Expanding AT - Xenos

[Grifftofer]

Awesome

 

Once I finished my first two Reavers I'll do a size comparison with the first edition Phantom, and hopefully that one should still be roughly in scale. Can't wait to do some playtesting than

That reminds me, I need to dig my epic Eldar titans out of their hiding hole.

 

Looks good.

 

Some musing idea sort of things.

 

Holofields

Rather than provide cover (since that is limited) what about a simple -2 to hit beyond x” and -1 to hit under x”. This means an Eldar Titan can hide and be very hard to hit.

 

Jump jets

Reveneant jump packs, possible based on a command check, place the Titan anywhere within y” facing in any direction. Possible some mechanic to reduce its holofield save, to represent the jump thrust being something enemy engines can lock onto.

 

Hull points

Love the phantom data card, however it feels too light weight. Either have low armour or reduced holes on the board (what are they called). Phantoms and warlock titans should be able to go toe to toe with warlords.

 

Titan weapons

Phantom and warlock (no idea about reveneants) shoulder weapons should have some use. I see them as the elders anti shield weapons. Their arm mounts should be devastating, however voids (and power fields) can stop them.

 

An interesting idea would to have several different draining stats on the weapon. Allowing for a few wepoans to be very versatile.

 

Reactor

I feel each race should have someohting different for the reactor (Orks should never be allowed near a plasma reactor). But they should still have the same basic mechanic.

 

Eldar could have a spirit stream the spirits of the dead Eldar pilots, they could also use this is change the command roll

I'm definitely leaning back towards that approach with regards to the Holofields in light of my missing the fact that 6s always hit. As for hull points, I'd prefer that we start off with them being a bit too light and then increase their toughness rather than the other way round. Its a personal preference, but I find people more willing to playtest against obviously underpowered homebrews.

 

It appears that generally people would prefer a third 'carapace' weapon slot over the much more limited ability I had planned for the shoulder weapons. I have no problems with this, its just an alternate approach. See more below.

 

Well, for eldar titans, it could be justified in a similar way to wraithguards. I'm rusty on eldar lore, but I recall the wraithguards needing a seer to guide them to avoid losing touch with the real world. Maybe the eldar souls in the spirit stones in the titan might lose focus, or overcome the senses of the living pilot, causing him to momentarily lose control of the titan.

This is actually fairly close to thoughts I was having. Here is a more complete write up of what I was thinking and is intended to be a replacement for the Reactor mechanic.

 

 

Resonance

Even an Eldar’s psyche can only withstand the weight of memories/sensations that can be provided through a Titan’s Infinity Circuit, for so long, the negative effects of this connection is called Resonance. An Eldar Steersman accrues Resonance by utilizing the experience of the souls held within their Titan’s Infinity Circuit. The Titan’s Steersman can gain Resonance in the following ways:

• Fire the maximum possible number of shots for a weapon with a variable Dice characteristic. (1 Res for D3s, 2 Res for D6s)
• Use the Titan’s Improved Speed value. (1 Res)
• Use the Titan’s Improved Manoeuvre value. (1 Res)
• Re-roll a Command check. (1 Res)
• Give either Shieldbane or Rending to a single weapon. (1 Res)

If Resonance reaches half full (those holes with an orange indicator), the Titan suffers -1 to all Command checks as the Gestalt consciousness of the Titan begins to infringe on the Steersman’s thoughts and actions. If Resonance ever become full (the hole marked with a red indicator), the Steersman must limit the depth of the link with their Titan and suffers a -2 to all Command checks for the rest of the battle.

 

Note: If an Eldar Titan uses the Shutdown Order, roll a D6 for each point of Resonance accrued so far during the game. For each result of a 5+, reduce the Titan’s Resonance by 1.

I would initially peg Titans as having a Resonance track with 8-10 holes. This would allow for you to consistently use the abilities for about 4-5 turns, or to push harder at the expense of staying power.

