So I went back to 7th edition.

[MARK0SIAN]

If Tau can't have multiple commanders per detachment, you can't have multiple captains, hive tyrants, daemon princes, chaos lords, jetbike captains, etc) and to get the full amount of cp for Batallion you have to have max squads.

 

Oh suddenly hordes are a little more balanced against marines with 10 man squads in so far as cp goes. Chaos might be a little :cuss though (max size 15-20).

Never mind Chaos, Custodes couldn’t even play, 10 Custodes per squad at 50+ points each? That’s over 1500 points just to fill out the troops in a battalion.

 

If you want to make people take larger squads then it would need to be done on a codex by codex basis, it’s simply not fair as a blanket rule.

[Closet Skeleton]

8th has a lot of dumb rules (mainly line of sight related) and 7th was in some ways a good game but that game was called 3rd edition.

 

 with 3 homebrew rules. 1. everything has split fire, 2. you don't have to shoot the same thing you want to charge, 3. you can charge after firing weapons other than pistols nad assault, but you are penalized with disordered charge if you do.

 

Then you weren't playing 7th.

 

 

3. I had to think much more in a movement phase. Lately, in my games of 8th edition, I've been skipping movement phase about 80% of the time (because most of the armies either deep strike or cross no man's land in T1 or are gunline where you just pray that your opponent rolls below the average), during that game I had to think much more where I want to move and how I want to move. Grabbing cover, moving at combat speed or cruising made me think more about my moves.
 

 

That might just be because you didn't know what you were doing due to being in an unfamiliar situation.

 

3. Infantry disembarking before the move.

 

Every edition after 3rd had nonsensical restrictions on transports but 7ths were the worst by far. Not being able to charge because my transport was killed on my opponents turn? Get lost.

[kombatwombat]

3. I had to think much more in a movement phase. Lately, in my games of 8th edition, I've been skipping movement phase about 80% of the time (because most of the armies either deep strike or cross no man's land in T1 or are gunline where you just pray that your opponent rolls below the average), during that game I had to think much more where I want to move and how I want to move. Grabbing cover, moving at combat speed or cruising made me think more about my moves.

This actually made me think of something - I’m a big fan of templates and was very sorry to see them go, but the argument was always that now we don’t have to spend ages measuring each model to be 1.9” away from each other to avoid death by Demolisher shell. I could see the merit in that argument, even though for me the cinematic appeal of templates was worth the extra time taken.

 

Thing is, now we spend ages measuring each model to be 1.9” away from each other and units 17.9” away from each other to block Deep Strike. Huh? What exactly did we take away templates for again? If it was just to get rid of the scatter die, then either tell people to grow up (clipping a fourth Marine with your Battle Cannon is not worth throwing a tanty over and ruining the game for everyone), or at least bring the flamer template back and maybe find an alternative to the scatter die for blast templates.

[Ishagu]

7th could be enjoyed very much if both lists were built to be evenly matched or close-to by experienced players, and no abusive combinations were taken.

 

8th edition can be enjoyed without having to do the above. It's a better system.

[Trevak Dal]

 

If Tau can't have multiple commanders per detachment, you can't have multiple captains, hive tyrants, daemon princes, chaos lords, jetbike captains, etc) and to get the full amount of cp for Batallion you have to have max squads.

 

Oh suddenly hordes are a little more balanced against marines with 10 man squads in so far as cp goes. Chaos might be a little :cuss though (max size 15-20).

Never mind Chaos, Custodes couldn’t even play, 10 Custodes per squad at 50+ points each? That’s over 1500 points just to fill out the troops in a battalion.

 

If you want to make people take larger squads then it would need to be done on a codex by codex basis, it’s simply not fair as a blanket rule.

Having seen what the Custard Bois can do...that seems both fair and balanced like taking away Jump Shoot Jump and keeping crisis suits bs4+ with guns ranged with jsj in mind. It means you can't get the full command point benefit.

 

So I guess Batallion (for 6 cp) ain't for the Custodates players eh? There are other formations/detachments.

[Montford]

7th could be enjoyed very much if both lists were built to be evenly matched or close-to by experienced players, and no abusive combinations were taken.

 

8th edition can be enjoyed without having to do the above. It's a better system.

 

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree.

[Brother Casman]

Gotta be honest, I'm not seeing the point of this thread, especially when the opening post ends with "Fight me"...

 

The bottom line is: if you and your group like 7th, play 7th. If you like 8th, play 8th. The game is yours to use and modify as you like.

[Marshal Rohr]

7th Edition without Formations was just fine. 8th without power gaming is just fine. Like DnD 3.5 and 5th Edition, play both and enjoy both when you're in different moods. When you get tired of big battles, play Necromunda and Kill Team. When you get tired of that play Titanicus. Tired of Sci-Fi? Play AoS or Blood Bowl. Nothing is mutually exclusive.

[Ishagu]

No, it wasn't fine.

 

There was free summoning, invincible units, massive disparity in power between vehicles and monsters, Eldar were even more over-powered, psychic powers that broke the game.

 

I have no idea what game people were playing if they think it was just fine on any level.

[Lord Marshal]

8th 'reset' the codex creep, which is why it's generally considered better. However as said codex creep has appeared, the cracks have very rapidly begun to appear and the detractors have become far more prominent. 7th was a bloated mess because it was trying to be 5.0++ and 6.0+ and with GW's famously abysmal balancing made worse by summoning and formations.

