Kill Team Tactica: Adeptus Astartes

[SaintToad]

Morning, guys. I’ve enjoyed the content on Bolter & Chainsword for a while now and decided to sign up and post something. I figured that since Elites is set to come and upset the apple cart for my brave Astartes, I’d offer a link to a tactical guide I’ve been preparing while it’s still relevant.

 

https://toadchapel.com/2019/04/27/introducing-kill-team-command-academy

 

OVERVIEW: https://toadchapel.com/2019/04/28/command-academy-astartes/

 

UNITS: https://toadchapel.com/2019/05/11/command-academy-astartes-units/

 

You’ll be able to see my thoughts on The Astartes as a faction, Space Marine units and wargear, and a bit of strategic reflection as well.

I look forward to sharing ideas with some of you in the future.

Edited May 18, 2019 by SaintToad

[Disruptor_fe404]

I've just noticed that the Grav-Chute Descent tactic allows Reivers to Deep Strike without actual grav-chutes.

 

Think I'll give this a go.

[Berzul]

So, 125 points for elites...

 

How is this? For a kind of fluffy matched play team of Dark Angels.

 

Tactical Sergeant (Leader) with a Combi Plasma

 

Tactical Marine (Comms)

Tactical Marine Gunner with a Plasma Gun

Tacticam Marine

Tactical Marine

 

Terminator Gunner with Assault Cannon

Company Veteran with Chainsword and Combat Shield (Combat)

 

Its a tactical squad (5 marines with 1 combi and one special). Being Dark Angels, they are full of grim resolve and quite 'tactical'; with a comms guy to coordinate the team of plasmas as they hunt for priority targets, and with a couple of bodies to serve as firing support and to head for mission objectives.

 

They come supported by a Deathwing gunner equipped to clear hordes, Space Hulk Style; and a Company Veteran as a melee specialist, like a 'greenwing knight' meant to to engage against close combat specialists.

[MasterDeath]

Seems like a rounded list for a friendly game. I assume the Plasma Gunner is a Sniper? You are missing one Specialist. A Medic could be nice.

[Berzul]

Oh, I'd make the Terminator a Heavy. Assault cannons are short ranged... Gotta keep him mobile.

 

If not, yeah, the plasma gunner would be a sniper.

[Warmachine90]

I'm thinking about a melee Astartes list. Any ideas or is it even possible?

 

I'm starting with Kill Team, so Vanilla without expansions first.

[Berzul]

Seems like a rounded list for a friendly game. I assume the Plasma Gunner is a Sniper? You are missing one Specialist. A Medic could be nice.

Im thinking of making two teams. A 125 point variant and a 200 point variant for commanders.

 

125 points would be

 

Tactical Sergeant with Combi Plasma (Leader)

 

Tactical Gunner with Plasma Gun

Tactical Marine (Comms)

Tactical Marine

Tactical Marine

 

Terminator Gunner with Assault Cannon (Heavy)

Veteran Sergeant with Combat Shield, Chainsword and Plasma Pistol (Combat)

 

Then, when taking it to 200 points id:

 

1) downgrade the pistol on the Veteran Sergeant to a Grav Pistol,

2) make the Plasma Gunner a Sniper imstead of making the Terminator a Heavy,

3) add a Primaris Lieutenant with Master Crafted Boltgun (Strategist, Advisor, Tactical Planner) to tag along the team of 2 plasmas and a Comms guy.

[Panzer]

I'm thinking about a melee Astartes list. Any ideas or is it even possible?

 

I'm starting with Kill Team, so Vanilla without expansions first.

That's not really a thing without Elites unless you are happy with just Reivers with combat blades and a Leader with a power weapon. That's far from being a strong list though.

[thewarriorhunter]

Yeah Astartes have no good CC. The only way to get any AP in CC is with an Intercessor Sgt, and IMO if you do that he needs the auto bolt rifle and Combat specialist. That way he can advance and shoot if he's not charging and then has 4 -3 AP attacks.

[Berzul]

If you consider veterans through elites, you can start adding a lot more close combat into the list, though.

[SaintToad]

In the entry for Terminators, it states that a Terminator or Terminator Gunner May exchange its power fist for a chainfist. In the wargear list, though, it says chainfists are Space Wolves only.

This seems odd, as the many other options for Space Wolf-only wargear are all listed under a separate entry.

What do we think about this? Typo or inconsistent rules writing?

Edited May 22, 2019 by SaintToad

[SaintToad]

Before I build it & paint it, nobody sees a rules reason I can’t put a plasma cannon on a (single) Company Veteran using the Dark Angels special rule which lets me take an item from the heavy weapons list, do they? Edited May 22, 2019 by SaintToad

[Berzul]

Before I build it & paint it, nobody sees a rules reason I can’t put a plasma cannon on a (single) Company Veteran using the Dark Angels special rule which lets me take an item from the heavy weapons list, do they?