 

Now I've been spending today trying to progress some of the Mechanics/Weapons (hence the Resonance idea above). So here are my thoughts on the Eldar critical hits (Legs would be basically identical, so I've not replicated them):

Critical Hit Damage Effects

• Infinity Circuit Damaged: Any Command checks made by the Titan have a -2 modifier.
• Targeting Matrices Cracked: Any Hit rolls made for the Titan’s attacks have a -1 modifier.
• Steersman Wounded: At the start of each Strategy phase, roll a D6. On a result of 1, the Titan takes Shutdown orders. Additionally, the Titan automatically fails any Command checks it makes.
• Soul Stones Fractured: At the start of each Strategy phase, roll a D3. On a result of a 1, the Titan gains one Resonance.
• Holofield Vanes Damaged: The Titan’s Holofield inflicts no penalty to incoming attack rolls when the Titan is stationary and only a -1 penalty when it has moved.
• Holofield Overload: The Titan’s Holofield provides no benefit against incoming attacks.

 

And to go with it, more complete Holofield rules:

Holofields

Any Hit rolls for attacks made against this model have a -1 modifier. If the model has moved during the previous Movement phase, then apply a -2 modifier instead.

 

 

Phantom Titan Weapons

Name	Short Range	Long Range	Dice	Strength	Traits	Arc	Points
Brightlance Array	6"/-	18"/+1	6	5	Carapace, Rending	Fixed Forward	10
Firestorm Array	12"/+1	18"/-	16	3	Carapace, Rapid	Fixed Forward	5
Pulse Laser Array	12"/-	24"/-	8	4	Carapace	Fixed Forward	10
Phantom Missile Launcher	12"/+1	16"/-	6	5	Carapace, Ordnance	Fixed Forward	15
Prism Cannons	18"/+1	32"/+1	2	7	Carapace, Rending	Fixed Forward	10
D-Cannons	6"/-	12"/-	1	X	Carapace, Warp	Fixed Forward	20
Vibro Cannon	9"/+1	18"/-1	6	1	Carapace, Sonic, Voidbreaker (2)	Fixed Forward	15
Phantom Pulsar	21"/-	38"/-	D3+3	8	-	Forward	55
Distortion Cannon	12"/-	24"/-	1	X	Blast (3"), Warp	Forward	45
Power Fist	2"/+1	-	3	12	Concussive, Melee	Forward	25
Power Glaive	2"/+2	-	D3+2	10	Melee	Forward	25

 

Revenant Titan Weapons

Name	Short Range	Long Range	Dice	Strength	Traits	Arc	Points
Brightlance Array	6"/-	18"/+1	3	5	Carapace, Rending	Fixed Forward	5
Firestorm Array	12"/+1	18"/-	8	3	Carapace, Rapid	Fixed Forward	0
Pulse Laser Array	12"/-	24"/-	4	4	Carapace	Fixed Forward	5
Revenant Missile Launcher	12"/+1	16"/-	3	5	Carapace, Ordnance	Fixed Forward	10
Prism Cannon	18"/+1	32"/+1	1	7	Carapace, Rending	Fixed Forward	15
D-Cannon	6"/-	12"/-1	1	X	Carapace, Warp	Fixed Forward	15
Vibro Cannon	9"/+1	18"/-1	3	1	Carapace, Sonic, Voidbreaker (2)	Fixed Forward	10
Revenant Pulsar	18"/-	32"/-	D3+1	8	-	Forward	20
Sonic Lance	9"/+1	18"/-1	6	2	Sonic, Voidbreaker (2)	Forward	20

 

Sonic: Increase the Strength of hits caused by this weapon by the number of hits inflicted.

 

So there are a few bits to explain in here. First off I picked a selection or regular Eldar heavy weapons that felt like the kind they would have on titans. Some haven't been included (namely Starcannons and Shuriken Cannons) due to the similarity in their properties when considering only vehicle targets. The orange weapons are the heavier vehicle mounted or support weapons that might also work, albeit in lesser numbers than the regular heavy weapons.

 

Sonic is now it's own trait. I played with the idea before, but was trying to keep new additions of this kind to a minimum. But I also wasn't particularly happy with how the flamer approach was feeling. This feels more evocative of how multiple sonic weapons focusing on a target can rip it apart, which the other just didn't. The Voidbreaker trait on those weapons is to make it so they can always be effective shield breakers even with a single rolled hit. Because the Strength 1, +1 for a hit, +2 for the Voidbreaker hits gives enough strength to pop shields. It also doesn't make them any more effective against unshielded targets, which is nice.

 

Well that's all for today. I'm particularly interested in knowing what you think of the Resonance idea, is it worth pursuing? Also the weapons lists, should they be expanded? Did I miss something quintessentially Eldar, or should they have all weapons available to all their titans? Look forward to your responses.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Grifftofer

[Captain Idaho]

I think you might need an Imperial Laurel for your work today...

