HH 53: Titan Death by Guy Haley

[Calas Typhon]

Really hope we get some more Riven Hound stuff. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I get the idea that Dorn is concerned about the impact to Planet Earth Terra itself by having so many Titans duke it out, but that still doesn't make as much sense to me. It's like if one country says "you know, we're concerned about the effects of noise pollution from fighter jets over our mainland, so we're not going to fly any warplanes." The other side would be like "thanks!" and get instant air superiority. And that's in the relatively "honorable"/Geneva-Convention-abiding modern times. You can imagine the lack of qualms a conflict as bitter as the Horus Heresy (where....you know...actual daemons are involved) would entail. Especially if Horus's goal is to kill the Emperor. Nuking the planet is the only way to be sure*.

 

But all of that is moot since the recent blurbs about Adeptus Titanicus and Titan Death, as well as comments from Guy Haley himself, are basically GW waving a hand and saying "look, Beta Gammon, ok?" So i'm fine with it in the same sense that I'm fine with warp shenaniganery and all the other illogical things we 40k fans just kind of accept. Willing suspension of disbelief and all that.

 

Long-story-short I'm not being negative about anything and will wait for the book to come out.

 

 

*which is why Titan warfare in general, in my humble persona opionion, is dumb. Considering how ridiculously powerful space naval craft are in 40k, Titans just make themselves prime orbital bombardment targets. "But void shields!" Yea...exactly! Void shields! The same exact thing that naval vessels have dialed up to 40 and are precisely what naval weapons are designed to defeat.

TL;DR: the in-universe WAAC commanders would go all in on excellent infantry and naval vessels and skip the rest

I get what you’re saying about naval weapons, so this is mostly just a response to why they’d need to throw down at Beta-Garmon. It’s a little handwavy, but no more handwavy than why these armies don’t drag asteroids around to drop on planets instead of invading them, etc. I’ve essentially conceptualized it like this, if you don’t isolate and neutralize major battlegroups and fleets on your advance corridor, and they get around you, they can essentially scoot around your galactic ‘rear’ and destroy your production capacity at a whim if they are a moderately sized battle group. This is because of the way the Shattered Legions tied up so much resources, so I felt like it would be even more severe for larger fleets. As for why the titans have to fight, simply because they are there. The loyalists ones are on the ground, so the traitors have to land theirs. Without titans and B-G being a massive fortress system, they can’t be bombarded from space as established in different places in the lore and must be invaded, since they must be invaded and have titans of their own, the traitors can’t not deploy their own titans because the loyalist titans would steamroll the traitor forces.

[bluntblade]

Plus this is still an Imperium that Horus means to rule and expand until it encompasses the entire Galaxy. He hasn't read the Cabal's script.

[Indefragable]

 

<snip>

 

 

Yea I get all that and also get that it's just one of those things you have to accept.

 

Even though it feels a bit PR-ish, I'll accept that Beta Gammon is a big deal and "look, they just gotta fight there cuz it's important, ok?"

[Marshal Loss]

I mean, it's pretty simple really...

1. It's just one of those things where it is necessary for the reader to suspend their disbelief. Why doesn't everybody just blow planets up whenever they run into significant resistance? Because that would make the setting boring.
2. More importantly, Beta Garmon is the mother of all armouries, a fortress world that guards the only major passage to the Sol System. Given that Slaves to Darkness consistently notes that the Traitors are running low on ammunition and supplies (and logically therefore vehicles etc as well), they need this world.
3. You're forgetting also that one of the reasons why Dorn sent the majority of their Titans and mortal troops to Beta Garmon is because they would literally drain all of Terra's supplies were they to stay there indefinitely - keep in mind they didn't know when Horus was actually going to turn up. They are preparing for a siege, after all. Dorn is given a chance to use some troops he wasn't going to be able to maintain anyway to slow down or potentially even stop Horus' advance. It's a sound strategic move in the context of the setting.

[bluntblade]

Back in MoM, "half of Terra's granaries (stood) empty". That was at least a year before Beta-Garmon.

[MrDarth151]

Meh. Beta-Garmon will be another air quote brilliant air quote display of prowess by traitors, where they will win a battle just overwhelmingly enough for Siege to happen.

 

It's the same song and dance every time. We know that Horus will not commit all of his forces to Beta-Garmon, because it doesn't chronologically make sense. We know that they are going to win, because the Siege happens. It is going to be contrived, because Horus just spend a decade or so in constant fighting, and he is going against fortified system supported by practically untouched forces of Segmentum Solar.

 

Because attrition is not something that happens to Chaos. We cannot allow basic principles of warfare get in a way of storytelling, after all.

