A Custodes, Thunder Warrior, and Astartes walk into a bar...

[bluntblade]

I think that it would be fluffier for the Thunder Warriors to be bigger than either, with more raw power but being precisely that - raw, compared to the refinement of their successors.

[karden00]

In my head canon....

primarchs would eat custodians for breakfast.

 

While it is not the only reason I say this, part of my thinking goes to the notion of scarcity. The more plentiful things are, the less work went into them, and the less potent they are on an individual level.

This is hardly flawless thinking. I want to be the first to say it.

But primarchs should be able to deal with custodians fairly effortlessly, to my thinking.

If custodians are so close in their potency to primarchs that with a reasonable ratio (was 10-1, or 6-1 or something floated?) they could reasonably take one down, why then are there only 20 primarchs to 10,000 custodians?

[Canadian_F_H]

To me it's never been about power in combat. It's of course a factor. But the primarchs were always much more than that. The custodes were essentially primarily the emperor's body guard and occasionally special agents and operators based purely on how much he trusted them since they were built to be worthy of his trust.

 

The primarchs all were meant to serve S purpose well beyond mere combat prowess. They are generals 1st and foremost. Their minds capable of absorbing storing and processing information about the galaxy, their armies, their enemies, science technology... Magic.

 

We all know their accolades. Guilliman is the greatest statesman. Capable of the miraculous feat of building interstellar beurocracies that csn honestly he said to be... Efficient!

 

Perturabo, Vulcan and Manus have frequently been referred to as masters of science, technology, forgecraft etc.

 

Sanguinius, Magnus and mortarion were all potent psykers amongst their other traits.

 

Perturabo and royal Dorn were clearly astonishingly competent architects and engineers. You'd have to be to design and destroy fortifications at their competency.

 

 

I digress.

 

This is a nice piece of artwork and it has stirred up quite a conversation. Not always the most pleasant however. So let's just be a little bit nicer about something that literally was "made up" and won't change your odds of survival tomorrow when you head to school or work.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, the latest background on the Custodes has that they are also philosophers and scientists, as they weren't just the Emperors bodyguards, they were his companions. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Well, the latest background on the Custodes has that they are also philosophers and scientists, as they weren't just the Emperors bodyguards, they were his companions.

Fair enough. I finished MoM not to long ago, so I know exactly what you mean.

[Lord_Caerolion]

From what I've seen though, I'd definitely agree that the Primarchs are meant to be something far more than the Custodes. Despite the greater work put into the Custodes by the Emperor, they are still modified humans. The Primarchs, on the other hand, are entirely purpose-built by the Emperor, designed from scratch, everything fit-for-purpose.

[kombatwombat]

If custodians are so close in their potency to primarchs that with a reasonable ratio (was 10-1, or 6-1 or something floated?) they could reasonably take one down, why then are there only 20 primarchs to 10,000 custodians?

For same reason there’s millions of normal cars in the world to only a few hundred Bugattis that can only go about twice as fast. When you’re near the middle of the pack, 10% more effort might translate to 10% more result. When you’re near the top, 100% more effort might translate to 1% more result.

 

From what I've seen though, I'd definitely agree that the Primarchs are meant to be something far more than the Custodes. Despite the greater work put into the Custodes by the Emperor, they are still modified humans. The Primarchs, on the other hand, are entirely purpose-built by the Emperor, designed from scratch, everything fit-for-purpose.

See now, I’m not sure that’s entirely right. Primarchs still obviously started from human genetics, that were then (extensively) modified at say an embryonic stage. Custodes also started from human genetics, that were then modified at an infant/early childhood stage. At a high level, the two processes are similar. The Emperor just started fettling with the Primarchs at an earlier stage and put much more changes in.

 

What you’re describing is a better fit for the difference between Custodes and Astartes. It says a much in Master of Mankind; the Custodes are made from the blank canvas of childhood and genetically altered to be fit for purpose, whereas Astartes are taken at adolescence and more crudely (relatively) modified to become Space Marines. The difference is expressed in how Custodes don’t require implants to get whatever extra junk they need, they grow it themselves, whereas Astartes have to have the required components surgically attached because they don’t have, as you put it, everything fit-for-purpose.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

From what I've seen though, I'd definitely agree that the Primarchs are meant to be something far more than the Custodes. Despite the greater work put into the Custodes by the Emperor, they are still modified humans. The Primarchs, on the other hand, are entirely purpose-built by the Emperor, designed from scratch, everything fit-for-purpose.

See now, I’m not sure that’s entirely right. Primarchs still obviously started from human genetics, that were then (extensively) modified at say an embryonic stage. Custodes also started from human genetics, that were then modified at an infant/early childhood stage. At a high level, the two processes are similar. The Emperor just started fettling with the Primarchs at an earlier stage and put much more changes in.

 

What you’re describing is a better fit for the difference between Custodes and Astartes. It says a much in Master of Mankind; the Custodes are made from the blank canvas of childhood and genetically altered to be fit for purpose, whereas Astartes are taken at adolescence and more crudely (relatively) modified to become Space Marines. The difference is expressed in how Custodes don’t require implants to get whatever extra junk they need, they grow it themselves, whereas Astartes have to have the required components surgically attached because they don’t have, as you put it, everything fit-for-purpose.

 

 

The fact remains though, that with the Custodes, he was working off already-born children, IE their bodies are already formed, he can just tinker with how they develop. The Primarchs, on the other hand, were designed entirely within the Emperors laboratories, where he could make whatever changes he wanted to. The Custodes are, at one point in their life, baseline human. The Primarchs never were.

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah. I always assumed he built primarchs from the genome up. That they started from DNA and a single cell embryo.