[noigrim]

When you are finished yoy can compile all rules in a pdf

[spu00sed]

grifftofer I really like your weapon selection. One thing I want to say is that I can’t see the synergy between the weapons. Using the imperial titans as a reference, night rate of fire low strength weapons are used to strip shields, then the higher strength wepoans damage the enemy engine.

 

With your profiles the high RoF weapons are short range and the high DPS are long range. I would make one or two of the carapace weapons longer range.

 

Also the puslars look really good. A pair of them pump out 6+2D3 strength 8 shots, they can strip shields and damage titans, also can place shots to focus on damaged areas.

 

Still love most of what you have done

[Captain Idaho]

I think the Pulsar is good enough to strip shields at a distance.

 

I'm not sure on the 16 dice S3 Firestorm Array. Great against infantry and tanks in the future perhaps but S3 won't scratch void shields and is going to struggle even against Knights. For 5pts extra you can get the more useful Pulsar array.

[Grifftofer]

When you are finished yoy can compile all rules in a pdf

This is the plan. I intend to compile all the rule additions as well as pages with the terminals, weapons cards etc into a single pdf that people can use however they like.

 

grifftofer I really like your weapon selection. One thing I want to say is that I can’t see the synergy between the weapons. Using the imperial titans as a reference, night rate of fire low strength weapons are used to strip shields, then the higher strength wepoans damage the enemy engine.

 

With your profiles the high RoF weapons are short range and the high DPS are long range. I would make one or two of the carapace weapons longer range.

 

Also the puslars look really good. A pair of them pump out 6+2D3 strength 8 shots, they can strip shields and damage titans, also can place shots to focus on damaged areas.

 

Still love most of what you have done

Yeah. I wasn't following the Imperial weapons specifically for the carapace weapons. I was trying to match more with the fluff of the weapons and then frame them in the AT ruleset with some minor caveats (the main one is that I feel that, generally, anything that would be S1-10 in 40k, should fall in the S1-6 range in AT, S7+ should be more for the big D weapons).

 

I'm up for giving one or two longer range carapace weapons and definitely the balance of all the weapons is something that needs to be messed around with.

 

Specifically on the Pulsars: I have messed up on the Revenant. The Phantom's pulsars are about where I would want them to be, but the Revenant should only be D3+1 shots, and have slightly shorter ranges. Howevere, I do think that Pulsars are probably the Eldar weapon of choice for titans, other weapons may give more power, but the pulsar is to my mind about it's flexibility.

 

I think the Pulsar is good enough to strip shields at a distance.

 

I'm not sure on the 16 dice S3 Firestorm Array. Great against infantry and tanks in the future perhaps but S3 won't scratch void shields and is going to struggle even against Knights. For 5pts extra you can get the more useful Pulsar array.

I can see your point. I was going to have it be 0 points, like the Revenant version, but felt I couldn't give 16 shots (even if only S3), for nothing. I also had considered making them the mega-bolter equivalent weapon, but quickly realised that if I did the other carapace weapons would be in a poor position comparatively.

 

To clarify my thoughts on the Carapace weapons:

• Brightlances: Medium range, battlecannon strength, medium rate of fire, Rending (to show the armour defeating properties).
• Scatter Lasers (Firestorm): Shorter range, lower strength (possibly enough to strip shields), high rate of fire, possibly Rapid.
• Pulse Lasers: Shorter range, medium strength, higher rate of fire.
• Missiles: Could be long range, medium strength, medium rate of fire, Ordnance (Eldar missiles are really good), possibly Barrage.
• Prism Cannon: Long range, higher strength, low rate of fire, Rending, really high accuracy (sort of a sniping weapon).
• D-Cannon: Short range, Warp, minimum rate of fire, poor-mediocre accuracy.
• Vibro Cannon: Mid-Short range, pretty good rate of fire, low strength (made up for by Sonic), good short range accuracy, poor long range, Sonic.

Anyway, I'll make the changes to the Revenant Table to fix my mistake.

[Doghouse]

one thing that hasn't been brought up yet, Xenos Titans wouldn't have the Machine Spirit machanic that the Imperial and Traitor Titans do.

 

Orks can have their massive crews and all sorts of mismanagement/poor communication as an alternative.

