishes the fight with Curze'. Dorn vs Alpharius was exciting because we didn't see it coming. This is aside from the question of death; I don't think every primarch fight needs to have a death to have consequences or that they necessarily lose tension because no one dies. I'm looking forward to the Khan and daemon Mortarion's eventual Terran rematch for what the dialogue will surely be like. But make a primarch fight into a rote expectation, making it simply what we expected, is a terrible thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 A primarch's brain is 1,000,000 times more valuable than his sword arm...not enough material tries to highlight this, I think Gathering Storm glossed over this, and I think Unremembered Empire touched upon the power of Guilliman's mind Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 If you're talking field commanders, the FW fluff paints Horus (of course), Mortarion and I think Ferrus too as being among the very best frontline leaders. I liked how the in-universe author of Betrayal just casually dropped the bit about Mortarion quietly being one of the most talented field commanders in the imperium. It was nice partially because he had (and has still) less consistent development than he deserves, but also because of the surprise. I think this is important, that primarchs' characters and 30k in general should still have the capacity to surprise us. It doesn't have to be big stuff like Guilliman setting up a side-empire but there ought to be more to the main players than could be conveyed in an IA article or whatever. Surprise is worthwhile and if pulled off well will be remembered fondly. So the same applies to Lorgar vs. Corax in The First Heretic. As a worked-through fight scene or a larger-than-life clash of ideals, it's not as good as Angron/Lorgar vs Guilliman or Mortarion vs the Khan. It's exciting and short but it seems to have seriously struck folks at the time and still changes a lot of the perceptions of Corax among both veterans and new readers, at least going by forum reactions. No one expected Corax to be a killing machine. In fairness probably no one would have completely ruled him out against Lorgar but then neither primarch would have featured in these speculative matchups before The First Heretic anyway, they weren't really a big enough deal. The shock, appropriately mirrored in Argel Tal's earlier shock at what a solo primarch could do to a company of astartes, is something to be valued. Stops Corax being pigeonholed as simply 'the stealth primarch'. Obviously the fight was also a crowning moment in the book for Lorgar's feelings about his role in the heresy, his acceptance of his destiny and his respect for his adoptive father as set against his feelings for his sons' lives. It's more than solid on that. But the surprise value, that's something we can lose when we're waiting on a book as 'the one where the Lion finally finishes the fight with Curze'. Dorn vs Alpharius was exciting because we didn't see it coming. This is aside from the question of death; I don't think every primarch fight needs to have a death to have consequences or that they necessarily lose tension because no one dies. I'm looking forward to the Khan and daemon Mortarion's eventual Terran rematch for what the dialogue will surely be like. But make a primarch fight into a rote expectation, making it simply what we expected, is a terrible thing. Corax fought Lorgar in 1st Heretic ? If you play 30k then you know Alan Bligh did a fantastic job writing rules for the primarchs that accurately portray their background and let me tell you Corax is no slouch either . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5112969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 He slashed his face up, the only scars that Lorgar refuses to heal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 What scene was it? I don't remember Corax in First Heretic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 The same scene with Curze? During the Massacre, Corax attacks Lorgar, who doesn't really fight back, as he believes it's his fate to die there, so gets fairly sliced up, including his face. Curze then swoops in to save Lorgar, they have their stand-off, and Corax flies away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 A primarch's brain is 1,000,000 times more valuable than his sword arm...not enough material tries to highlight this, I think Gathering Storm glossed over this, and I think Unremembered Empire touched upon the power of Guilliman's mind That’s what I was trying to get at earlier. These were absolutely monsters in combat, but they were meant to lead armies, not butcher battalions like Achilles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 What scene was it? I don't remember Corax in First Heretic. So the "fight" which you've been touting as a definite Corax win if fisticuffs were to occur, you didn't notice? Because it was right there when Corax jabbed his talons into Lorgars chest Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Now that's entertaining. ;) How was the Horus vs. Russ fight handled? Eager to read that one, as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 @Lord_Caerolian Lorgar definitely fights back hard when Corax attacks him. Lorgar, wielding his mace and alight with his psychic nimbus, cracks open Corax's chest armour and shatters one of Corax's lightning claws. Corax is simply the better warrior (at that time) and ends up impaling Lorgar. Then Curze interferes and saves Lorgar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 The same scene with Curze? During the Massacre, Corax attacks Lorgar, who doesn't really fight back, as he believes it's his fate to die there, so gets fairly sliced up, including his face. Curze then swoops in to save Lorgar, they have their stand-off, and Corax flies away. Lorgar is fighting hard (he reshapes Corvus' face with his forehead while he's skewered on the Raven's talon), he's simply outmatched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I was thinking the scene was in an earlier novel - I remember but it’s displaced for some reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 My bad guys, it's been ages since I've read that. All I remember is that Lorgar believed he was fated to die there, and that his 'cheating fate' in surviving is what made him far more confident afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Damn Curze ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348327-primarch-fights-the-good-and-the-bad/page/3/#findComment-5113830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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