Leman Russ.. Returning as a Daemon Primarch?

[BloodWolves]

I was just looking around and I found an article that states that Leman Russ could return as a Daemon Primarch.. now the datasheet I read is most likely fan made..

 

But it begs the question.. "What if?"

 

If he does.. does the entire Space Wolves Chapter follow..

 

Or, does a Civil War arise?

[PeteySödes]

100% fan made. Nothing to see here.

 

Never going to happen.

[Wispy]

yeah it's fake.

 

while that would be a dramatic and shocking story development, it doesn't sell a hotly desired model to the people who hotly desire it. 

[Ranulf]

Nope.

 

What is concerning is the possibility of Russ returning as a Wulfen at the whim of a marketing department. 

 

Now that would get the blood up.

 

-Ran

[Nrthstar]

Nope.

 

What is concerning is the possibility of Russ returning as a Wulfen at the whim of a marketing department. 

 

Now that would get the blood up.

 

-Ran

 

You say whim of a marketing department, when a good third of us here at the fang could easily see it happening because of fluff.  Personally, I'm up for anything.  I don't chain myself to what I think the game (and world beyond) should be, but experience the ride.  A Stagnant story is boring.

 But no, there will not a be a Daemon Prince Russ.

[Karack Blackstone]

No.

 

And, while I know this is fake, I do know one thing.

 

The first Loyalist Imperial Chapter to hunt a Daemon Primarch Russ down would be his own sons. And, they'd do so happily, gleefully, even.

[Ranulf]

 

Nope.

 

What is concerning is the possibility of Russ returning as a Wulfen at the whim of a marketing department. 

 

Now that would get the blood up.

 

-Ran

 

You say whim of a marketing department, when a good third of us here at the fang could easily see it happening because of fluff.  Personally, I'm up for anything.  I don't chain myself to what I think the game (and world beyond) should be, but experience the ride.  A Stagnant story is boring.

 But no, there will not a be a Daemon Prince Russ.

 

 

So, you don't chain yourself to what you think the game should be,.... provided it doesn't clash too much with what you think the game should be. 

 

To play devil's advocate - why not a Daemon Prince Russ?

 

Back when I was modding this part of the B&C in the early 2000's a large majority of the members present said that the Wulfen would never be a thing either.

 

Then Codex: Eye of Terror came out... 

 

-Ran

[PeteySödes]

I'll bite. I think we'd need to clarify Deamon/ Deamon Prince/ Mutated. 

 

The why not of deamon PRINCE Russ is that it's just a complete 180 for him to have made a deal with the devil and gone traitor. It just stinks of shock factor bad storytelling. That's not even touching the sales seppuku they'd be commiting in the eyes of 95% of the Space Wolf playerbase.

 

"Deamon" if were purely a label for the =I= to have a reason to be pissed at Russ because it turns out he's gone wulfen is more plausible. Theres even precedent of us being pretty sketchy about keeping the existing wulfen on lock.

 

I wouldnt automatically write off Wulfen/(deamon) Russ but I'd be pretty crushed if they tried to sell him as turning traitor. There's just no reasonable justification for it.

[BloodWolves]

.. i was just wondering. Sheesh some people get riled up as if they were Grey Hunters themselves. I just saw an article and thought it would be a different take. The Imperium does need a bit of a new story to it. It would be so impactful to the story. I know to some, that this move would suck but sometimes stories dont have a happy ending. But i do agree that having Russ turn Chaos would hurt the Space Marines as there are more Chaos Primarchs *currently* vs Loyal ones. Balance is needed. Roboute cant save it all on his own.

[Sete]

Yes! :P

And Perty will come back as loyalist lol.

[Guest]

It been brought up a couple times already in the past couple months on many websites/forums. It like saying "hey let's have sangy come back as a Darmon Prince of Khorne, or Dorn as Chaos Undivided replacing Horus. You are going to get fan lashing back, because you are taking a loved and loyal primarch that has never at any point attempted to go traitor and turning them traitor on a dumb "what if" idea.

 

To what purpose what that do for GW, what purpose what that feed the storyline? The answer is simple and rather obvious, nothing. I believe I am familiar with the guy who wrote the Daemon Prince Russ stat sheet, and he posted on FB that he was upset the 13th/Bulvye didn't return as chaos and is a "Dark Wolf" player. It's basically a bitter person who seems to spread his hate at not being able to have his cake (chaos SW) and eat it too (Daemon Prince Russ).