 

but Eldar? do they have anything to substitute Machine Spirit stuff? 

 

An Ork communications system using something like grot riggers would be very cool.

[Grifftofer]

So the last couple of days have resulted in this first playtest document for Eldar. If you could have a look and let me know what I've forgotten (I know there will be something). I've tried to line up the Weapon cards so that if you print it double sided they'll all be in the right place but unfortunately I don't have a working printer at home to test this out myself.

 

There's a Wraithknight Banner Terminal in there too, just to round out the Eldar forces a little (I know there's the Warlock too, but that feels more like a psychic extension of the Phantom). And if people are interested in the Exodite Knight I can put some ideas together for those too.

 

Hope you enjoy these and let me know if things don't make sense or play out horribly :)

[apologist]

Looking good; I'll look forward to trying these out. Regarding base size, I'm assuming Reaver size oval for the Phantom; and 80mm round for the Revenant?

 

Initial thoughts:

My gut feeling is that the Manoeuvre characteristic is a bit high for both Titans, particularly given the Graceful rule, but that'll come out in playtesting. 

 

There's a couple of bits I'd suggest for an old-school feel (replacing references to 'carapace' with 'wings', for example), but I really like what's here.

 

To give a bit more differentiation from Imperial titans, the wing weapons (carapace slot) might be fun with ninety-degree arcs, rather than fixed forward. Again, one for playtesting.

 

Queries/errata:

There's a minor copy-paste error on the second Command Terminal, which should presumably be the Revenant Titan (currently reads Phantom). 

 

The Distortion Cannon and Vibro Cannon arm weapons have a fixed forward arc of fire – is this intentional?

 

I wonder if D-cannon (wing/carapace) and Distortion Cannon (arm) could be further differentiated in name? Perhaps 'Light Distortion Cannon' or similar for the wing/carapace?

Edited September 12, 2018 by Apologist

[Grifftofer]

Looking good; I'll look forward to trying these out. Regarding base size, I'm assuming Reaver size oval for the Phantom; and 80mm round for the Revenant?

 

Initial thoughts:

My gut feeling is that the Manoeuvre characteristic is a bit high for both Titans, particularly given the Graceful rule, but that'll come out in playtesting. 

 

There's a couple of bits I'd suggest for an old-school feel (replacing references to 'carapace' with 'wings', for example), but I really like what's here.

 

To give a bit more differentiation from Imperial titans, the wing weapons (carapace slot) might be fun with ninety-degree arcs, rather than fixed forward. Again, one for playtesting.

 

Queries/errata:

There's a minor copy-paste error on the second Command Terminal, which should presumably be the Revenant Titan (currently reads Phantom). 

 

The Distortion Cannon and Vibro Cannon arm weapons have a fixed forward arc of fire – is this intentional?

 

I wonder if D-cannon (wing/carapace) and Distortion Cannon (arm) could be further differentiated in name? Perhaps 'Light Distortion Cannon' or similar for the wing/carapace?

Thank you for this. I've been going a bit blind having been looking at it for so long.

• Regarding bases, I'm adding in a quick note saying exactly what you've suggested.
• You may well be right about the Manoeuvre/sidestep combo. I hope some games will give me a better idea though.
• Carapace may well get swapped out for wings later on, but I prefer using the existing terminology for now to minimise confusion.
• Interestingly I feel that the Eldar 'carapace' weapons would have a narrower arc of fire and rely on the mobility of the chassis itself to get shots in.
• Yep, not sure how that happened as the image I have says Revenant, but it's being fixed now (I'll re-upload to the same link when I finish this post).
• The Distortion Cannon is an error, the Vibro Cannon isn't (currently all the carapace weapons have the fixed forward arc).
• That's a good idea. I'll fix these too.

The changes should (hopefully) already be live at the same link.

[noigrim]

Can't wait to see your take on orks

[apologist]

I've finished rafting my initial thoughts for orks. Full article here, with thoughts behind it.

 

 

+ General design principles +

 

1. Being orky, Gargants should be tough, and kick out a lot of firepower. 
2. Unsubtle but entertaining, they should be generally less reliable than their Imperial equivalent, but have the potential – with luck and good planning – to outshine their opponents' equivalent War Engines.
3. Playing a mob of Gargants should feel like you are an ork Kaptin managing his krew, and reward aggressive play.
4. Playing a mob of Gargants should not be a frustrating experience.
5. Using Gargants must abide to the core rules as seamlessly as possible while maintaining character.