 

 

I just thought of something that throws a wrench into the works of the shaman theory.

 

I was pretty sure the emperor used his own genome when developing the primarchs... What's so special about his genome if he is just a regular human with apex level psychic ability? His genome would only be unique enough to use for the primarchs if something was special about his DNA. which implies his DNA is unique from the general population. So either his being a super psyker and mortal etc is a genetic fluke. Or it was engineered by Xenos or engineered by dark age of technology humans...

 

Dangit... Excuse me while I go fold me a tinfoil hat...

[Panzer]

Not to mention that the Primarchs have some warp stuff added that makes them something very different entirely. If I recall correctly there was a short passage in Dark Imperium where Guilliman thought about that whenever he teleported he "slowly" (as slow as things can be during a super short warp travel) begins to feel like he belongs more into that realm than into the real world. Or something along those lines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It could just be that the Shamans were a different sub-species of humanity, and the Emperor is the last member of that sub-species, which carried over to the Primarchs.

 

In fact, I remember something along the lines of around the time Homo Sapiens was coming to dominance, there was another Homo genus, one that was far more intelligent, that basically allowed itself to die out. Could be that the original writers took those as the inspiration for the Shamans?

[Finkmilkana]

It could just be that the Shamans were a different sub-species of humanity, and the Emperor is the last member of that sub-species, which carried over to the Primarchs.

 

In fact, I remember something along the lines of around the time Homo Sapiens was coming to dominance, there was another Homo genus, one that was far more intelligent, that basically allowed itself to die out. Could be that the original writers took those as the inspiration for the Shamans?

So the emperor is a non-sanctioned abhuman? No one tell certain parts of the inquisition...

[Gederas]

It could just be that the Shamans were a different sub-species of humanity, and the Emperor is the last member of that sub-species, which carried over to the Primarchs.

 

In fact, I remember something along the lines of around the time Homo Sapiens was coming to dominance, there was another Homo genus, one that was far more intelligent, that basically allowed itself to die out. Could be that the original writers took those as the inspiration for the Shamans?

So the emperor is a non-sanctioned abhuman? No one tell certain parts of the inquisition...

He's also a non-sanctioned psyker. No one tell the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy.

[Canadian_F_H]

Well... I just got to a certain part of a certain Horus heresy book... And if it is to be believe then the primarchs are more warpwrought than genewrought.

[Honda]

Well... I just got to a certain part of a certain Horus heresy book...

 

 

Which is named...?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd assumed he was talking about Master of Mankind.

[Canadian_F_H]

Nope. Read MoM a while back. I'm on "false gods"

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

False Gods is epic and fundamental to the background.

[UnkyHamHam]

I always just assumed he used his own genetic template to manufacture all these Transhuman gene lines out of hubris. With the purpose of binding them and their purpose to his through more or less family ties. Like a super human dynasty.

 

All the the "special" parts of the Primarchs can be explained likely by the science and magic that went into making them. If anything, the Emperor likely only passed his psychic potency and potential on to them, genetically. That was his contribution.

 

Perhaps they needed that potential and /or potency to allow the warp elements he used in their creation to take effect.

 

(I just thought of a great idea. Thunder Warriors with Butcher's Nails)

[General Strike]

You and I have different definitions of great ideas.

[Nocturne Noble]

I was thinking: Using the original image as a guide; do you think the disparity between the Thunder Warrior and the Astartes would be akin to the scale between a Primaris and an Astartes?  I wonder where the Primaris would fit in that line-up.

[RobWrath]

I was thinking: Using the original image as a guide; do you think the disparity between the Thunder Warrior and the Astartes would be akin to the scale between a Primaris and an Astartes?  I wonder where the Primaris would fit in that line-up.

Based on the minis, a Primaris is nearly a head taller than an Astartes.

If your average Astartes is 7-7.5 foot that'd make primaris between 8 and 8.5 feet tall. 

Custodes a foot taller again, and your 'average' Primach 10 foot or more (but I'm given to understand the Primarchs themselves vary a lot).

[Panzer]

I was thinking: Using the original image as a guide; do you think the disparity between the Thunder Warrior and the Astartes would be akin to the scale between a Primaris and an Astartes?  I wonder where the Primaris would fit in that line-up.

 

Primaris should be similar height to Thunder Warriors according to that picture, yeah.

[Canadian_F_H]

*oops wrong quote, hidden for ref...

Hidden Content

 

 

I was thinking: Using the original image as a guide; do you think the disparity between the Thunder Warrior and the Astartes would be akin to the scale between a Primaris and an Astartes? I wonder where the Primaris would fit in that line-up.

Primaris should be similar height to Thunder Warriors according to that picture, yeah.

 

*this is what I meant to quote*

 

 

I was thinking: Using the original image as a guide; do you think the disparity between the Thunder Warrior and the Astartes would be akin to the scale between a Primaris and an Astartes? I wonder where the Primaris would fit in that line-up.

Based on the minis, a Primaris is nearly a head taller than an Astartes.

If your average Astartes is 7-7.5 foot that'd make primaris between 8 and 8.5 feet tall.

Custodes a foot taller again, and your 'average' Primach 10 foot or more (but I'm given to understand the Primarchs themselves vary a lot).

don't recommend using the minis and a basis as its pretty much accepted that the scale between marines and IG isn't right to begin with. And GW has just shown us 2 chaos astartes as well as the recent DG releases that are all much closer in height to primaris.

 

Not that their height disparity isn't a valid discussion. Simply that the current astartes line does not represent them well especially since the models have clear internal scale issues as well as being the same height as Imperial guard and other humans.

[Panzer]

Nobody was talking about models tho?