 

Edit: at most we will see a change to a loyal primarch that reflects their sons. Dorn as a avenging Crusader like the Black Templars, Sangy as a Flesh Tearers? Russ as a stoic old man Russ, like Bjorn and Ulrik.

[Sete]

I'm half expecting Dorn to be traitor if he comes back. I could see this GW doing that dumb :cuss.

 

I don't believe Russ will be coming as traitor. But if "Odin" Russ comes back, he will bring some knowledge with him. Like Odin when was hanging at the world tree. (Been reading Nordic myths. Nordic gods are :cusss")

[Ranulf]

I'll bite. I think we'd need to clarify Deamon/ Deamon Prince/ Mutated. 

 

The why not of deamon PRINCE Russ is that it's just a complete 180 for him to have made a deal with the devil and gone traitor. It just stinks of shock factor bad storytelling. That's not even touching the sales seppuku they'd be commiting in the eyes of 95% of the Space Wolf playerbase.

 

"Deamon" if were purely a label for the =I= to have a reason to be pissed at Russ because it turns out he's gone wulfen is more plausible. Theres even precedent of us being pretty sketchy about keeping the existing wulfen on lock.

 

I wouldnt automatically write off Wulfen/(deamon) Russ but I'd be pretty crushed if they tried to sell him as turning traitor. There's just no reasonable justification for it.

 

Having Russ turn traitor is an enormous stretch I'll grant you - but there has been the odd bit of ridiculousness where certain GW writers have forged new narratives in the past. 

 

Imagine for a moment all of the Great Companies that have gone renegade n the last 10,000 years - represented by the blank stone in the Grand Annulus. Russ crosses paths with his fallen sons time and time again whilst prowling around inside the Eye - sons that were once charged with the hunting down and killing of traitors and oath breakers during the Heresy.

 

That's a lot of rage to deal with. One that a certain Chaos god might seek to grasp hold of. Rage, wrath, martial pride, betrayal. It's a heady mix, and it wouldn't be the first time Russ has been caught in a trap set by the forces of Chaos.

 

But yeah,... it's a stretch.

 

Any return will undoubtedly draw the attention and/or ire of the Inquisition, regardless of the physical state of the Primarch, I feel that's a given. 

 

Personally my hope is for a returned Russ, untainted apart from 10,000 years of scar tissue and battle damage. Maybe with a few new greys in the blonde mane.

 

-Ran

[Wispy]

While I appreciate it would we quite the dramatic and shocking twist, but when it comes to characters, GW should be striving to meet expectations, not subvert them. Whether there will be a 40k version of Leman Russ is an open question, but many Space Wolves customers and collectors are expecting it to happen and happen soon. I know I would like to add a 40k Leman Russ to my collection.  For him to go traitor, It would not be a well received as a creative choice and there would be a lot of backlash. 

 

The question is who would a traitor Russ model  even be for? Space Wolves fans want a loyalist Russ. People with World Eater armies are expecting Angron.

[Guest]

While I appreciate it would we quite the dramatic and shocking twist, but when it comes to characters, GW should be striving to meet expectations, not subvert them. Whether there will be a 40k version of Leman Russ is an open question, but many Space Wolves customers and collectors are expecting it to happen and happen soon. I know I would like to add a 40k Leman Russ to my collection.  For him to go traitor, It would not be a well received as a creative choice and there would be a lot of backlash. 

 

The question is who would a traitor Russ model  even be for? Space Wolves fans want a loyalist Russ. People with World Eater armies are expecting Angron.

It's for that tiny community that play dark wolves/blood wolves/*dark theme word* wolves. They are pretty vocal about Russ turning traitor.

[TiguriusX]

I could see Russ and the Wolves going renegade/independent but not full chaos.

 

We basically took that path already after Armageddon

[bluescope]

In Wolfbane, Russ realized the nature of Primarchs. He knew they were made of Warp power. He still chose to be loyal to the imperium during HH. It's ridiculous that Russ turned into daemon suddenly.

 

I became a SW player because they respect humanity in 40K. They fight for civilians' honour no matter enemy is chaos or imperium force. Our Primarch would become a slave of dark gods. In my opinion, this idea is as bad as Warhammer EOT. 