 

+ Inspiration +

 

The gigantic Titans known as Gargants stride at the core of the Waa-Ork. Each Gargant is a huge towering war machine of awesome destructive power. It is also a mechanical, fighting, firebelching idol in the image of the Ork war gods. The machines are served by a living crew of Orks and Gretchin, stoking the boilers and loading the guns in the Gargant’s turrets. The construction of a Gargant is in itself an act of god worship, and stands for all that is Orkish.

+ Codex Titanicus, 1st edition +

 

+++

 

 

Like many products of Orkoid military engineering, the Gargant relies on comparatively simple technology and devastatingly heavy firepower, an attitude summed up by Boss-Mek Badlug One-Leg in his oft-quoted dictum “S’gorra be dead shooty, wiv loadza gunz all over.” 

 

Orks do not rely on auto-systems to the same extent as other races, and Gargants carry a large crew of both Orks and Gretchins. The crew is led by a Kaptin, who relays orders through a body of officers. A speaking-tube is the preferred method of communication within a Gargant. Each officer is in charge of one section of the Gargant, be it a weapon, the magazine, the engine room, or whatever. 

Under the officer is a crew of Orks and Gretchins who carry out the orders passed down to them. Repair crews are composed of Gretchins, whose smaller build suits them to crawling through cramped spaces armed with wrenches and oily rags. 

 

Gargants are protected by up to eight banks of power fields. In practical terms, a power field is very similar to a void shield, but cannot be repaired - when a hit is absorbed, one field generator is permanently destroyed.

+ ibid. +

 

+ Resource management +

Gargants don't have plasma reactors (well, I'm sure one or two do, but in general, they're 'comparatively simple technology'), so I don't think it's appropriate to use the plasma reactor mechanics. On the other hand, it'd be a shame for ork players to miss out on the resource management side of the game; particularly if they're not going to have the balance of shields (since Power Fields just burn out, and can't be repaired). In addition, design principle 5 (above) means I want to stick with the core rules if possible, so we need some sort of resource generation and management that's equivalent to the plasma reactor table.

 

+ Officers and crew +

Looking over the rules from Codex Titanicus (CT) and Titan Legions (TL), the main things ork players had to manage was the krew, which fits in nicely with design principle 3. With this in mind, I'd like to look at the plasma reactor and servitor clade mechanics, to see if we can find some fun interactions. 

 

Both CT and TL had lots of different types of krew – riggers to repair, stokers to keep the engine room going, boyz who were being transported etc. Choices had to be made to take lots of riggers to keep your Gargant functioning, bosses to make sure it did what it was meant to, and so forth. It might be fun to have this level of granularity – make the ork player find the balance that works for them, and give a lot of customisation options. On the other hand, it's also quite complex; perhaps over-complicated.

 

There's a middle ground – having some krew represented by counters; others by rules; similar to the Imperials: servitor clades, Princeps etc. are fixed statistics/rules; and the plasma generator is a movable counter.

 

+ Dwindling resources +

A potential problem of having krew as your resource is that unlike plasma, they're irreplaceable. Once an ork is dead, he's dead. This ties in with the Power Fields, which also can't be brought back up. That could be bad, or it could be good. On the one hand, it means that orks have to be aggressive: their forces only get degraded, so they need to close and keep pressure up on their opponents. On the other hand, there's not much management to do beyond pre-game selection, which is a shame. What other management could there be?

 

+ Power +

Gargants do have engine rooms. 'Power' is a catch-all term for steam, coal, solar, plasma and however else the individual Gargant is made to do stuff. This is a good chance to have a manageable resource. I'd like it to work like a plasma reactor, but for both ends to be bad – if you use too much, the engine goes out and has to be re-lit. If you don't use enough, it overheats and starts fires.

 

This mechanic would interact nicely with the krew – do you drag your gunners away to stoke the boiler, or do you have to move faster than you wanted to burn off some excess?

 

It might also be a place to introduce fires, which I fondly remember as one of my favourite mechanics from previous editions. Fires would be a great way to represent Devastating Hits – rather than taking two structure points, Gargants might take one SP and a fire is started.

 

 

If any fires are still burning at the end of the repair phase, roll a D6. If the result is more than the number of fires still burning, the crew have at least managed to prevent them from spreading. If not, the fires have spread with disastrous results – roll a D6 on the Gargant Catastrophic Damage Table.