Also, before I build it & paint it, nobody sees a rules reason I can’t put a plasma cannon on a (single) Company Veteran using the Dark Angels special rule which lets me take an item from the heavy weapons list, do they?

I don't.

 

Rules seem to allow it very clearly.

 

You can include up to 4 company veterans ina Dark Angels Kill Team, and one of them can have a Heavy Weapon.

 

So, could include just one guy, and give him a Plasma Cannon. Yeah.

[Panzer]

Yeah no problem with that.

 

About the Chainfist ... write GW a mail and ask before building something you might regret. So the usual procedure. ^^

[Berzul]

Just to be clear, that would mean your entire team would be Dark Angels, though. Your question kinda gives me the vibe that you mean taking ONE dark angels model, so s t unlock the Plasma Cannon.

[SaintToad]

No, DA for the whole team, just one cannon. Thanks, guys. You’ve confirmed what I thought about that.

 

I’m not sure if I’ll send the question about the terminator loadout, since I have no immediate plans to make one, I was just curious. If I do send an email, I’ll post the response here (as I hope you’ll do if you beat me to it).

[Stoic Raptor]

In the entry for Terminators, it states that a Terminator or Terminator Gunner May exchange its power fist for a chainfist. In the wargear list, though, it says chainfists are Space Wolves only.

This seems odd, as the many other options for Space Wolf-only wargear are all listed under a separate entry.

What do we think about this? Typo or inconsistent rules writing?

 

Neither.  The wargear lists don't override the datasheets and they never have - not in 40K and definitely not in Kill Team (re: all those people who thought Deathwatch could suddenly buy bolt rifles etc.)

The particular example to which you refer is because of the bullet point that allows a SW Terminator to replace their storm bolter with any of the weapons on the Terminator Weapons list.

Any Terminator can replace their power fist with a chain fist.  Sure, not many times when someone might want to do so, but it's likely to allow players to use models they've outfitted to be Codex-compliant for 40K games.

 

Usually when a rule doesn't make sense, it just needs to be looked at a little more clearly.  

[SaintToad]

The datasheet for terminators it says SW can take an item from the terminator weapons list. On that list it says SW can’t take a relic blade. So... they can take them?

The same applies to the captain in terminator armor, for whom the relic blade is more appropriate.

 

I’m not saying your interpretation of the rule is incorrect. In fact I think you’re right. But I still find the book confusing on this point.

[Panzer]

The datasheet for terminators it says SW can take an item from the terminator weapons list. On that list it says SW can’t take a relic blade. So... they can take them?

The same applies to the captain in terminator armor, for whom the relic blade is more appropriate.

 

I’m not saying your interpretation of the rule is incorrect. In fact I think you’re right. But I still find the book confusing on this point.

 

That's just the normal wording it has always been. If the list says a unit can't take it then it can't. Just ignore the list entry when looking at the list with that unit. Otherwise GW would have to print multiple lists that are 90% the same for each unit that has slightly different options or explicitly write "except for weapon X, weapon Y and weapon Z" every single time. Both would be ridiculous when there's this very easy solution.

Edited May 23, 2019 by sfPanzer

[SaintToad]

Just ignore the list entry when looking at the list with that unit.

I don’t know what this means.

 

I brought up the example of the relic blade because you said the list never overrides the datasheet. The datasheet doesn’t say that SW can’t take the relic blade. Can they? If not, then the list overrides the datasheet, unless I’m missing something.

 

The power sword, maul, and axe all say SW only, and it means precisely that. The chainfist says SW only and means, apparently, ‘everyone can take this, except in the case of replacing your storm bolter, as is perfectly clear from the datasheet’.

 

I’m not saying you’re wrong. You seem very confident you’re right, and I’m prepared to yield to your experience. I’m certainly not going to keep going back and forth about it. But I still find it confusing, as did a few others. You’re not going to convince me that writing ‘Space Wolves only’ beside a weapon that any faction can take is an elegant solution to anything, though.

Edited May 23, 2019 by SaintToad

[Panzer]

 

Just ignore the list entry when looking at the list with that unit.

I don’t know what this means.

 

I brought up the example of the relic blade because you said the list never overrides the datasheet. The datasheet doesn’t say that SW can’t take the relic blade. Can they? If not, then the list overrides the datasheet, unless I’m missing something.

 

The power sword, maul, and axe all say SW only, and it means precisely that. The chainfist says SW only and means, apparently, ‘everyone can take this, except in the case of replacing your storm bolter, as is perfectly clear from the datasheet’.

 

I’m not saying you’re wrong. You seem very confident you’re right, and I’m prepared to yield to your experience. I’m certainly not going to keep going back and forth about it. But I still find it confusing, as did a few others. You’re not going to convince me that writing ‘Space Wolves only’ beside a weapon that any faction can take is an elegant solution to anything, though.