[Ranulf]

In Wolfbane, Russ realized the nature of Primarchs. He knew they were made of Warp power. He still chose to be loyal to the imperium during HH. It's ridiculous that Russ turned into daemon suddenly.

 

I became a SW player because they respect humanity in 40K. They fight for civilians' honour no matter enemy is chaos or imperium force. Our Primarch would become a slave of dark gods. In my opinion, this idea is as bad as Warhammer EOT. 

 

To play devil's advocate again...

 

It wouldn't be a sudden fall to Chaos - Russ has been off on the Hunt for 10,000 years. Who knows what's been going on over those ten millennia. Guilliman was asleep for the same period of time and look at how the Imperium changed in that time. Secular and enlightened to repressive, religious and dogmatic - he got quite a shock on the wake up and questioned the point of fighting the Heresy if the current Imperium was the prize of 'winning' the war.

 

Providing Russ hasn't been sleeping it off for 10,000 birthdays, who's to say where his allegiances now lie. 

 

In regards to the virtues of the Space Wolves - consider the development of the Legion/Chapter over the timeline. The moniker of 'The Rout' given during the earliest days of the Great Crusade was not given without merit. Even under Russ there was a well-deserved reputation for savagery. The events of the wars for Armageddon (10K years later) certainly painted the Wolves in a different light - a focus on defending common humanity and the preservation of life - but these could be seen as reflection of the exemplary leaders of the time, namely the Great Wolf Logan Grimnar.    

 

Now Russ on the other hand was still on a development curve when he wandered off into the wide blue yonder - his self-awareness was growing and he was developing beyond the portrayal of just being the Emperor's executioner and dog of war, but he was hardly a 'white knight' or paragon of virtue. 

 

It's the complexity of the character of the VI Legion and their primarch that makes them interesting. One of Russ's greatest strengths during the Crusade and the Heresy was his fierce and unstinting loyalty to the Emperor of mankind and the will to do whatever was asked of him by his father. 

 

Once the remembrancers would have said the same of Horus Lupercal.

 

Food for thought.

 

-Ran

[Kasper_Hawser]

erasing my post due to being too judgemental and emotional. But not due to me changing my opinion, my original opinion still stays, just won't voice them to avoid offending others.

[Ranulf]

 

Sigh, i really want to strangle the idiot who first posted that fake news. As if Santa Grimnar jokes aren't bad enough, now we have to deal with this nonsense from those who don't know or care to know about the Space Wolves.

 

I'd be wary about using such a statement as a counter-argument. I started collecting Wolves when the 2nd Ed Codex was released in '94, some 24-odd years ago. For years I moderated the Space Wolves forum here on the B&C, as such I'm hardly a disinterested party. 

 

Oh for the love of God, no no no no no no no, why the heck are we bringing this up? Sorry don't mean to shut down you Bloodwolves, but this is really a sour topic you are bringing up.

 

Actually I can identify quite a few distasteful topics that keep being bandied about by people whose grasp of the canon is a little too loose. Sadly those people include GW themselves who can really do a number on their own characters and stories, like what happened to Warhammer Fantasy End Times.

 

It's a reasonable discussion to have and has nothing to do with 'grasp of canon'. In the last few years GW writers have shown that they are willing to engage in storyline progression. 

 

Has it been for the best? That's a matter for debate - I loathe a lot of the direction taken with 40K (and I won't even start with End Times) but that's the nature of the creative process. Passionate fans of the genre have to release that they don't own it and just because they might not like how the setting/characters evolves doesn't mean that it's wrong. 

 

As for Russ - as I've previously stated - I'm hoping for a loyalist return. The established fiction leans heavily towards a loyalist return. I agree wholeheartedly with the viewpoint that Wispy stated earlier - from a marketing perspective it would make no sense to release Russ as part of a traitor faction as it would completely miss the target demographic. 

 

However, fan forums exist for the purpose of discussion, even the murky grey-areas that are slim possibilities at best.

 

-Ran

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sigh, very well Ranulf. But my opinion still stands, although I will remove my previous post due to being a tad too emotional. You are right of course that the canon is fluid, and we do not own the franchise. Nevertheless, my opinion still stands but it is my opinion, I do not seek to force it on others.

[Jackalwolf]

No. No to all. 0 chance, 0 sense and I'll fight oiled and naked whoever states otherwise.

