So I went back to 7th edition.

[m0nolith]

Every edition has its pros and cons. We'll see you back in 8th once you guys start taking formations.

Oh if only there was a game with the mechanics of 7th and doesn't utilize garbage things like late 7th formations.

 

*cough* Heresy *cough*

[Xwingt65]

So recently, I've been thinking more and more about 7th edition - and after a local master tournament, and ork codex previews - I said: "screw it, I wanna see if it's just my nostalgia or really 7th ed is better". So I've called my friend who started collecting wh40k just before 8th come out (1. The guy is a blast to play with and a good friend of mine, 2. I wanted some fresh perspective), and booked a table on our weekly beerhammer event.

 

He brought his necrons and I've brought my Deathwatch strike force with Guard Mech Platoon in tow.

 

I must say, it was really enjoyable.

 

We were playing 2000 pts game, that lasted for 5 turns (maelstrom of war cards), with 3 homebrew rules. 1. everything has split fire, 2. you don't have to shoot the same thing you want to charge, 3. you can charge after firing weapons other than pistols nad assault, but you are penalized with disordered charge if you do. The game ended in a draw. Some stray observations:

 

1. Deployment went much smoother. The fact that I didn't have to constantly measure 17,5" between my units, slowly deploy my screening units, and building some "castle" around a unit giving a certain aura, was a good start.

 

2. The first turn wasn't deciding. While we both had the decent ranged firepower, no one was able to blast opposing player thanks to some clever positioning, cover saves, and the way armour penetration works. Also the fact that everything has a smaller rate of fire helped.

 

3. I had to think much more in a movement phase. Lately, in my games of 8th edition, I've been skipping movement phase about 80% of the time (because most of the armies either deep strike or cross no man's land in T1 or are gunline where you just pray that your opponent rolls below the average), during that game I had to think much more where I want to move and how I want to move. Grabbing cover, moving at combat speed or cruising made me think more about my moves.

 

4. While many (about 9 out of 10 in my experience) 8th ed games are basically over by turn 3, (because in most cases one player has been crippled by the other one), here we had surprisingly a lot of stuff at the beginning of our T4. Mainly because in 7th (even with AP2/3 flying around), power armour does work (his warriors would've wiped the floor with my kill team in a single turn this edition), and if it doesn't you can still use cover. Almost all the time I or my opponent had some kind of save (that wasn't 6+), the game was much more dynamic and fun.

 

5. Ironically phases took much less of a time. Even with damn templates and blasts shooting phase still took less of a time. Who would've thought that when you don't have to roll 50 dice (or 120 for orks) for each squad game goes much quicker?

 

6. Close combat was less one-sided. With the way WS and initiative work in 7th, the combat was less decisive. And I think it is a good thing, with the way charges work in 8th, when you are charged with dedicated melee unit you can just remove your models without even rolling, here it was pleasant that my guys had even a chance to fight (they didn't kill much but it was nice either way). And because you can't hit better than on 3+, the fights weren't as predictable. It forced us to adapt.

 

7. The game ended in a draw. I played 150+ games of warhammer 8th edition, and I can't remember a game that ended in a draw.

 

8. My friend liked playing 7th more than I've thought he would have. We are already planning on playing some more.

 

 

Can you bring awful cheesy list in 7th? Yes, you can. But you can do that in 8th too. (Tzangor bomb comes to mind for example) And after today's game, I'm done with 8th. This game was more enjoyable and engaging than any other previous game in six months.

 

I'll need to play some more, but as of now - I think 7th is vastly superior than what has 8th become now. Fight me.

 

Good to hear. Play what you like.

 

Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you. No reason to end the post the way you did tbh.

[m0nolith]

 

So recently, I've been thinking more and more about 7th edition - and after a local master tournament, and ork codex previews - I said: "screw it, I wanna see if it's just my nostalgia or really 7th ed is better". So I've called my friend who started collecting wh40k just before 8th come out (1. The guy is a blast to play with and a good friend of mine, 2. I wanted some fresh perspective), and booked a table on our weekly beerhammer event.

 

He brought his necrons and I've brought my Deathwatch strike force with Guard Mech Platoon in tow.

 

I must say, it was really enjoyable.

 

We were playing 2000 pts game, that lasted for 5 turns (maelstrom of war cards), with 3 homebrew rules. 1. everything has split fire, 2. you don't have to shoot the same thing you want to charge, 3. you can charge after firing weapons other than pistols nad assault, but you are penalized with disordered charge if you do. The game ended in a draw. Some stray observations:

 

1. Deployment went much smoother. The fact that I didn't have to constantly measure 17,5" between my units, slowly deploy my screening units, and building some "castle" around a unit giving a certain aura, was a good start.

 

2. The first turn wasn't deciding. While we both had the decent ranged firepower, no one was able to blast opposing player thanks to some clever positioning, cover saves, and the way armour penetration works. Also the fact that everything has a smaller rate of fire helped.

 

3. I had to think much more in a movement phase. Lately, in my games of 8th edition, I've been skipping movement phase about 80% of the time (because most of the armies either deep strike or cross no man's land in T1 or are gunline where you just pray that your opponent rolls below the average), during that game I had to think much more where I want to move and how I want to move. Grabbing cover, moving at combat speed or cruising made me think more about my moves.

 

4. While many (about 9 out of 10 in my experience) 8th ed games are basically over by turn 3, (because in most cases one player has been crippled by the other one), here we had surprisingly a lot of stuff at the beginning of our T4. Mainly because in 7th (even with AP2/3 flying around), power armour does work (his warriors would've wiped the floor with my kill team in a single turn this edition), and if it doesn't you can still use cover. Almost all the time I or my opponent had some kind of save (that wasn't 6+), the game was much more dynamic and fun.

 

5. Ironically phases took much less of a time. Even with damn templates and blasts shooting phase still took less of a time. Who would've thought that when you don't have to roll 50 dice (or 120 for orks) for each squad game goes much quicker?

 

6. Close combat was less one-sided. With the way WS and initiative work in 7th, the combat was less decisive. And I think it is a good thing, with the way charges work in 8th, when you are charged with dedicated melee unit you can just remove your models without even rolling, here it was pleasant that my guys had even a chance to fight (they didn't kill much but it was nice either way). And because you can't hit better than on 3+, the fights weren't as predictable. It forced us to adapt.

 

7. The game ended in a draw. I played 150+ games of warhammer 8th edition, and I can't remember a game that ended in a draw.

 

8. My friend liked playing 7th more than I've thought he would have. We are already planning on playing some more.

 

 

Can you bring awful cheesy list in 7th? Yes, you can. But you can do that in 8th too. (Tzangor bomb comes to mind for example) And after today's game, I'm done with 8th. This game was more enjoyable and engaging than any other previous game in six months.

 

I'll need to play some more, but as of now - I think 7th is vastly superior than what has 8th become now. Fight me.

Good to hear. Play what you like.

 

Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you. No reason to end the post the way you did tbh.

 

Cant blame him tho.

Much of the time when you utter even a passing comment that you prefer 7th, some specific fans of 8th insist on correcting you.

 

This isn't the vast majority of fans of 8th I'm talking about, it's specific people a with specific types of personality that insist on not only on voicing their opinion, but have a need for you to have the same opinion as well. Its people who cant let others have a differentiating opinion and insist on theirs.

 

To be fair, all forums and all fandoms have members with this type of personality, and imo B&C is generally on the better side of the spectrum when it comes to this.

[Ishagu]

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

[m0nolith]

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

Responses to your posts rarely deserve any politeness as well, but here I am being nice to you 

[Antarius]

 

It will be unpleasant to play against unpleasant players regardless of edition.

I think 5th edition was the most fun for me, how's that for an unpopular opinion?

 

Frankly 5th was my favorite edition until 8th came along, so I can agree with you there too. It handled competitive play better than most editions since it was written more with that in mind too. The problem was the late edition "written for 6th" codex creep, but otherwise it was solid.

I absolutely hated the wound allocation mini-game/shenanigans, but apart from that it was a good game. My own personal golden age was 4th edition, but I've liked every edition from 2nd and onwards, with the possible exception of 7th.

[Ishagu]

 

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

Responses to your posts rarely deserve any politeness as well, but here I am being nice to you

But you know I'm filled with love deep down

[kombatwombat]

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

Odd, I interpreted that line as tongue in cheek and not inviting aggression at all. I guess tone’s a hard thing to give through a keyboard.

[Slave to Darkness]

Ya'll crazy. First is the bestest edition!!!

[MARK0SIAN]

One thing I really do wish they would do with 8th is consolidate everything. Something like a new rule book that combines the standard rules, faqs, errata, designers commentary, Chapter Approved 2017 and Chapter Approved 2018.

 

When you add in the codex, codex errata/faqs and sometimes the index for your army the bloat is already rivalling past editions.

[Slave to Darkness]

One thing I really do wish they would do with 8th is consolidate everything. Something like a new rule book that combines the standard rules, faqs, errata, designers commentary, Chapter Approved 2017 and Chapter Approved 2018.

 

When you add in the codex, codex errata/faqs and sometimes the index for your army the bloat is already rivalling past editions.

Imho that was the only downfall of 1st. You needed 5 books just for the basic rules. Not including chapter approved or extra books if you played Orcs or Chaos.

[Panzer]

Just get rid of the Index clause and you're down to the two basic books (Core rules and Codex) and the CA. Erratas/FAQs will always be there unless they print new books whenever they release an Errata/FAQ which would be ridiculous.

That's literally just one additional book compared to all the supplements and what not from before.

[MARK0SIAN]

Just get rid of the Index clause and you're down to the two basic books (Core rules and Codex) and the CA. Erratas/FAQs will always be there unless they print new books whenever they release an Errata/FAQ which would be ridiculous.

 

That's literally just one additional book compared to all the supplements and what not from before.

Printing a new one for the errata would be excessive I agree but previous editions (at least the ones I played, maybe they were prior to that) were never subject to such regular and fundamental rules changes. The FAQs weren’t as massive in terms of impact. I think Consolidating everything that’s happened since 8th launched into one book would be hugely helpful.

[Panzer]

Yeah I definitely agree that they should print a compilation at some point. Maybe once the current beta rules made it into the game for good already which will take at least half a year since we just got the BIG FAQ.

[Beams]

Just get rid of the Index clause and you're down to the two basic books (Core rules and Codex) and the CA. Erratas/FAQs will always be there unless they print new books whenever they release an Errata/FAQ which would be ridiculous.

 

That's literally just one additional book compared to all the supplements and what not from before.

I like the index clause - Codex's are for everyone, and get you playing what's in the box. Indexes are the Dusty apocrypha, containing stuff that your going to have to work a lot harder to make. It's like rules for converters.

[Excessus]

I mostly play Horus Heresy right now, and the basic rules of 7th has never been an issue (except when your quad mortars dish out 12 scattering small blasts that takes forever). It was always the detachments and formations that were the big mess-up they did.

 

Personally I'm hoping they incorporate some of the rules of 8th into HH1, like AP modifiers and multiple damage. A much smoother system than the binary system in 7th. I would love for them to incorporate the good old pre-3rd ed terminator save on 2d6 too but that's not even remotely feasable in a non-skirmish game...

[ERJAK]

7th was a fething nightmare once you had people who actually knew what they were doing. Every edition seems smooth and simple and fun when you have two knuckleheads randomly slamming down whatever units they had within arms reach. 

 

The moment people figure out template weapon, psychic batteries, deathstars, D weapons, charge from deepstrike, Decurions, Gladius, flyers, etc the game breaks entirely. That's even ignoring the fact that the rules don't make any sense and leave giant gaping holes in logic where you honestly couldn't even begin to guess how you were supposed to resolve a situation.

 

And people like to create this false comparison of 'well there was broken stuff in 8th too!' 'Sometimes games are decided in the first turn!' and think that those are anywhere near as ungodly awful as what 7th could do.

 

People look at that Knight Castellan list and think 'wow, that was really devastating! so much firepower' and think they have any goddamned idea what it was like to go up against a fully tooled out scattpak/warp spider list or Riptide wing or Double stormsurge or Skyhammer or any of the other leaf blower lists out there.

 

And even that was nothing NOTHING compared to what deathstars became. By the end of 7th, if you didn't have an extremely tooled up list, you'd be lucky to kill a single model in a competitive environment.

 

The only time 7th was fun was when people were terrible at it. The moment you got even the most rudamentary understanding of how it functioned strategically, it became an absolute dumpster fire. I'd rather they torch 40k altogether than ever go back to 7th again.

 

There were a bunch of core mechanical issue to it too like vehicles being useless, the AP system being terrible and binary, vehicle facing only making sense for imperial vehicles, the old S/T chart being stupid, the weaponskill chart being pointless, etc. But those aren't the things that still keep me up at night.

[Kisada]

 

The only time 7th was fun was when people were terrible at it.

 

AH HA!  That must be why I'm enjoying 30k right now lol ... I never played 7th ed 40k 

[Excessus]

30k doesn't have all the ridiculously broken units, formations and detachments so there is that.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Frater TheUbikator...... seems you've been met with some small amount of vitriol on this subject... I rather enjoyed the musings on your return to 7th Ed. It certainly reminded me of some of the points I enjoyed about 7th Ed

 

I definitely liked it when I was in the mood for Apocalypse style games with crazy large (or just large, or just crazy) formations. Not so much for regular small games..... I think we could see GW's agenda to force encourage players to buy more model and build larger armies. I do think 8th Ed returned 40K to a certain level of sanity and I was really enjoying regular games once again..... that is, until all the codices came out without any level of adult supervision. Alas, my beloved Space Marines are almost unplayable with all the zany stats and species specific rules. I don't think SM's were being specifically targeted for persecution, I just think there has been a serious lack of crosschecking on the part of editors and I don't think Chapter Approved will be able to correct this problem (I hope I'm wrong on this). I was seriously thinking about digging down deep into my heart of darkness and dusting off my Dark Eldar army ..... but maybe I'll give 7thEd. a look for some larger games.

 

In the mean time Kill Team has enjoyed a lot of play in my local gaming community, and that has given my boys in blue a new lease on life. Hope you continue to enjoy 7th Ed. I will continue to hope GW balances 40K in the same way I hope for world peace

[Morticon]

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

 

Not asking you for your thoughts on the matter, Frater - i'm telling you to get in line with B&C posting expectations or take it elsewhere.

[templargdt]

I played my first game of 8th edition yesterday and I didn't really enjoy it very much.  I just don't like the aura of characters focus of it.  I started right at the begining of 5th which was okay but trying to kill tanks with meltaguns got old.  I guess I liked 6th or 7th the best then.

[Brother Tyler]

The topic itself set the tone on the discussion. When I see silly "Fight me" line I don't feel the topic creator is deserving of politeness.

 

A much more mature and rule-compliant reaction to a topic that you think is silly would simply be to ignore it. Alternately, you could provide a well-reasoned response that constructively points out shortcomings in the OP's argument (without being insulting or condescending).

[Pacific81]

I would go with Epic over anything 28mm-related, but there you go 

 

In all seriousness, you're now gaming with the benefit of 30 years of differing rulesets leading up to what we have now. The game has changed a lot over the years - as long as your hobby doesn't rely on short term pick-up-games against people you don't know or tournaments find some like-minded friends and do some experimenting, you'll probably find something that feels to you like a marine fighting an ork should look like.. 

[m0nolith]

8th has been the most decisive rule set Iv come across in my time gaming, and yes that includes 3rd.

It's fortunate that 7th fans can continue playing a supported system of 7th in the way of 30k, but unfortunately there is still the massive buy in price of FW that they have to get past, even more now since the price hike.

The gaming landscape really is big enough for both systems to co exist. I only wish the GW would capitalize on this demand for 7th based systems by creating more 30k plastics and thus making the buy in to 30k a lot cheaper.

 

A plastic Battleforce box of existing plastics would be great too.