HH 53: Titan Death by Guy Haley

[b1soul]

Beta Garmon's importance would be somewhat flexible depending on what the GW and BL folks want to do with it

 

I think the expenditure of resources at Beta Garmon does help to explain (somewhat) why Terra isn't demolished during the Siege.

[Orwell84]

Beta Garmon's importance would be somewhat flexible depending on what the GW and BL folks want to do with it

 

I think the expenditure of resources at Beta Garmon does help to explain (somewhat) why Terra isn't demolished during the Siege.

 

That, and Dorn states that fully unleashing that many god-machines would destroy Terra. Hence the bulk of loyalist titans were redeployed to Beta-Garmon.

 

At present, it looks like Beta-Garmon is shaping up as a pyrrhic victory for the traitors in that the defenders seem to have bought precious time for Guilliman and the Lion to close in on Horus' rear, with what results we all know.

[b1soul]

If you could force the Traitors' Titans to engage your Titans somewhere outside of Sol, that would be a smart move, yes

[karden00]

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

[Marshal Rohr]

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

 

I am thinking this is exactly the case. Maybe, maybe not. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

 

From the sound of it, Beta Garmon will have little in the way of infantry/Legion support, mainly just the Titans.

[karden00]

It’s occurs to me that Dorns reasoning is suspect. As someone has already mentioned, removing your titans in order to protect Terra only works if you can assure the enemy will do likewise.

But would titan warfare be so disasterous in a warzone that has massive warfleets in orbit? At least 5 Gloriana vessels, the Trisageion, Blessed Lady, Phalanx, whatever the Imperator Somnium is. And those are only the largest ships. You need far less to give ground forces/population centres a hard time from orbit.

We know that Jaghatai will retake the Lions Gate, so clearly the landing and equipping of ground forces is vital. But I’ll hardly buy that fleet bombardments will not factor into the conflict, and once orbital strikes are in play...Titan combat hardly seems ‘too much,’ to me.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I can only assume there's some sort of orbital shielding over the Palace that prevents orbital fire, or that there's enough upwards-pointing guns that any ship that flies above the Palace is going to be crashing shortly afterwards. Titans, on the other hand, can be landed and fire against the same shields defending you against the other ground-based weaponry the Legions are using.

 

To be honest, 40k/30k always kinda has the assumption that fleets aren't really going to impact on ground battles much, as otherwise most battles can be resolved by "oh noes, the Sons of Horus army over there is massive! Our army is a fraction of the size! How are we going to beat them? Horus has us beaten for sure! Fleetmaster, open fire, all batteries."

[Orwell84]

I can only assume there's some sort of orbital shielding over the Palace that prevents orbital fire, or that there's enough upwards-pointing guns that any ship that flies above the Palace is going to be crashing shortly afterwards. Titans, on the other hand, can be landed and fire against the same shields defending you against the other ground-based weaponry the Legions are using.

 

To be honest, 40k/30k always kinda has the assumption that fleets aren't really going to impact on ground battles much, as otherwise most battles can be resolved by "oh noes, the Sons of Horus army over there is massive! Our army is a fraction of the size! How are we going to beat them? Horus has us beaten for sure! Fleetmaster, open fire, all batteries."

 

The Battle of Hoth comes to mind here. The defender's base can't be hit from orbit due to a mix of shields and anti-ship cannons, so the attacker has to mount an ground assault with walkers and foot soldiers. Granted, a hidden base on an ice world and humanity's teeming centre are different warzones, but the basic principle is the same.

 

Another factor in "why doesn't X just bombard from orbit": you can pulverise any given target as much as you like, but if you actually want your prize left (relatively) intact and/or make use of it afterwards, a more discriminating method is required. In both Horus and Dorn's case, that means old-fashioned siege and slogging it out.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Other point is that in the case of a coup like this, you want proof of death. If you're usurping the Emperor, you want to be 100% certain that he's dead, rather than just nuking the palace and leaving open the possibility that he escaped in the confusion.

You want to legitimise your ascent to the throne, which means proof that the previous incumbent is dead (which also helps prevent those pesky counter-coups), and also to still have a throne to ascend to. Same as on the defense. The Imperials want to defend Terra, and they want collateral damage kept to a minimum. Titans are things that don't exactly work in targetting pin-point-specific areas, they basically are the epitome of collateral damage. Secondly, even if you do manage to use them to destroy the targets they can actually attack, once they're done, you can't risk them attacking any close, and now they're a big sitting target that tends to cause rather large explosions if it gets destroyed itself.

[Moonreaper666]

Did the Traitors use all of their Exterminatus weaponry at Beta Garmon?

 

How many ships did the Traitors use at Beta Garmon?

 

 

Could Hundreds of Titan Legions destroy the Imperial Palace, Golden Throne and the Webway Project?

 

 

Would Vulkan have activated the Talisman if the Battle of BG hadn't happen?

 

 

 

The destruction of Terra would have given Chaos Ultimate victory, even if the Traitors lose all of their forces used in the attack?

 

 

It was the Great Scouring that broke the back of the Traitor Legions

 

 

Without the Solar System, the Traitors would have recovered faster than the Loyalists

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, it was definitely the Siege that broke the back of the Traitor Legions, that's why they were fleeing. If they could still fight, they would have done it. 

 

Also, "Could hundreds of Titan Legions destroy the Imperial Palace, Golden Throne and the Webway Project?" No crud, dude, they're described nearly every time they're mentioned as city-killers, and that's just a single Titan.

 

Lastly, could we stop just coming in, asking a dozen "what if" questions, without adding anything in the way of meaningful discussion?

[Moonreaper666]

No, it was definitely the Siege that broke the back of the Traitor Legions, that's why they were fleeing. If they could still fight, they would have done it.

 

Also, "Could hundreds of Titan Legions destroy the Imperial Palace, Golden Throne and the Webway Project?" No crud, dude, they're described nearly every time they're mentioned as city-killers, and that's just a single Titan.

 

Lastly, could we stop just coming in, asking a dozen "what if" questions, without adding anything in the way of meaningful discussion?

I am adding meaning to this discussion

 

 

By pointing out that Beta Garmon is essential for another reason

 

 

Even if the Loyalist win the Siege of Terra, should they lose the Golden Throne/Emperor/Webwar or the Astronomican OR the Prisoners/Dangerous Artifacts guarded by the Custodes...

 

...it would have all been for naught

 

 

(No Golden Throne means the Warp eats Terra)

 

(No Astronomicon means the Imperium's FTL is forever crippled)

 

(There are things/beings that are capable of destroying the Imperium which are in Terra guarded by the golden boys)

 

 

A hundred Hive Worlds/Fortress Worlds don't compare to the importance of Terra itself

[Pathstrider]

I think it's also worth bearing in mind the forces that fight the heresy are essentially those created for the great crusade where the main objective is to retake planets.

 

That's not to say they can't bombard places from orbit, but the majority of the forces will be designed to take and hold planets.

[b1soul]

MoonReaper's posts are poetry...we just can't understand it

[Moonreaper666]

MoonReaper's posts are poetry...we just can't understand it

Beta Garmon is essential for two reasons (my theory)

 

 

 

-Traitors use ALL of their Exterminatus weaponry and lose many of their ships

 

(Which explains why they didn't blow/bombard Terra)

 

 

-Most of the Titans are used there instead of on Terra

 

 

(And risk destroying irreplacable things like the Astronomicon, Golden Throne and Special Vaults)

 

(Losing the Astronomicon alone would ensure Horus' victory)

[Indefragable]

 

I can only assume there's some sort of orbital shielding over the Palace that prevents orbital fire, or that there's enough upwards-pointing guns that any ship that flies above the Palace is going to be crashing shortly afterwards. Titans, on the other hand, can be landed and fire against the same shields defending you against the other ground-based weaponry the Legions are using.

 

To be honest, 40k/30k always kinda has the assumption that fleets aren't really going to impact on ground battles much, as otherwise most battles can be resolved by "oh noes, the Sons of Horus army over there is massive! Our army is a fraction of the size! How are we going to beat them? Horus has us beaten for sure! Fleetmaster, open fire, all batteries."

 

The Battle of Hoth comes to mind here. The defender's base can't be hit from orbit due to a mix of shields and anti-ship cannons, so the attacker has to mount an ground assault with walkers and foot soldiers. Granted, a hidden base on an ice world and humanity's teeming centre are different warzones, but the basic principle is the same.

 

Another factor in "why doesn't X just bombard from orbit": you can pulverise any given target as much as you like, but if you actually want your prize left (relatively) intact and/or make use of it afterwards, a more discriminating method is required. In both Horus and Dorn's case, that means old-fashioned siege and slogging it out.

 

 

Oh, the Battle of Hoth. https://www.wired.com/2013/02/battle-of-hoth/

[DarkChaplain]

I think it's also worth bearing in mind the forces that fight the heresy are essentially those created for the great crusade where the main objective is to retake planets.

 

That's not to say they can't bombard places from orbit, but the majority of the forces will be designed to take and hold planets.

 

Ghosts Speak Not by James Swallow actually had the first proper Exterminatus as you might know them from high-ranking Inquisitors. It makes the statement that before that point, no ordinary human had ever had the authority or gall to order Exterminatus, and only the Primarchs or the Emperor ever used it.