[Dantay VI]

 

In Wolfbane, Russ realized the nature of Primarchs. He knew they were made of Warp power. He still chose to be loyal to the imperium during HH. It's ridiculous that Russ turned into daemon suddenly.

 

I became a SW player because they respect humanity in 40K. They fight for civilians' honour no matter enemy is chaos or imperium force. Our Primarch would become a slave of dark gods. In my opinion, this idea is as bad as Warhammer EOT. 

 

To play devil's advocate again...

 

It wouldn't be a sudden fall to Chaos - Russ has been off on the Hunt for 10,000 years. Who knows what's been going on over those ten millennia. Guilliman was asleep for the same period of time and look at how the Imperium changed in that time. Secular and enlightened to repressive, religious and dogmatic - he got quite a shock on the wake up and questioned the point of fighting the Heresy if the current Imperium was the prize of 'winning' the war.

 

Providing Russ hasn't been sleeping it off for 10,000 birthdays, who's to say where his allegiances now lie. 

 

In regards to the virtues of the Space Wolves - consider the development of the Legion/Chapter over the timeline. The moniker of 'The Rout' given during the earliest days of the Great Crusade was not given without merit. Even under Russ there was a well-deserved reputation for savagery. The events of the wars for Armageddon (10K years later) certainly painted the Wolves in a different light - a focus on defending common humanity and the preservation of life - but these could be seen as reflection of the exemplary leaders of the time, namely the Great Wolf Logan Grimnar.    

 

Now Russ on the other hand was still on a development curve when he wandered off into the wide blue yonder - his self-awareness was growing and he was developing beyond the portrayal of just being the Emperor's executioner and dog of war, but he was hardly a 'white knight' or paragon of virtue. 

 

It's the complexity of the character of the VI Legion and their primarch that makes them interesting. One of Russ's greatest strengths during the Crusade and the Heresy was his fierce and unstinting loyalty to the Emperor of mankind and the will to do whatever was asked of him by his father. 

 

Once the remembrancers would have said the same of Horus Lupercal.

 

Food for thought.

 

-Ran

 

 

 

Was Russ still on a development curve though?

 

Bear in mind that he did not leave the chapter until around 197 years after the Emperors internment on the Golden Throne, which gives him almost 2 centuries to develop. he had already reformed the legion into a chapter and had started to change its identity, this was furthered by Bjorn running the chapter before he became a dreadnought.

 

Magnus also implies in Battle of the Fang that he knows where Russ is, 2 millenia later, I think it is around the time he snaps the back of Russ' statue

 

We also do not know where Russ is.... I believe there were vague mentions in previous codexes or articles which said he may be in the EoT or he could be a grey cloaked wanderer who appears from time to time helping the imperium when things are dire. This last part is from memory and could be wrong. Another vague rumour (which may have been fanon, not canon) is that Russ was captured in the Eye, and had been imprisoned by Magnus (which could be why Magnus knows/knew where Russ was).

 

If Russ was imprisoned by Magnus, who is to say that Russ would come back to the Imperium as a wulfen, released by Magnus so the imperium could see Russ' "true face"? While not a daemon, tto the average citizen he would certainly appear daemonic.

 

If he has been in the warp exclusively, he is likely to have no knowledge of the changes wrought on the imperium as he knew it. I imagine his first port of call would be Fenris, to find out what has been happening. He already knew about the High Lords, and the Emps internment etc, I am not sure how far along the ministorum was at the time of his departure.

 

Also "wolf at the door"  shows the Wolves as a defender of humanity. Aiding the humans against the Dark eldar raiders (even though they had orders to depart for the great muster an delayed to help the humans). They only turned executioner when the people refused to join the imperium., so becoming protectors is not too much of a stretch for them.

 

Lastly just because he has been gone for 10,000 years in Imperial terms, does not mean that 10,000 years have passed in the warp... 

 

I have started rambling now......

[Guest Triszin]

Oh, this old bunk rumor.

 

Now, never going to happen

[Nrthstar]

Ranulf, let's play devil's advocate again then, if you are willing to believe that Russ could have been turned to chaos due to his time in the warp, why do you believe that a Wulfen Russ would only be because of a marketing department whim?  It would make just as much sense that his inner nature/curse would come out due to his time in the warp?