Seige of Terra series news

[Huggtand]

One thing I'm utterly stoked at is the prospect of is Graham Mcneill getting his siege on, and hopefully giving us Storm Of Iron turned up to 11

 

What I would like to see, that I think has been somewhat lacking in the HH series, is the chaotic influences on the traitor legionaries.

 

One of my strongest impressions of the siege of Terra in the old lore, is the shock and horror when the defenders finally see the adversares disembark. Their former comrades twisted creatures, bodies warped by the energies of Chaos and their minds twisted by their devotion to the dark powers. Titan legions that are mutated, half organic machines with their crew melded to the titan. A sea of mutants, cultist, daemons, beastmen, minotaur´s and trolls crashing against the walls. An epic nightmare from mankinds darkest imagination.

 

If we have a siege like that I will be very satisfied 

[TheRealMcCagh]

I'd like to see the resolution of Narek's arc, even if it's just a short or something. I'm not sure how I got invested in such a tertiary character in a rather disappointing arc (Vulkan's trilogy I mean). And I hope Zephon makes his way into ADB's Siege novel, he's one of my favorite minor characters. It's refreshing to have a Blood Angel that doesn't constantly beat you over the head with Red Thirst this that and the other

[bluntblade]

I quite like the idea that we never actually learn why Zephon is called the Bringer of Sorrow, but every Blood Angel treats the title with heaps of reverence.

[Urauloth]

It's a shame about the timeline on this. I'm pretty enthusiastic about a lot of the names on the lineup for the siege and I'm happy to see Abnett is writing the finale, but 2022 means I probably won't be here to see it. On the other hand, I'll definitely get to read French's Solar War, so I'm glad he's starting the octilogy off. I love his HH writing, and his shorts have been great in setting the stage for the arrival of the Warmaster. Perfect choice to open the siege.

 

Speaking of short stories, I hope they'll continue apace in support of the main novels. Looking forward to seeing what happens with the novellas, too.

 

On the subject of Zephon; yeah, he's amazing. I think there'll be riots if ABD doesn't write more Blood Angels, at this point.

[bluntblade]

I'm hoping for Solar Auxilia and Ogryn Charonites

[nagashnee]

What scribe said. Company doesn't want to give me what i came for you vote with your wallet, borrow not buy. Buy if the works put forward justify the money. Otherwise they are welcome to cancel it.

 

Solar war is the first auto buy in a while but if it doesn't do it then the rest of the siege can stay on their shelves . The HH series wasted too much reader goodwill.

[Taliesin]

In an attempt to get vaguely back on topic are there any changes in the background people would like to see in the siege of Terra?

 

Personally I’d like to see the Sanguinius v Ka’bandha changed, after Signus the old fight seems anticlimactic and off especially if the fight is as close as in the old lore, it was never a rivalry that gripped me even as a Blood Angel fanboy and Fear to Tread failed to change this for me. Swapping Ka’bandha for angron is the obvious change, but I’m open to the author getting creative, I just want it to have the impact it should.

 

I mentioned wanting to see that change as well, early in the thread I think.

I would be all in favour of another confrontation with a Bloodthirster of course, that could still be excellent, but Sanguinius vs Angron is to me an obvious face off that they should do. It allows both parties to really let loose and is just more exciting than Sanguinius vs Kabadha part 2. And the older lore has some precedent for it.

[b1soul]

@ Urauloth

 

Are you OK mate? What do you mean you won't be around to see it?

[carlisimo]

On the topic of changes, I recently went back through some old books to see just who got in the way of the Emperor's duel with Horus.

 

The first Realm of Chaos and Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine rulebooks didn't go into that much detail. They just had the Emperor teleporting to Horus's "command bunker" with Custodes and Imperial Fists (special mention of poor ol' Yonnad) with the result we're familiar with - except that the Golden Throne is built under the Emperor's direction after his return from the fight. That's upheld through at least the 1996 2nd ed. Chaos Space Marines codex. (A retcon! ADB has betrayed us! /s)

 

Then, in 1989, the text box to an image in a random Rogue Trader article said that Imperial Guard company banners commonly depict Ollanius Pious, “The Guardsman who sacrificed his life to save the Emperor from the rebel Horus.” Not much context, but the duel already existed as mentioned above, so when else could it have happened?

 

In 1990 we got Bill King's story in the second Realm of Chaos book that says it was a Terminator. His telling changed the setting to the Vengeful Spirit, not a likely place to find a guardsman, and also added Sanguinius and the Blood Angels to the story. (The "Whitescars" had been in the story from the beginning, but they remained at the Siege itself.) A couple of years later, the 2nd edition Epic rulebooks failed to mention Custodians at all - the Emperor just teleports with two primarchs and Terminator Space Marines.

 

I can't find any more changes to the duel itself until Collected Visions in the mid(?) '00s. The codexes and even Index Astartes continued to gloss over it, even if they added detail to the Heresy and the Siege of Terra. But in Collected Visions, it was suddenly a Custodian.

 

Then came Visions of Heresy in 2013, a year after Know no Fear. By then, the Black Library team had presumably mapped out Oll Pearson's journey so we were back to the guardsman story. How will they use him? Will he actually do anything to "save the Emperor from the rebel Horus"? Can't wait to find out.

[Scribe]

I just hope by Khorne they drop the mind numbing Christianity angle of he's ever brought up again.

[Huggtand]

Just to add one more source to carlisimos list

 

In White Dwarf 161 (1993) is a big Horus Heresy background by Jervis Johnson and Bill King. This was because the release of the game Horus Heresy. The story is almost the same as from the second Realm of Chaos book but they have dropped the terminators and it´s only big E, Sanguinius and Dorn that teleports over.

[Petitioner's City]

Can I suggest something - the majority of the writers of BL are British - living, working and legally abiding by British law and civil standards in the 2010s. Thus, they write, speak and breathe European and British civil standards - including the firm and legal commitment to equality that is in British and European law and which is widely dispersed throughout our culture, and the rejection of its principles is limited generally to the far-right in our country.* Equality covers trans, gender, race and a number of other conditions, and is just part of our culture, laws and society now. To critique the writing of people operating in this socio-cultural context from a primarily American 'culture wars' lens, including deploying terms like 'SJW' which really don't exist in mainstream UK parlance, is just silly - or if it occurred in Britain potentially criminal or connotative of extremism.

 

However I am not critiquing anyone here - nor suggesting that any frater is being these things. What I am trying to do is paint a picture about how writers here generally think and thus how they might write. Further, we are talking about science fiction, where feminist, postcolonial and progressive politics, even within dystopian depictions, are a large part of the literary genre, going back to The Left Hand of Darkness and other 1960s literature which has influenced the genre on both sides of the Pond ever since. Thus complaining about what Gav does with gender identity in his writing doesn't seem to pay attention to who, where and what he is, since it ignores the conventions of not only the UK but the science fiction genre itself.**

 

* There are many dimensions to this, I am simplifying, especially the debates that erupt between generations of progressive political discourse. Further, there are issues with the enforcement of the act, with EU reports showing a lack of progress. Nevertheless, the UK is a socially liberal state, and even our conservative party is with regards to gender, sexuality and culture, more equivalent with centre-democrats. Again, this is more complicated - and it would be foolish to say we don't have big issues of sexism, racism, and more - but long ramble aside, it's important to remember where our writers live and what they are. 

** Again, it isn't always the case. But - sci-fi is commonly written of as progressive, and I am sure attracts people who want to write better futures even in dystopian societies.

[Indefragable]

I just hope by Khorne they drop the mind numbing Christianity angle of he's ever brought up again.

Arguably, such a thing adds depth to a character who has lived eons yet stayed true to his own personal belief system. It also could potentially add some interesting elements to have someone with a religious outlook be the one to sacrifice himself to save Mr Imperial Truth himself.

 

That would be true regardless of what belief system the character adheres to. But based on my comments above, it does make sense why one particular belief system fits a bit snugger than others.

[caladancid]

Can I suggest something - the majority of the writers of BL are British - living, working and legally abiding by British law and civil standards in the 2010s. Thus, they write, speak and breathe European and British civil standards - including the firm and legal commitment to equality that is in British and European law and which is widely dispersed throughout our culture, and the rejection of its principles is limited generally to the far-right in our country.* Equality covers trans, gender, race and a number of other conditions, and is just part of our culture, laws and society now. To critique the writing of people operating in this socio-cultural context from a primarily American 'culture wars' lens, including deploying terms like 'SJW' which really don't exist in mainstream UK parlance, is just silly - or if it occurred in Britain potentially criminal or connotative of extremism.

 

However I am not critiquing anyone here - nor suggesting that any frater is being these things. What I am trying to do is paint a picture about how writers here generally think and thus how they might write. Further, we are talking about science fiction, where feminist, postcolonial and progressive politics, even within dystopian depictions, are a large part of the literary genre, going back to The Left Hand of Darkness and other 1960s literature which has influenced the genre on both sides of the Pond ever since. Thus complaining about what Gav does with gender identity in his writing doesn't seem to pay attention to who, where and what he is, since it ignores the conventions of not only the UK but the science fiction genre itself.**

 

* There are many dimensions to this, I am simplifying, especially the debates that erupt between generations of progressive political discourse. Further, there are issues with the enforcement of the act, with EU reports showing a lack of progress. Nevertheless, the UK is a socially liberal state, and even our conservative party is with regards to gender, sexuality and culture, more equivalent with centre-democrats. Again, this is more complicated - and it would be foolish to say we don't have big issues of sexism, racism, and more - but long ramble aside, it's important to remember where our writers live and what they are. 

** Again, it isn't always the case. But - sci-fi is commonly written of as progressive, and I am sure attracts people who want to write better futures even in dystopian societies.

 

I did not think I would see The Left Hand of Darkness broken out haha, excellent reference.

 

To make my point re: Gav Thorpe's choices a little more clear (I hope), I was trying to respond in the context of 'people are worried there is a change in GW due to social pressures.' And that is why I mentioned other places where GW and BL has long been a place where you could find examples of diversity in the writing, then contrasted that with Gav Thorpe, just now in this current environment making that choice in writing.

 

And the authors themselves seem to be very aware, and...interested in current politics, so while I don't want to argue with your assessment (bc I don't know anything about what you are saying, not being British) it seems like its reasonable that might impact their writing, and the Siege is the series that could be most effected.

 

I obviously thought Gav Thorpe's writing was heavy-handed, but in general I have thought BL writes what BL writes without caring too much about outside influences.  My responses have more been directed to the idea that its silly for someone to think it could be a thing, or the idea that the only ones trying to impact authors are the right-wingers. To me the concern is at least something that is a reasonably discussion in the context of an upcoming series.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

Can I suggest something - the majority of the writers of BL are British - living, working and legally abiding by British law and civil standards in the 2010s. Thus, they write, speak and breathe European and British civil standards - including the firm and legal commitment to equality that is in British and European law and which is widely dispersed throughout our culture, and the rejection of its principles is limited generally to the far-right in our country.* Equality covers trans, gender, race and a number of other conditions, and is just part of our culture, laws and society now. To critique the writing of people operating in this socio-cultural context from a primarily American 'culture wars' lens, including deploying terms like 'SJW' which really don't exist in mainstream UK parlance, is just silly - or if it occurred in Britain potentially criminal or connotative of extremism.

 

However I am not critiquing anyone here - nor suggesting that any frater is being these things. What I am trying to do is paint a picture about how writers here generally think and thus how they might write. Further, we are talking about science fiction, where feminist, postcolonial and progressive politics, even within dystopian depictions, are a large part of the literary genre, going back to The Left Hand of Darkness and other 1960s literature which has influenced the genre on both sides of the Pond ever since. Thus complaining about what Gav does with gender identity in his writing doesn't seem to pay attention to who, where and what he is, since it ignores the conventions of not only the UK but the science fiction genre itself.**

 

* There are many dimensions to this, I am simplifying, especially the debates that erupt between generations of progressive political discourse. Further, there are issues with the enforcement of the act, with EU reports showing a lack of progress. Nevertheless, the UK is a socially liberal state, and even our conservative party is with regards to gender, sexuality and culture, more equivalent with centre-democrats. Again, this is more complicated - and it would be foolish to say we don't have big issues of sexism, racism, and more - but long ramble aside, it's important to remember where our writers live and what they are.