+ ibid. +

Edited September 13, 2018 by Apologist

[Captain Idaho]

Great stuff. GW needs to employ some people on this site!

[apologist]

 

*snip*

Thank you for this. I've been going a bit blind having been looking at it for so long.

• Regarding bases, I'm adding in a quick note saying exactly what you've suggested.
• You may well be right about the Manoeuvre/sidestep combo. I hope some games will give me a better idea though.
• Carapace may well get swapped out for wings later on, but I prefer using the existing terminology for now to minimise confusion.
• Interestingly I feel that the Eldar 'carapace' weapons would have a narrower arc of fire and rely on the mobility of the chassis itself to get shots in.
• Yep, not sure how that happened as the image I have says Revenant, but it's being fixed now (I'll re-upload to the same link when I finish this post).
• The Distortion Cannon is an error, the Vibro Cannon isn't (currently all the carapace weapons have the fixed forward arc).
• That's a good idea. I'll fix these too.

The changes should (hopefully) already be live at the same link.

 

 

Cheers for taking them in – PDF is looking good!

 

On reflection, the manoeuvre/sidestep thing is not only fitting for the background ('damn hard to hit!'), but is also their primary defence, so I think my hesitation was a bit premature. This also ties in with your thoughts on the weapon arcs. It's a core feature of the Eldar in general that they're a 'precision' force, so encouraging players to line up their Titan's shots properly for the full reward seems very fitting. 

 

+++

Regarding ork base sizes, my instinct was just to follow the Imperial model; but I wonder if putting them on round bases would allow some interesting mechanics? Using the Warhound arc for all the Gargants would make them comparatively easier to flank; but allow for 180-degree arcs... What do you reckon? Complication for no decent reason?

[Grifftofer]

 

I've finished rafting my initial thoughts for orks. Full article here, with thoughts behind it.

*snip*

Awesome read. And actually working along some similar lines tosome thoughts I had too (particularly around having the resource management be Crew based). I was thinking that each Gargant could have a finite crew value, but not all of that would be available at the start of the battle. Instead, as the Gargant achieves particularly orky things their morale builds and more ork/grots surface to join in the fight. Crew could be lost via using unstable weapons, or via critical hits/structure damage. The shutdown order would also give some number of additional crew from the pool as the kaptin goes below and bashes some heads together.

 

I also imagined that the crew would be assignable to various systems (repairs, speed, manoeuvre, weapons etc) to change their effectiveness. So adding more crew to the mega gatling cannon would make it have more dice, but it might lose accuracy as the crew argue over who has control of the weapon.

 

One other thought I had was that Gargants might have better armour roll modifiers on their structure than Imperials as they tend to just bolt extra armour plates onto everything (including armour plates)

 

 

 

*snip*

*snip*

 

Cheers for taking them in – PDF is looking good!

 

On reflection, the manoeuvre/sidestep thing is not only fitting for the background ('damn hard to hit!'), but is also their primary defence, so I think my hesitation was a bit premature. This also ties in with your thoughts on the weapon arcs. It's a core feature of the Eldar in general that they're a 'precision' force, so encouraging players to line up their Titan's shots properly for the full reward seems very fitting. 

 

+++

Regarding ork base sizes, my instinct was just to follow the Imperial model; but I wonder if putting them on round bases would allow some interesting mechanics? Using the Warhound arc for all the Gargants would make them comparatively easier to flank; but allow for 180-degree arcs... What do you reckon? Complication for no decent reason?

The base sizes sounds like an interesting concept, but it feels like the pay-off would be relatively minor. It might also make the bigger gargants feel relatively spindly due to their comparatively smaller base (I think the next size up from 80mm is 130mm, which is perhaps too big) and if anything I feel like gargants should have more heft than other titans.

[Captain Idaho]

What sort of gunnery would we consider suitable on Gargants? Lots of ordnance but not as many larger scale energy super weapons. Like less sophisticated weapons systems?

 

Also, I'm guessing a Great Gargant will be about equivalent to a Warlord, a Gargant equivalent to Reavers (tougher but slower) and Stompas equivalent to Knights.

[Grifftofer]

What sort of gunnery would we consider suitable on Gargants? Lots of ordnance but not as many larger scale energy super weapons. Like less sophisticated weapons systems?

 

Also, I'm guessing a Great Gargant will be about equivalent to a Warlord, a Gargant equivalent to Reavers (tougher but slower) and Stompas equivalent to Knights.

That sounds fairly reasonable, though orks do have access to higher tech stuff such as Blastas and Zzzap Guns. Plus their own unique stuff like Tellyportas, Lifta-Droppas and Shokk Attack Guns which would be fun at a Titan scale.

 

I think the Great Gargant/Gargants sound about right as Warlord/Reaver equivalents. As for Knight equivalents we also have Gorka/Morkanaughts, so we could potentially have Stompas fill a near Warhound level equivalent if we wanted (perhaps Scale 5?)

[apologist]

 

Awesome read. And actually working along some similar lines tosome thoughts I had too (particularly around having the resource management be Crew based). I was thinking that each Gargant could have a finite crew value, but not all of that would be available at the start of the battle. Instead, as the Gargant achieves particularly orky things their morale builds and more ork/grots surface to join in the fight. Crew could be lost via using unstable weapons, or via critical hits/structure damage. The shutdown order would also give some number of additional crew from the pool as the kaptin goes below and bashes some heads together.

 

I also imagined that the crew would be assignable to various systems (repairs, speed, manoeuvre, weapons etc) to change their effectiveness. So adding more crew to the mega gatling cannon would make it have more dice, but it might lose accuracy as the crew argue over who has control of the weapon.

 

One other thought I had was that Gargants might have better armour roll modifiers on their structure than Imperials as they tend to just bolt extra armour plates onto everything (including armour plates)

 

Regarding ork base sizes, my instinct was just to follow the Imperial model; but I wonder if putting them on round bases would allow some interesting mechanics? Using the Warhound arc for all the Gargants would make them comparatively easier to flank; but allow for 180-degree arcs... What do you reckon? Complication for no decent reason?

The base sizes sounds like an interesting concept, but it feels like the pay-off would be relatively minor. It might also make the bigger gargants feel relatively spindly due to their comparatively smaller base (I think the next size up from 80mm is 130mm, which is perhaps too big) and if anything I feel like gargants should have more heft than other titans.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've popped some beta Fires rules up on Death of a Rubricist – I'll copy them over here for easy reference in a bit – and I'm working on the crew/resource mechanic now. Interesting idea on replenishing crew; I'll bear it in mind. Your thoughts on changing effectiveness depending on the amount of crew assigned has a lot of potential, if we can work out a way to stop it being too complicated. My current thought is to have a number of krew (commensurate with the Scale value of the Gargant) as a dice pool, which then must be assigned. 2–5 allows the system to work as standard; a 1 means it operates badly, and a 6 gives it a boost. You always count the highest number, so having more krew protects you from unlucky 1s (as you can assign a spare crew mob to oversee them).

 

A simple mechanic that can be done in the Strategy Phase, and one that brings in the 'bucket o' dice' feel that a few people have mentioned is important to create a sense of 'orkiness'.

 

You're probably right about the base sizes for orks – I agree that they need to feel chunky. Have you considered the 80mm round for the Eldar? It'd allow the comparatively slender Phantom to duck down side avenues etc. and hide from the oval-based Titans.

 

As a general rule, I think it's important to be considering the three factions together as we plan.

 

 

+ Da big gunz +

What sort of gunnery would we consider suitable on Gargants? Lots of ordnance but not as many larger scale energy super weapons. Like less sophisticated weapons systems?

 

Also, I'm guessing a Great Gargant will be about equivalent to a Warlord, a Gargant equivalent to Reavers (tougher but slower) and Stompas equivalent to Knights.

 

 

*SNIP* orks do have access to higher tech stuff such as Blastas and Zzzap Guns. Plus their own unique stuff like Tellyportas, Lifta-Droppas and Shokk Attack Guns which would be fun at a Titan scale.

 

I think the Great Gargant/Gargants sound about right as Warlord/Reaver equivalents. As for Knight equivalents we also have Gorka/Morkanaughts, so we could potentially have Stompas fill a near Warhound level equivalent if we wanted (perhaps Scale 5?)

 

 

In terms of equivalencies, yes; a Great Gargant should be roughly as big a threat as a Warlord or Phantom; a Gargant should be equivalent to a Reaver; and a Supa-stompa/Mekboy Gargant equivalent to a Warhound or Revenant. 