The way this whole scene was met with shock and disbelief makes me think that Exterminatus was utterly rare even during the Great Crusade - not only did the Expedition Fleet need a Primarch to issue the order (and by numbers alone, we know there were dozens if not hundreds without Primarch or even Legion support), and looking at stuff like the Orks on Ullanor and around, Chondax and so on, you'd certainly think full-on orbital devastation would be more common. It wasn't.

While they DO have planet killer navy, and massive firepower in general, actually using it on planetary targets was extremely frowned upon indeed.

 

And even if we made the case for the traitors not giving a damn about that anymore, who'd even be willing to use it? Not Angron or Fulgrim. Not Lorgar, who would rather make it a glorious religious sacrifice. Not Horus, who wants to show his genius and superiority first hand. Even Perturabo I'd discount here, because he's too much of a martyr, prone to toughing it out, instead of just taking drastic yet decisive measures. Of all of them, I'd say Mortarion would be the most likely candidate, since he and his Legion kept all those forbidden atomic weapons already and have very little regard for other beings. They'll irradiate entire planets if they figure it gets the job done.

 

And as Moonreaper says, there'd be no point in nuking Terra from orbit. That has been established from the start - Horus needs to finish it personally. He needs to claim the Palace, the Throne, victory over his father. That's what it is all about. He cannot afford *not* being the one to put him down, and he wants to rule after the fact.

[Biscuittzz]

 

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

 

From the sound of it, Beta Garmon will have little in the way of infantry/Legion support, mainly just the Titans.

 

 

No, I believe Beta Garmon will have astronomical amounts of infantry support. Corax sends the Therion Cohort regiments to Beta Garmon while he goes to Yarant to save the Wolves.

 

I don't know the source, but hasn't it been said that Beta Garmon incurred greater total losses than the entirety of the last 5 years of fighting?

 

I believe there a elements of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists present as well.

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

 

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

 

From the sound of it, Beta Garmon will have little in the way of infantry/Legion support, mainly just the Titans.

 

 

No, I believe Beta Garmon will have astronomical amounts of infantry support. Corax sends the Therion Cohort regiments to Beta Garmon while he goes to Yarant to save the Wolves.

 

I don't know the source, but hasn't it been said that Beta Garmon incurred greater total losses than the entirety of the last 5 years of fighting?

 

I believe there a elements of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists present as well.

 

 

That is mentioned in Slaves to Darkness. And in the Guy Haley interview he mentions Sanguinius will be given overall command at Beta Garmon, so it makes sense if the BA are there in force as well. Also, there have been a few mentions of Titans fighting on Terra, so I don't think every single Titan is sent there and they all die. But it could certainly still be a massive culling for both traitor and loyalist forces

[Moonreaper666]

There are only three Loyalist Titan Legions on Terra when the siege happened

 

(Until the HH books retcon that)

 

 

Explains why there is so little Titan and Guardsmen support

 

 

I guess casualties at Garmon to be in the high Trillions

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

Also, there have been a few mentions of Titans fighting on Terra, so I don't think every single Titan is sent there and they all die.

 

It's established in the Iron Warriors Omnibus that the Imperator Titan Dies Irae manages to breach the walls of the Imperial Palace, and there are multiple Traitor Titans of the Legio Mortis surviving into the 41st Millenia, so there will certainly be some Titan showdowns on Terra.

[Lord Marshal]

 

 

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

 

From the sound of it, Beta Garmon will have little in the way of infantry/Legion support, mainly just the Titans.

 

 

No, I believe Beta Garmon will have astronomical amounts of infantry support. Corax sends the Therion Cohort regiments to Beta Garmon while he goes to Yarant to save the Wolves.

 

I don't know the source, but hasn't it been said that Beta Garmon incurred greater total losses than the entirety of the last 5 years of fighting?

 

I believe there a elements of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists present as well.

 

 

Imperial Army lose something absurd like a billion lives in one day of fighting if I recall from one of the reports Malcador gets.

[Taliesin]

I'm even more excited for the Titandeath /Beta Garmon campaign book that is coming out just after Haley's novel.

But this novel itself will be excellent as well I am sure. And I love that they brought Sanguinius and the Blood Angels into this, excellent.

[Mellow]

 

 

In terms of numbers, excluding loyalist legions, custodians, and things that were known to be particular to Terra, are we looking at Beta Garmon as a larger scale engagement than the Seige itself?

I have mixed feelings about it if that were to be the case, but it would do a lot to reconcile the newer, larger scale of the conflict with the older, more modest scope of the Seige.

I am thinking this is exactly the case. Maybe, maybe not.

Bets Garmon will absolutely be a larger engagement than the Siege. This is due to the quote obvious fact that Beta Garmon is a star system and not just a single planet.