** Again, it isn't always the case. But - sci-fi is commonly written of as progressive, and I am sure attracts people who want to write better futures even in dystopian societies.

I did not think I would see The Left Hand of Darkness broken out haha, excellent reference.

 

To make my point re: Gav Thorpe's choices a little more clear (I hope), I was trying to respond in the context of 'people are worried there is a change in GW due to social pressures.' And that is why I mentioned other places where GW and BL has long been a place where you could find examples of diversity in the writing, then contrasted that with Gav Thorpe, just now in this current environment making that choice in writing.

 

And the authors themselves seem to be very aware, and...interested in current politics, so while I don't want to argue with your assessment (bc I don't know anything about what you are saying, not being British) it seems like its reasonable that might impact their writing, and the Siege is the series that could be most affected.

 

I obviously thought Gav Thorpe's writing was heavy-handed, but in general I have thought BL writes what BL writes without caring too much about outside influences. My responses have more been directed to the idea that its silly for someone to think it could be a thing, or the idea that the only ones trying to impact authors are the right-wingers. To me the concern is at least something that is a reasonably discussion in the context of an upcoming series.

Thanks for the long, understanding reply :) definitely social movements exist on all sides of these debates, but I think the UK is aided by the laws and the result that certain ways of thinking are illegal or at least really bad publicly and thus culturally our ways of thinking have changed wholesale, especially as education drives this more and more. Its not finished though, and the road isn't simple either, as rights conflict too.

 

I guess I disagree about Gav doing it wrong, except I think in contrast it does seem heavy - like how the early Trek Titan novels screamed 'look at our radical representation' in Star Trek in the early 2000s, but the rest of the line just did more normalised progressive representation that was far more effective - but maybe Titan made the rest possible? I think it was very good as an experiment and worth doing more with. Imagine if Abnett or Wraight or French did it, would people have complained? But anyway it was something editorial and the IP honchos approved too, so hopefully more.

 

Re outside influences, it is part of (I believe) a cultural change that's definitely occurred since my childhood in the 90s, the socio-cultural turn in which the authors are situated. While arguably there was some progress in the UK in cities in the 80s-early 2000s, it was definitely still hard to have mature or open discussions about minorities - sexual or racial or trans or otherwise - within majority working or middle class discussion in the 90s, and certainly we weren't as sensitive as we should be, being various forms of phobic. There was also homophobic laws like Section 28 ans unrepentent systemic racism.

 

Today, the BBC, the press, the law, education, colleagues and friends ensure we are more open, sensitive and empathetic - or at least vocally so, I guess. This change definitely snowballed through the 90s into the 2000s, with equality making it default by the end of the labour gov and the SNP and Tories legalising gay marriage being one final solidification. This was when most of the current stable of BL were younger - during their education or training or early career, in other words. Others like Abnett are older but have children in UK education and Nik Vincent's feed and blog are also a good picture into the Abnett-Vincent household. Many, like Abnett, Swallow, etc., also write for various other progressive outputs (Doctor Who, Star Trek, etc).

 

Now the far right, as well as a disgruntled anti immigration, and an anti modernity movement, do all exist (together and separately)... But I am not sure its part of GW, given its excellent moves to more inclusive and representative depictions.

[caladancid]

 

Thanks for the long, understanding reply definitely social movements exist on all sides of these debates, but I think the UK is aided by the laws and the result that certain ways of thinking are illegal or at least really bad publicly and thus culturally our ways of thinking have changed wholesale, especially as education drives this more and more. Its not finished though, and the road isn't simple either, as rights conflict too.

 

I guess I disagree about Gav doing it wrong, except I think in contrast it does seem heavy - like how the early Trek Titan novels screamed 'look at our radical representation' in Star Trek in the early 2000s, but the rest of the line just did more normalised progressive representation that was far more effective - but maybe Titan made the rest possible? I think it was very good as an experiment and worth doing more with. Imagine if Abnett or Wraight or French did it, would people have complained? But anyway it was something editorial and the IP honchos approved too, so hopefully more.