 

 

I did not say the list never overrides the datasheet. Quite the opposite actually. 

 

What I said there was that you should ignore entries like the Relic blade one for SPACE WOLVEs because it clearly states that they can't take it, regardless of whether they have access to the list or not.

Basically either

• the Datasheet 'unlocks' a gear list on a condition (trading the storm bolter in this case because we look at the SPACE WOLVES entry) and the gear list itself tells you what kind of gear you can take from it (where it quite clearly tells you that the Relic blade is a no-go for SPACE WOLVE Terminators), or
• the Datasheet explicitly tells you what weapon you can take on a condition (trading the power fist in case of non-SPACE WOLVE Terminator and Terminator Gunner) without using the gear list at all

The chainfist entry in the Terminator-Weapons list is completely irrelevant for non-SPACE WOLVES Terminators because they don't use the Terminator-Weapons list if they want to take one. The important ingame difference here is that while SPACE WOLVES Terminator Sergeants are allowed to take chainfists, others can only take one for their regular Terminators or Terminator Gunners. So it's 3 chainfist attacks (hitting on 3+ due the SPACE WOLVES trait) vs 2 chainfist attacks (hitting on 4+). The fact that SPACE WOLVE Terminators can keep their power fist while taking a chainfist is really trivial as nobody would want to do that unless they have such a model converted from past editions or something already.

 

Same goes for the Terminator Captain of course. You can trade its power sword with a chainfist (circumvents the "SPACE WOLVES only" for other chapters) or with one item from the Terminator Weapons list (doesn't circumvent the "no SPACE WOLVES" for the Relic blade from the gear list itself).

 

 

It's pretty straight forward. Only use the Terminator Weapon list when the Datasheet tells you to do so. Don't use the Terminator Weapon list if it doesn't tell you to do so.

Edited May 23, 2019 by sfPanzer

[SaintToad]

The wargear lists don't override the datasheets and they never have...

I did not say the list never overrides the datasheet.

Maybe I was confused by this.

 

Anyway, I’m just kidding with that last little barb. Your most recent post makes more sense to me. Thanks.

 

For what it’s worth, I intuitively felt the rules should work as you described, I just wanted to understand why they were written that way and ensure I wasn’t misinterpreting something.

[Berzul]

So, trying to make the most out of the new rules, how low would you guys reckon it is safe to go in model count, in order to bring in some heavy hitters?

 

I am used to making teams of 6 to 8 models. Even if the lists may not bring as many heavy hitters as other teams, I have always found that bringing in a couple of tacticals or a trio of scouts, serves it better, since you can use them to block enemies or capture objectives. Other teams of smaller siezes can find themselves in a harder position when objectives are taken into consideration.

 

But, as more options open up, I am tempted in running a more powerful yet smaller team.

 

I am thinking something along the lines of:

 

Veteran Sergeant with Chainsword and Storm Shield as a Leader

Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield as a Combat Specialist

Terminator Gunner with Assault Cannon and Powerfist as a Heavy Specialist

Tactical Gunner with a Plasma Gun as a Sniper Specialist

Tactical Sergeant with a Combi Plasma

 

Five guys, but:

Two plasma guns can cut through TEQs easily enough

Leaders in combat positions with a Combat Specialist nearby can be amazing, through stratagems

An Assault Cannon as a Heavy 7 with no penalties for movement can easily clear hordes, and help compensate the model-count disadvantage in the early turns of the match

 

But, still, its just 5 guys.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Berzul

[SaintToad]

Pretty mission dependent, I’d say. That new mission where you fight for control of the center (Ultima something, I think), for instance, could favor a very tough, killy list such as yours.

 

That said, I still think we’re going to need to tailor our lists somewhat. Versatility will become more important with Elites, since every faction can now bring in legitimate threats for a variety of playstyles. This will serve Astartes well, since they already do versatility well. But at the end of the day the points are just too tight not to take full advantage of the command roster.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, at least after the first game, you can have a roster that is bigger than your fieldable kill team.  I would highly recommend that - some of your kit (plasma, thunder hammer) is largely wasted when facing a horde bases army, and you would be better served by, for example, flamers or more bodies.  So, add models to your roster that you can swap in to replace other models when you face certain types of enemies.

 

I played a short campaign with an IG list, and faced a 5 man deathwatch team twice and did quite well both times.  Essentially, given the other side's low model count, I was able to (for the most part) move my models in such a way as to either limit his strengths or to allow him to only get up close to a couple of models at a time.  I'm worried that your smaller lists might suffer in the same way.  Or they might not - the hardest battles I faced were against necrons, and those were a relatively small, elite force as well (I think they had 5 or 6 models).

Edited May 23, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui