Slasher956 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 On Custodes and Primarchs, Valdor (the absolute pinnacle of Custodes) is the only Custodes regarded as approaching primarch Grab a random Custodes from The 10,000,and he's gonna get pasted by a primarch eh, there was that story with those two Custodes who fancied their chances against Dorn and his retinue Confidence to the level of arrogance. Just because you believe you stand a chance doesnt mean that you actually do! However from the codex stuff that I've read it does make most sense that size wise is custode, thunder warriors, astartes, human Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 @ D3L Dorn said "I'd hurt you." The Custodes say "You'd try." Doesn't mean anything beyond Custodes show primarchs less respect Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 It's no secret that Custodes think little of Primarchs. They are the ones closest to the Emperor, his most perfect creation. Primarchs are monsters he created and that partially fell to chaos proving their inferiority in their eyes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Custodes think they can take a Primarch and a Primarch thinks he can effortlessly paste Custodes? Testosterone leads to smack talk? Color me shocked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 The Custodes are definitely not on a par with a Primarch, although they wouldn't be scared of one either. We've seen plenty of moments in the fictions where a Primarch takes on foes that might be beyond a Custodian Guard. It happens often enough in Dark Imperium 1 and 2... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Well if you get enough guardsmen, presumably you could kill a primarch... So having a bunch of Custodates come down on one would do the trick too (might be an argument of economics though since Custodates wear armor that's worth planets...the :cuss, that is just dumb. So when Jetbike Billy gets a lascannon facial and it blows him away, is that basically like the Rebels blowing up the Deathstar in terms of resources lost?) 5000 guardsmen just Crater at Petersburg style (US civil war) lighting a primarch up, he'll go down. Angron about got taken out by Leman Russ's space wolves (at the cost of Leman) in their weird and wasteful (in legion lives and assets) dick waving contest/"lesson" Leman felt the need to teach about how wasteful and reckless Angron was being... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5192857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 I think they just have zero conditioning or tendency to be deferential to a primarch. A primarch versus a squad of Custodes is probably like a Space Marine versus a squad of SoB Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 A primarch versus a squad of Custodes is probably like a Space Marine versus a squad of SoB So, over pretty quickly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Most likely. Pretty much every Primarch has his own catalogue of deeds where he goes through enemies like Ra (a Tribune, who at this point had been fighting daemons and traitor marines for year) does through Astartes in MoM. Admittedly I do believe that the Custodes' power has been dialled a notch higher than it should've been in the lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 It's a fun conversation. I've found a lot of it has made me reflect on the deep history of this game. Sometimes it really blows me away that Disney hasn't snatched this up and turned into a 3 movie a year money machine. ;) @ D3LDorn said "I'd hurt you."The Custodes say "You'd try."Doesn't mean anything beyond Custodes show primarchs less respect This is just me.... I don't know the origin of those words or the idea that a few Custodes 'fancied their chances' against Dorn and his retinue. However, I think if I were writing such a scene it would have went more like this: Dorn - 'I'd hurt you' (I'm still not sure what this was in response to) The Custodes- After a few second thought; 'It's a futile discussion. What's for dinner?' I have these conversations with my wife all the time. (Not exactly "I'd hurt you") And whenever I'm being probed for debate, or friction I will take the high ground with her. :D Seriously though the reason I say this is most of the -great- Custodes fiction has well cemented the Custodes psyche. We have an idea of how they think and yea, they seem to think of themselves as closer to the Emperor but rightfully so. He's referred to how difficult a Custodes is to make and they've been his right hand, his left hand, and his beat stick for a loong time. A know a Custodes first thinks of nearly any situation as: How does this threaten the Emperor? Everything else is a very distant second. I believe a Custodes would see himself as severely handicapped by a Primarch (most of them anyway). But I could never just write off a Custode. But as far as the threat or implication? A Custode would never bite. IF there was a threat to the Emperor? Then heck yea, but you'd see them willingly give their life to kill that Primarch and I think it is possible, but not likely. (Heck an Alpha Legion marine could have killed Guilllman in Imperium Secondus.) On the note of all these dudes, including the Thunderwarriors.... wouldn't it be something if Cawl had that recipe? He's mentioned that he has pretty much everything for all the Legions to Guilliman. Or imagine if Chaos got a hold of the Thunder Warrior recipe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 It wouldn't be a stretch to think he has access to the lab itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Thinking about it, having Guilliman and Cawl is like having the Emperor back, just it is all handicapped a little. You have the statemenship of Guilliman, the fighting prowess of Guilliman and the technology/research of Cawl. None of them are as good as having the Big E back but it allows the story to continue. The only way the story was able to continue was to either let the imperium die or to let it right itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobWrath Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Sorry did someone say 'chaos thunder warrior'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Is it too late to say "...leaving a great big hole where the doorway used to be"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Sorry did someone say 'chaos thunder warrior'? Fabius Bile would have a field day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 I would love to see chaos thunder Warriors. Loyalists wouldn't go for them but Chaos has no reason not to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 Custodes simply don't respect Primarchs as much as other Imperials do...they're only deference is to the Emperor. ‘Put up your weapons,’ he said gently. The Imperial Fists smartly raised the boltguns to their shoulders. ‘I meant everyone,’ added Dorn, looking at the custodes. Amon and Haedo kept their spears aimed at the canopied throne. ‘My lord, Pherom Sichar is a traitor and spy,’ replied Amon carefully. ‘He is using the networks of his extensive mercantile empire to communicate with the Warmaster and his benighted rebels. We have just cause and evidence enough to hold him and interrogate him. He will come with us.’ ‘Or?’ asked Dorn with a soft, almost amused smile. ‘He will come with us, my lord,’ Amon insisted. Dorn nodded. ‘An object lesson in determination and loyalty, eh,Archamus?’ he said. ‘Indeed, my lord,’ replied the commander of the huscarls. ‘They would fight six Astartes and a primarch in order to accomplish their duty,’ Dorn said. ‘My lord,’ Amon said, ‘please stand aside.’ ‘I’m half-tempted to let you attempt to go through me,’ said Dorn. ‘I would, of course, hurt you both.’ ‘You would try,’ replied Haedo. ‘My lord,’ he added. ‘Enough,’ said Dorn. Keep in mind that this scene happens in Blood Games, a story that says Custodes are only marginally superior physically to Astartes Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes. The greatest differences lay in the mind. Though custodes shared a familial bond through the circles of their order, it was nothing like the keen brotherhood that cemented the Legions of the Astartes. Custodes were far more solitary beings: sentinels, watchmen, destined to stand forever, alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 The Custodes are definitely not on a par with a Primarch, although they wouldn't be scared of one either. Actually, funnily enough according to 'expertly' balanced Forge World rules, well optimized no-name Custode equivalent of a captain can take on almost any non-psyker primarch, chop him to bits, then eat his terminator retinue for dessert no problem. Easily beating 2-4 times (depending on Legion) of his own points in enemy units, and only has problems if he has to fight all of them at once. Isn't 7th edition wonderful? I would love to see chaos thunder Warriors. Loyalists wouldn't go for them but Chaos has no reason not to. Eh, I can't see CSM dabbling in something that can upstage or replace them, especially with their arrogance and belief in being pinnacle of everything. Even Bile, deviant as he is in wanting to create something better, would take one look, conclude it's really shoddy job that is well beneath him, and at best borrowed a few best bits for future research IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 @ Irbis This is a fluff discussion...tabletop rules are neither here nor there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 The Custodes are definitely not on a par with a Primarch, although they wouldn't be scared of one either. Actually, funnily enough according to 'expertly' balanced Forge World rules, well optimized no-name Custode equivalent of a captain can take on almost any non-psyker primarch, chop him to bits, then eat his terminator retinue for dessert no problem. Easily beating 2-4 times (depending on Legion) of his own points in enemy units, and only has problems if he has to fight all of them at once. Isn't 7th edition wonderful? :rolleyes: I would love to see chaos thunder Warriors. Loyalists wouldn't go for them but Chaos has no reason not to.Eh, I can't see CSM dabbling in something that can upstage or replace them, especially with their arrogance and belief in being pinnacle of everything. Even Bile, deviant as he is in wanting to create something better, would take one look, conclude it's really shoddy job that is well beneath him, and at best borrowed a few best bits for future research IMO.Chaos Marines CONSTANTLY dabble with things that can upstage or replace them. It's how they became Chaos marines instead of just renegades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 The Custodes are definitely not on a par with a Primarch, although they wouldn't be scared of one either. Actually, funnily enough according to 'expertly' balanced Forge World rules, well optimized no-name Custode equivalent of a captain can take on almost any non-psyker primarch, chop him to bits, then eat his terminator retinue for dessert no problem. Easily beating 2-4 times (depending on Legion) of his own points in enemy units, and only has problems if he has to fight all of them at once. Isn't 7th edition wonderful? I would love to see chaos thunder Warriors. Loyalists wouldn't go for them but Chaos has no reason not to. Eh, I can't see CSM dabbling in something that can upstage or replace them, especially with their arrogance and belief in being pinnacle of everything. Even Bile, deviant as he is in wanting to create something better, would take one look, conclude it's really shoddy job that is well beneath him, and at best borrowed a few best bits for future research IMO. Yes but in 7th edition rules a biker captain with the right relics and psychic powers was the most powerful being in the galaxy lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 And thats why this is a fluff discussion; leave the TT rules out of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5193930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 RobWrath, on 17 Nov 2018 - 2:23 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png Sorry did someone say 'chaos thunder warrior'? Fabius Bile would have a field day. I don't know that you could ever build an army/codex out of this idea, but it would be kind of neat to see it investigated. In an old WD, there was a story written around the Cursed Founding that talked about discovering a lab, or the remnants of it, and the diary of someone who was involved with the original research, before Fabius decended on the facility and used his library card to check out some interesting research. It wouldn't take too much of a stretch to infer "Thunder Warrior" type experimentation from what was written. In any case, you could probably adopt some sort of Khârn-type rules to represent a TW that had outlasted his warranty period. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5194013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 I think that it would be fluffier for the Thunder Warriors to be bigger than either, with more raw power but being precisely that - raw, compared to the refinement of their successors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5194016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 In my head canon.... primarchs would eat custodians for breakfast. While it is not the only reason I say this, part of my thinking goes to the notion of scarcity. The more plentiful things are, the less work went into them, and the less potent they are on an individual level. This is hardly flawless thinking. I want to be the first to say it. But primarchs should be able to deal with custodians fairly effortlessly, to my thinking. If custodians are so close in their potency to primarchs that with a reasonable ratio (was 10-1, or 6-1 or something floated?) they could reasonably take one down, why then are there only 20 primarchs to 10,000 custodians? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351191-a-custodes-thunder-warrior-and-astartes-walk-into-a-bar/page/4/#findComment-5194107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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