 

Re outside influences, it is part of (I believe) a cultural change that's definitely occurred since my childhood in the 90s, the socio-cultural turn in which the authors are situated. While arguably there was some progress in the UK in cities in the 80s-early 2000s, it was definitely still hard to have mature or open discussions about minorities - sexual or racial or trans or otherwise - within majority working or middle class discussion in the 90s, and certainly we weren't as sensitive as we should be, being various forms of phobic. There was also homophobic laws like Section 28 ans unrepentent systemic racism.

 

Today, the BBC, the press, the law, education, colleagues and friends ensure we are more open, sensitive and empathetic - or at least vocally so, I guess. This change definitely snowballed through the 90s into the 2000s, with equality making it default by the end of the labour gov and the SNP and Tories legalising gay marriage being one final solidification. This was when most of the current stable of BL were younger - during their education or training or early career, in other words. Others like Abnett are older but have children in UK education and Nik Vincent's feed and blog are also a good picture into the Abnett-Vincent household. Many, like Abnett, Swallow, etc., also write for various other progressive outputs (Doctor Who, Star Trek, etc).

 

Now the far right, as well as a disgruntled anti immigration, and an anti modernity movement, do all exist (together and separately)... But I am not sure its part of GW, given its excellent moves to more inclusive and representative depictions.

 

 

Did we just have a polite, reasonable, friendly discussion and exchange of differing opinions about politics (in reference to our favorite hobby) on the internet?!?!

 

Now comes the true test...Magnus did a few things wrong.

 

-edited for 30k humor.

[Rob P]

Off topic: Can we change the title to ''Siege of Terra series'' news?

 

On topic: I've got over my initial annoyance about the HH developing into the Siege of Terra series.

 

I'm keen to see more of the White Scars and the conclusion of the Perpetuals shenanigans. I would like to see Lorgar rock up and f-you everyone for not giving him the respect he deserves (but I don't honestly expect that!). I would like to see some surprises and see Sigismund go full Diomedes on the traitors. I'd love some mirroring in the final book to Horus Rising e.g. I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor. I'd like some more mirroring between past Horus and current Horus (perhaps in the book that ends with Sanguinius getting deaded). Wouldn't mind if we are left with a grey area on the Emperor's motives and perhaps even the bit where he perma-kills Horus.

 

Fun stuff to come. Hope it's a tight series. Hope it doesn't go on for too long and lose it's spark like HH has a little.

[Petitioner's City]

Did we just have a polite, reasonable, friendly discussion and exchange of differing opinions about politics (in reference to our favorite hobby) on the internet?!?!

 

Now comes the true test...Magnus did a few things wrong.

 

-edited for 30k humor.

Why indeed, yes and yes! ;)

[RikuEru]

Now comes the true test...Magnus did a few things wrong.

 

-edited for 30k humor.

BY THE EMPEROR, HOE can you say such a unrefined statement! He did EVERYTHING wrong!

 

(Joking, of course. Kudos to you two for the proper, eloquent, friendly discourse you had. It was interesting to read, as I never thought about that angle in regards to GW/BL!)

 

 

Now to steer this back on topic:

 

First: I hope this does well enough to warrant a Scouring Series of books. And further shorts and books in the Great Crusade and HH Era, retroactively.

 

Second:

How would people feel if Books are NOT written by a single author? But two, because that way more authors could participate and - with the right editing and cooperation - could combine their strenghts (and 'favourite' Legions/Characters?)

...of course all of it would be done under the most IDEAL circumstance. (I know this could go horribly wrong in so many ways, no need to paint that picture...)

[Indefragable]

 

the result that certain ways of thinking are illegal

 

 

That is what keeps me up at night more than anything else. Any party or political persuasion that asserts this, no matter how or why they position it, can be of any good in an open society. Otherwise we get ever closer to the era of "blessed is the mind too small for doubt" for realz. And that is truly terrifying.

 

I would say "now back on topic," but if war is politics by other means, than the Siege of Terra,  and the entire HH is simply a political discourse.

 

That's as much political commentary I will say.