 

I haven't given a great deal of thought to the weapons, beyond starting with the ones from the original Adeptus Titanicus (Snapper etc.), then expanding to the later releases (like the lifta-droppa).

 

If anyone fancies drafting some primary weapon cards, I'd love to see your take on ork guns.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Apologist

[noigrim]

Belly gun range 30" dice1 str9 blast 5"

Weapons battery range 24" dice 10 str 4 rapid

Ccw dice 3 str 12 melee

Gaze of mork range 24" dice 1 str 12

[Grifftofer]

*snip*

 

I really like the simplicity of that Krew mechanic and feel its far superior to the system I suggested. It lets you have the slightly random element that feels orky as well as giving bigger titans some defence against bad rolls. It's a really streamlined idea. Maybe you could have the option of assigning a second dice to the same system, but there would be a penalty to the total due to squabbling among the mobs? That could let bigger titans have further reliability/let them supercharge certain systems. Certain traits could also modify the crew die given to them so weapons could be more/less reliable or require multiple krew to get their supercharge?

 

One other thing. I was thinking that the orky connection of colour and luck/speed etc. should be part of their rules in some way. I'm not sure exactly how, but having red ones go faster (similar to the gryphonicus reaper speed upgrade?) or purple ones being luckier (could tie into the krew system?) would be a fun little addition that could help tie in some of the less serious orky fluff too.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Grifftofer

[apologist]

Cheers! Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Perhaps the colours could be brought into clan-like rules that emulate the Legio-specific rules? e.g. Evil Sunz get a movement boost mechanic like Gryphonicus?

 

I've posted up an article about potential krew mechanics here – would be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Grifftofer]

Cheers! Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Perhaps the colours could be brought into clan-like rules that emulate the Legio-specific rules? e.g. Evil Sunz get a movement boost mechanic like Gryphonicus?

 

I've posted up an article about potential krew mechanics here – would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Clan rules equivalent to the Legio ones we've got so far would certainly be one way to go, and probably fit better in the framework of the game (leaving modelling/painting relatively open).

 

As for your crew ideas, I'm partial to the Dice allocation pool approach personally. If you were to go with the 'regional' approach it feels like you would need to have something instead to make the gargant feel somewhat chaotic in it's running. The only slight concern I have is that the dice pool approach is relatively front-loading the management of the Gargant into the Strategy phase (& End phase I guess if you intend for the dice to 'rest' in recesses on the command terminal). Because the reactor is something that changes through the turn and is part of the regular sequence, it doesn't have the same mental barriers to overcome that organising the gargant's crew will.

 

One thing that does interest me is whether this will be in addition to orders, or will this be a replacement for that? Because I could see there being certain thresholds (of number of dice, or dice totals) that give similar effects to Orders. And doing so would make it so you're only doing one thing in the Strategy phase. Plus the idea of directing your crew to certain locations and giving them specific orders do somewhat overlap thematically...

[Captain Idaho]

Olde epic had Freebooterz so there's room for an "unaffiliated" faction if folk so choose.

 

I can honestly say GW MUST move this forward into the Scouring (or even backwards into the Crusade) so we can have many a different flavoured faction. I wanna kill some Orks!

[apologist]

 

As for your crew ideas, I'm partial to the Dice allocation pool approach personally. If you were to go with the 'regional' approach it feels like you would need to have something instead to make the gargant feel somewhat chaotic in it's running. The only slight concern I have is that the dice pool approach is relatively front-loading the management of the Gargant into the Strategy phase (& End phase I guess if you intend for the dice to 'rest' in recesses on the command terminal). Because the reactor is something that changes through the turn and is part of the regular sequence, it doesn't have the same mental barriers to overcome that organising the gargant's crew will.

 

 

Incisive point. I think this is one of the things that playtesting will sort out – whether the crew need to be allocated at the start of the turn (frontloading), or perhaps move from the pool during the turn as the Kaptin (the player) wants various things to happen – e.g. pushing the reactor, power to locomotors etc.

 

The former approach will take a bit longer, but will feel appropriately 'clunky' for orks; making it harder to react to things – but potentially making you exceptional at the things you do choose to do. 

[apologist]

...and we're back! Since the B&C has been down, I've been beavering away on the orks; here's some early playtesting rules:

 

Engine War – Gargants: early playtest rules