 

This is going to be a book long Armatura. This story has been told about two dozen times within HH already, and it would need to be seriously amazing to actually be readable, at this point.

 

Pah. Sanguinius is my favourite Primarch, and I still can't muster any enthusiasm for this book.

[DarkChaplain]

Because attrition is not something that happens to Chaos. We cannot allow basic principles of warfare get in a way of storytelling, after all.

 

Have you read Slaves to Darkness? Especially considering your comments on Horus and the traitors winning in short order?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Meh. Beta-Garmon will be another air quote brilliant air quote display of prowess by traitors, where they will win a battle just overwhelmingly enough for Siege to happen.

 

It's the same song and dance every time. We know that Horus will not commit all of his forces to Beta-Garmon, because it doesn't chronologically make sense. We know that they are going to win, because the Siege happens. It is going to be contrived, because Horus just spend a decade or so in constant fighting, and he is going against fortified system supported by practically untouched forces of Segmentum Solar.

 

Because attrition is not something that happens to Chaos. We cannot allow basic principles of warfare get in a way of storytelling, after all.

 

This is going to be a book long Armatura. This story has been told about two dozen times within HH already, and it would need to be seriously amazing to actually be readable, at this point.

 

Pah. Sanguinius is my favourite Primarch, and I still can't muster any enthusiasm for this book.

 

Pssh, why would I want to read something about WWII? The Axis powers obviously lose.

[mc warhammer]

i'm totally fine with stories where we know the ending (i think we've listed many successful examples of that previously)...but i do understand that a certain amount of "fatigue" can set in with what appear to be fake outs or manufactured drama.

 

but that's what you get with any prolonged storyline, whether you're aware of the ending or not. that's just modern storytelling.

 

nobody watches the climax of the peaky blinders and actually expects thomas shelby to die. or if buffy dies in her own series, we all expect that she'll return. audiences and readers know the rules too well now, in effect, we all "know" what the ending will be. or at the very least, what the ending will not be.

 

even game of thrones has settled nicely into that territory.

 

so we go along with these teases and manufactured tension, the same way you go with the ups and downs of a rollercoaster. you never really think it will come off the rails or end somewhere other than at the finish point.

[DukeLeto69]

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

[bluntblade]

Foreknowledge is a hazard with prequels, but it's not as if successful examples such as Rogue One and the recent Planet of the Apes trilogy (horse-riding, dual-machine-gun-wielding bonobo and all) don't exist.

[Sandlemad]

 

Just realised what the cathedrals of varying size on the imperators' backs remind me of: that one Key and Peele sketch with the increasingly large hats.

[Marshal Rohr]

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

That is the plot of StD. Horus has nothing left. The line used in the book is, paraphrasing, Horus is a general who has broken open the gates to the city but can see the horsemen on the hill.

[Indefragable]

 

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

That is the plot of StD. Horus has nothing left. The line used in the book is, paraphrasing, Horus is a general who has broken open the gates to the city but can see the horsemen on the hill.

 

 

Ugh. Spoilers.

 

Oh well. It's an interesting thought. I wonder (hope?) then that Horus pulls some strategic genius in the Sol System that gives him the initiative back. Part of what made The Alamo...well...the Alamo was the sense of hopelessness and fighting on in the face of overwhelming odds. If Siege of Terra is much more of a Loyalist run-out-the-clock thing where they have the initiative that just seems waaaaaaaaaay less dramatic.

 

But here I am judging things before they are even written again. Don't mind me...

[bluntblade]

There is also Mars, assuming that those mountain-sized missiles didn't eat up too many resources.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

That is the plot of StD. Horus has nothing left. The line used in the book is, paraphrasing, Horus is a general who has broken open the gates to the city but can see the horsemen on the hill.

Ugh. Spoilers.

 

Oh well. It's an interesting thought. I wonder (hope?) then that Horus pulls some strategic genius in the Sol System that gives him the initiative back. Part of what made The Alamo...well...the Alamo was the sense of hopelessness and fighting on in the face of overwhelming odds. If Siege of Terra is much more of a Loyalist run-out-the-clock thing where they have the initiative that just seems waaaaaaaaaay less dramatic.

 

But here I am judging things before they are even written again. Don't mind me...

Hoh boi, whatever you do don’t read the description online or watch John French’s interview :D

[1ncarnadine]

 

Hoh boi, whatever you do don’t read the description online or watch John French’s interview

 

I've received the same reaction from several people at this point, in person, by just paraphrasing the BL website's summary of the book.

 

Nope, just read it, we're not telling you anything.

[MrDarth151]

 

Because attrition is not something that happens to Chaos. We cannot allow basic principles of warfare get in a way of storytelling, after all.

 

Have you read Slaves to Darkness? Especially considering your comments on Horus and the traitors winning in short order?

 

 

Really? So the Siege is cancelled and loyalist can finally have an important strategic victory?

 

No?

 

Thought so.

 

Beta-Garmon does not matter. It's a spectacle piece with negligible impact on the storyline. I am not going to pretend otherwise.

 

 

 

Pssh, why would I want to read something about WWII? The Axis powers obviously lose.

 

Hilarious and completely ignorant of the fact that most WWII stories tell either A) Character stories of very small groups of people who have little relevance to the greater war being played out or B) Tell stories of fictionalised operations that can either fail or succeed depending on the author's whim.

 

 

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

 

They are not going to all die, and that will have to count for victory, because this is Horus Heresy.

 

You know why I have cynical approach to this book? I've read the entirety of Horus Heresy. All of it. Every. Single. :cussing. Piece. Every numbered book, every novella, every short story, every audio drama. It's the same story almost every time. No variation. Chaos. Will. Win. No matter how contrived it has to be, if we have to ignore continuity or just use outright diabolous ex machinas that will never show up again.

 

Come on. Forces of Horus have fought and suffered attrition for ten years. Landing operations followed by siege action are literally the single most damaging operations for the attacker in existence. Horus will to two of them, in quick succession, win one, and almost win another. It will not possibly happen without contrivance, and I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to like it.

 

"But Darth, the book hasn't been released yet..."

 

Yeah, I told myself that too for the last twenty times, and was disappointed in every single instance, with the exception of Praetorian of Dorn, which I will forever champion as the way balanced conflict should be written in 40k.

 

I hope the book will have good character moments, and that those will make it serviceable. The war? There is nothing that interests about Beta-Garmon conflict in and of itself, and that's assuming Haley has chops to pull it off in satisfying fashion, which is not something I have seen in his large scale conflicts up until this point.

 

Yes, yes, I am bitter and cynical, and you are all excited that the conflict will actually get covered. Very good. Enjoy that feeling. It is quite pleasant. I will remain cynical until proven otherwise, because I rather be pleasantly surprised, then yet again disappointed.

 

That is all I have to say on the matter. Have a nice day.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Battle of Nycorn was mentioned in the first Adeptus Titanicus book. Beta-Garmon is an expansion on older fluff. You'd know that if you actually read the older background. To date, every piece of AT and Epic Space Marine fluff has been realized in some form or fashion in BL and FW books.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Which...didnt seem to have anything to do with his complaints

[Marshal Rohr]

He’s complaining it was invented to just show the traitors winning. He’s wrong (like always).

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Because attrition is not something that happens to Chaos. We cannot allow basic principles of warfare get in a way of storytelling, after all.

 

Have you read Slaves to Darkness? Especially considering your comments on Horus and the traitors winning in short order?

 

 

Really? So the Siege is cancelled and loyalist can finally have an important strategic victory?

 

No?

 

Thought so.

 

Beta-Garmon does not matter. It's a spectacle piece with negligible impact on the storyline. I am not going to pretend otherwise.

 

 

@MrDarth respect your opinion and can understand to some extent why you say what you do but have to say by your rationale there is little or no reason to read any of the Siege of Terra books because we know what the outcome is going to be.

 

We know that Dorn wants to use Beta Garmon to slow down Horus' approach to terra and delay his forces sufficiently to allow time for loyalist reinforcements to reach them. What would be nice twist is if the loyalists actually won against Horus. Perhaps a Pyrrhic victory at great cost but nonetheless something that forces the Warmaster to change his plans and head to Terra before he is actually ready or had planned?

 

They are not going to all die, and that will have to count for victory, because this is Horus Heresy.

 

You know why I have cynical approach to this book? I've read the entirety of Horus Heresy. All of it. Every. Single. :cussing. Piece. Every numbered book, every novella, every short story, every audio drama. It's the same story almost every time. No variation. Chaos. Will. Win. No matter how contrived it has to be, if we have to ignore continuity or just use outright diabolous ex machinas that will never show up again.

 

Come on. Forces of Horus have fought and suffered attrition for ten years. Landing operations followed by siege action are literally the single most damaging operations for the attacker in existence. Horus will to two of them, in quick succession, win one, and almost win another. It will not possibly happen without contrivance, and I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to like it.

 

"But Darth, the book hasn't been released yet..."

 

Yeah, I told myself that too for the last twenty times, and was disappointed in every single instance, with the exception of Praetorian of Dorn, which I will forever champion as the way balanced conflict should be written in 40k.

 

I hope the book will have good character moments, and that those will make it serviceable. The war? There is nothing that interests about Beta-Garmon conflict in and of itself, and that's assuming Haley has chops to pull it off in satisfying fashion, which is not something I have seen in his large scale conflicts up until this point.

 

Yes, yes, I am bitter and cynical, and you are all excited that the conflict will actually get covered. Very good. Enjoy that feeling. It is quite pleasant. I will remain cynical until proven otherwise, because I rather be pleasantly surprised, then yet again disappointed.

 

That is all I have to say on the matter. Have a nice day.

 

 

I'm commenting because you've mentioned how the Chaos forces aren't affected by attrition, but the key point of Slaves to Darkness is how the Traitors are an almost entirely spent force, that the World Eaters, Night Lords, and Emperors Children have almost entirely fragmented, the Alpha Legion are almost going independent, the Iron Warriors almost bled dry, and the Sons of Horus seriously damaged by Beta-Garmon. Attrition is happening, don't try to change the goal-posts to attrition meaning the Siege won't occur. 

 

 

Pssh, why would I want to read something about WWII? The Axis powers obviously lose.

 

Hilarious and completely ignorant of the fact that most WWII stories tell either A) Character stories of very small groups of people who have little relevance to the greater war being played out or  Tell stories of fictionalised operations that can either fail or succeed depending on the author's whim.

 

So, basically exactly what most of the Heresy series has been, then? Also, my point was more that, in these sorts of "historical series", finding out about Beta-Garmon is more akin to reading about what happened in the Pacific Theatre. Sure, we know how the story ends, but it can be interesting to fill in the blanks. By your logic there's no reason to read the Heresy series at all, as they're obviously not going to change what happens, given we know the story of 40k. The Loyalists aren't going to have major strategic victories here, because they almost lost the Heresy. They only won by Terra stretching long enough that Horus was forced into the gambit of a direct confrontation with the Emperor. The Siege didn't happen because the Loyalists were doing amazingly and wanted to fight Horus there.

 

The Heresy was never about the Loyalists doing well. It started with 3 loyal Legions being shattered, shortly after one loyal Legion and one semi-loyal Legion broke each other, while the remaining Loyalists are sent to the far reaches of the galaxy then held up to prevent them from properly saving the Imperium. The Loyalists were never going to win any major, significant victories, because we know how this story ends, and the story in its entirety is Horus blind-siding the Imperium, before making the galactic equivalent of a bum-rush straight for Terra, beating back the bloodied and isolated loyal Legions until the last stand on Terra. Horus spent years before the Heresy designing things exactly so that the Loyalists wouldn't be in any position to win any significant victories. 

If you were expecting things to go differently, I'm not really sure how you could come to the conclusion of that being a possibility.

[mc warhammer]

You know why I have cynical approach to this book? I've read the entirety of Horus Heresy. All of it. Every. Single. :cussing. Piece. Every numbered book, every novella, every short story, every audio drama. It's the same story almost every time. No variation.

i am impressed by the ability to continually subject yourself to something you hate. that’s some death guard levels of resilience there

 

if all black library have to put up with is some message board grumbling while still taking your money, then that’s not a terrible deal for them. and not much motivation to change

[MrDarth151]

 

You know why I have cynical approach to this book? I've read the entirety of Horus Heresy. All of it. Every. Single. :cussing. Piece. Every numbered book, every novella, every short story, every audio drama. It's the same story almost every time. No variation.

i am impressed by the ability to continually subject yourself to something you hate. that’s some death guard levels of resilience there

 

if all black library have to put up with is some message board grumbling while still taking your money, then that’s not a terrible deal for them. and not much motivation to change

 

 

Accentuating the negative.

 

I immensely dislike how HH portrays warfare. That doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of other aspects of the series. Fiction is multi-faceted. I can, for example, enjoy character work and world building. Take Betrayer. I can hate the way Shadow Crusade was portrayed and enjoy A D-Bs portrayal of World Eaters at the same time. It is not mutually exclusive.

 

It's the same kind of presumptions that lead people to believe that I hate everything A D-B written, which is not true. I might really dislike Master of Mankind and still say that his short stories written for HH are some of the best work I've seen in 40k period. Which I do. And there are still elements of Master of Mankind that I thought were well done, and that's probably the most disappointing book I have ever read when it comes to HH.

 

So no. I don't hate 40k, and I don't hate HH. I hate aspects of it. A concept everyone, evidently, struggles to comprehend.