 

Give it another couple of years. The same thing is going to happen. Only now GW know all they need to do is reset the clock and people will come back in droves proclaiming them geniuses for pretty much just 'vanillaing' things again and that 10th or 12th is the "best edition since 8th."

[Ishagu]

Whilst the above sentiment could indeed come to pass I think it's too soon to proclaim that opinion.

 

Chapter Approved may resolve the creep completely. We could be pleasantly surprised or disappointed. It's too early to come to any conclusions. If the December CA does indeed rebalance the game and uplift less popular armies then we have nothing to complain about.

[Ficinus]

The Age of Darkness 1st edition (Horus Heresy's mildly modified version of 7th) works pretty darn great. I much prefer it over 8th. Games go a lot faster (though that might be due to more veteran players who know their rules well).

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

If Tau can't have multiple commanders per detachment, you can't have multiple captains, hive tyrants, daemon princes, chaos lords, jetbike captains, etc) and to get the full amount of cp for Batallion you have to have max squads.

 

Oh suddenly hordes are a little more balanced against marines with 10 man squads in so far as cp goes. Chaos might be a little :cuss though (max size 15-20).

Never mind Chaos, Custodes couldn’t even play, 10 Custodes per squad at 50+ points each? That’s over 1500 points just to fill out the troops in a battalion.

 

If you want to make people take larger squads then it would need to be done on a codex by codex basis, it’s simply not fair as a blanket rule.

Having seen what the Custard Bois can do...that seems both fair and balanced like taking away Jump Shoot Jump and keeping crisis suits bs4+ with guns ranged with jsj in mind. It means you can't get the full command point benefit.

 

So I guess Batallion (for 6 cp) ain't for the Custodates players eh? There are other formations/detachments.

It is not fair to say one army can never have more than 4CP in a match. Describing a nerf to one unit as justification for gimping an entire army is not a fair comparison.

 

Besides, the only other detachments available would be vanguard and outrider to Custodes. Termies and wardens both come in max squads of 10, so do the bikes. You literally, cannot fill out the required squads under 2000 points.

 

Your change is essentially saying, you can’t play Custodes because it would be impossible to create a battleforged army.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

No, it wasn't fine

You're free to hold that entirely subjective and personal opinion.

[Ishagu]

It wasn't subjective. The game was broken and unplayable, and a horrific experience for some players.

 

Clearly you had a sheltered view of the game or very limited experience.

[Halandaar]

You're free to hold that entirely subjective and personal opinion.

 

Not any more subjective or personal than your assertion that "7th Edition without Formations was just fine", but I notice you didn't caveat that as an opinion and just presented it as a fact. 

[Panzer]

Well it definitely wasn't unplayable. People were playing it and had fun. However there were indeed some things I'd be glad to never see again. Some of them you have already mentioned.

Doesn't mean 8th is perfect. Far from it. CP generation for mixed armies and terrain rules would be the two biggest things that come to my mind that would need fixing this edition. Both things that would be really easy to do as well but GW works slower than any bureaucracy when it comes to their balancing attempts and often misses the mark while concentrating on some more minor things instead.

[Marshal Rohr]

I wasn't responding to anyone when I put forward my opinion, so jog on Halaandar. No one has time for your pettiness.

 

 

8th Edition is fun. 7th is fun.

[Panzer]

I wasn't responding to anyone when I put forward my opinion, so jog on Halaandar. No one has time for your pettiness.

 

 

8th Edition is fun. 7th is fun.

 

I don't see how addressing someone or not has anything to do with what Halaandar said about your post being just as subjective and personal opinion. Also calling him out for pettiness when he did the same thing you did with Ishagu is kinda hypocritical lol

[Marshal Rohr]

 Ishagu responded to me. Regardless, its off topic.

[Halandaar]

I wasn't responding to anyone when I put forward my opinion, so jog on Halaandar. No one has time for your pettiness.

 

Time enough to respond obviously 

 

If you don't like being challenged on what you say to people, feel free not to comment on a public forum. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Sure thing, compadre.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

My last friendly game of 7th was me trying my HH Custodes for the first time against my buddies 40k Ad Mech force. Both of my dreadnoughts were immobilized by Grav in the first turn. There were some good parts of 7th, but the vehicle damage table and immobilization of vehicles was just the worst.

 

My last tournament game of 7th was against an 1850 point army that was almost entirely 1 unkillable unit. 2+ rerollable invulns with 3+ feel no pain and tons of chaff for look out sirs in case you actually get lucky and get a wound through. It was the worst game of 40k I've ever played. 8th edition isn't perfect. But it doesn't have anything as crazy as this.

[Ishagu]

I ran a list in 7th that had units which were mathematically impossible to destroy.

 

When my opponent asked how he could beat me I replied with: "You can't"

 

And it was true. His Tau army could not touch my units, no matter what he tried. I only did it because his Tau formation detachments had tabled every other army in the first turn. 7th was rubbish!

[Beams]

We had stopped playing 7th, because the power gap was insane.

 

I could fire my entire sisters and guard army at a single Iron Hands Space Marine Captain who would shrug it off no problem, and then punch my tanks to death without breaking a sweat.