 

********

 

For the novel series, I am balancing my hopes/dreams/expectations of "more spotlight on factions that have been conspicuously underrepresented" throughout the HH an "give us the best darn narrative possible, regardless of who-what-when-where-how." I would like to think they are not mutually exclusive.

 

EDIT: typos

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

the result that certain ways of thinking are illegal

 

That is what keeps me up at night more than anything else. Any party of political persuasion that asserts this, no matter how or why they couch it, can be of any good in an open society. Otherwise we get ever closer to the era of "blessed is the mind too small for doubt" for realz. And that is truly terrifying.

(Final off topic ill try!) True, that is a worry always, although I think it is always part of society - there are always thought crimes, to do with rights, ideas of treason, religion, race, etc., throughout history, stated or unstated in the law. Further, our laws are anthropological, situated in socio-cultural environments rather than being immutable truths - so while i agree with the equality legislation I've outlined, and human rights more generally, I understand that is due to my time and place in history. Which makes my head hurt too, because rights are in common parlance immutable & universal :s

 

However, when I used 'thinking' here I didn't mean literal thoughts - more like systems (like racist systems, for example) - which large-scale law makes less and less feasible because they can't be verbally expressed without censure (for example, that UK Nazi couple).

[Scribe]

 

How would people feel if Books are NOT written by a single author? But two, because that way more authors could participate and - with the right editing and cooperation - could combine their strenghts (and 'favourite' Legions/Characters?)

...of course all of it would be done under the most IDEAL circumstance. (I know this could go horribly wrong in so many ways, no need to paint that picture...)

 

 

There are only 3 authors I would trust to do this, and 2 of them cannot match the 'tone' of the other. I dont think it would work out.

[DukeLeto69]

So brothers a couple of questions now that The Horus Heresy is clearly a brand as much as a story (yeah I know you know)...

 

We have:

 

The Horus Heresy (main series)

 

The Horus Heresy: The Primarchs

 

The Horus Heresy: The Siege of Terra

 

So do we reckon we ar going to get:

 

The Horus Heresy: The Scouring ?

 

The Horus Heresy: The Great Crusade ?

 

Also would these sub-series under the brand of HH have been a better approach to the main series such as:

 

The Horus Heresy: Battles of Isstvan

 

The Horus Heresy: Imperium Sedundus

 

Etc

 

Not saying it would have been better but curious what people think?

[Taliesin]

I'm fully in favour of Horus Heresy: The Great Crusade, definitely that period I'd love to see expanded on.

I'd also love stuff set even earlier, and from what I've seen I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[DarkChaplain]

I think that kind of thing wouldn't have worked for two reasons: The individual story arcs flow from one into the next in a way that wouldn't lend itself well to a proper label lice "Isstvan Arc" (look at how Fulgrim ramps up from the Great Crusade into Isstvan III and V, or The First Heretic spans decades before hitting the Dropsite Massacre), and secondly, that kind of labelling would have inevitably fractured the series into pieces that would appear more or less skippable by default (like Imperium Secundus), which would then result in parts of the readership missing out on big chunks of the narrative and going from A to C or even D, wondering about the intervening character development etc.

 

We already had that discussions about the Astronomican being gone by Dreadwing - something that flew under the radar until Titandeath spells it out more clearly, apparently. And that's just a minor scheduling conflict. Imagine having to explain why Fulgrim is suddenly a Daemon Primarch because of something like Angel Exterminatus ending up flagged as a Shattered Legions / Sysypheum arc novel, for example. It's hard enough going into Angels of Caliban for the Dark Angels arc and being confronted with all the Imperium Secundus stuff.

 

Even with The Primarchs, I feel like Warhawk of Chogoris should've probably been part of the series more officially, because of how it synergyzes with the rest of the Scars arc, while on it's own, it can be a bit lackluster as a narrative piece.

 

If anything, I think they should've been clearer with the labelling of the series they were using when talking about it in afterwords, interviews and at events, like the Age of Darkness that even changed the epigraph in the novels. We had The Gauntlet being mentioned around the 30s, being the rush to Terra for the various factions, for example. They could've probably stuck with those terms as subtitles for books x to y, and y to z, without much issue, with the anthologies maybe being set apart unless they were thematically driven, like The Silent War or Mark of Calth.