Ultramarines Support (Or Lack Thereof) from GW

[DuskRaider]

Alright, so as has been mentioned over in the Ultramarines Teaser Video , there's a request for a topic dealing with GW's support of the XIIIth Legion / Chapter, the Ultramarines or as the title says, lack of support. I struggle with the idea that the Ultramarines are poorly supported, either by rules or models mainly because the entire Codex: Space Marines is written from the Codex Astartes using Ultramarines tactical doctrines for all other Chapters to follow. The reason there are divergent Chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) is because these handful of Chapters DON'T follow the strict guidelines set forth by Robute Guilliman. 

 

Furthermore, the Chapter has more characters and character models than any other Codex: Space Marines Chapter along with not only Primaris upgrade sprues but normal Astartes upgrade kits AND a box of Tyrannic Veterans... not to mention the only Loyalist Primarch. The entire Imperial plot at the moment revolves around the Ultramarines and their Primarch. What else is there to want? Some kind of Chapter-specific unit? That would go against the Codex Astartes, yeah? I'm not sure what the problem is but I would like to see the other side of the story and some opinions.

 

Let's just try to keep it civil so this doesn't get the ole Exterminatus.

[Slasher956]

You say they dont have a unique unit in the same paragraph that you mention Tyrannic Veteran* :p  

 

*ok they are now counts as sternguard or tactical marines but once apon a time (4th ed?) they had their own rules

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, they don't have rules anymore that I'm aware of but they are Chapter-specific models that are still available. Hey, I'd be okay with Ultramarines receiving Suzerain or something in 40K but at this point we don't even know if they exist anymore. If anything units like Reivers, Aggressors, Inceptors and Hellblasters could be considered Ultramarine units due to Guilliman / the Chapter creating these specialist roles and rolling them out to the other Chapters. Perhaps that's splitting hairs but it's technically true.

[Cryptix]

Also Tyrannic Veterans aren't plastic, which is the same complaint people have for other chapters, not to mention that many of the ultramarine specific characters can easily be used for other chapters.

[helterskelter]

It's almost like other strong chapters fluff has been neglected recently, ok blood angels, wolves and dark angels got their own little chunks, but compare to the entire of 8th so far: primarch return, primarch reveals his secret project, primarch puts the boot to the high lords of terra, primarch near as dammit rebuilds the 500 worlds, primarch fights Magnus and mortarion, fluff for rogue trader: primarch gave us his express permission, vigilus, already has ultras there, and now more are showing up, even dead ones because when a marine is interred in a dread, they're not dead nor are they in a fit state to be fixed properly, so unless primarch has suddenly found the keys of Hel, he's had a secondary project on the cards with Cawl. Roboute ex machina is wearing a touch thin

[Cryptix]

Yeah, they don't have rules anymore that I'm aware of but they are Chapter-specific models that are still available. Hey, I'd be okay with Ultramarines receiving Suzerain or something in 40K but at this point we don't even know if they exist anymore. If anything units like Reivers, Aggressors, Inceptors and Hellblasters could be considered Ultramarine units due to Guilliman / the Chapter creating these specialist roles and rolling them out to the other Chapters. Perhaps that's splitting hairs but it's technically true.

I do not follow your train of logic, especially considering that the original primaris aren't even ultramarines but pre-heresy novitiates kidnapped and chosen to be given the primaris implants instead,

[Ishagu]

I think because Ultramarines are on the cover of boxes (their paint scheme is easy on the eye) people mistake that for massive support.

 

The Ultras have no unique units outside of characters, they share their codex with other chapters despite being one of the most prominent forces in the lore and based on numbers of people who collect them.

 

People who don't really understand their lore say they are boring and vanilla. I believe there is a huge case for them to have unique units as they do in the Heresy game. There's nothing in the codex that says they can't have specialised or unique Honor Guard like the Blood Angels do, and not to mention the unique Terminators they deploy in 30k.

 

The TWV models really can't be counted as a unique unit. It's a few, ugly, monopose, metal casts from a long time ago and serve no purpose on the tabletop.

 

Edit: They have received a lot of lore support recently. I'm happy about that. If they get a unique codex I'd be even happier.

[DuskRaider]

 

I do not follow your train of logic, especially considering that the original primaris aren't even ultramarines but pre-heresy novitiates kidnapped and chosen to be given the primaris implants instead,

 

 

I guess. The Unnumbered were technically not bound to a Chapter but they were created at the behest of Guilliman post-Scouring (which tampering with geneseed / Astartes creation protocols would technically be heresy in the first place). 

 

@Ishagu: I don't think their sharing the codex comes from lack of support, I think it's more attempting to streamline the release schedule. Look at Black Templar, they lost damn near everything. The same could be said for Black Legion and the Traitor Legions as well, it's the same story. 

 

I don't see Ultramarines getting their own codex since Codex: Space Marines is pretty much theirs to begin with but perhaps they will eventually get a unique unit. But what of the other Chapters in the codex? Ultramarines have still received more support than any of the others and are only outdone in terms of models by the divergent Chapters. 

 

As previously stated, porting over Suzerain may be a remedy but then you have the other Chapters to take into account and also the watering down of 30K. *shrug* I see the statement that Ultramarines aren't supported as a bit silly.

[Marshal Loss]

The Ultramarines are fine as they currently are. Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes and the overwhelming majority of Space Marine chapters are moulded in the image of the boys in blue. The more you make them diverge from their vanilla unit list, the more it appears nonsensical that they're getting access to units that hundreds of other vanilla chapters don't. In the past I would have argued for GW putting "template" units in - e.g. "Hearthguard elite unit" that people can change to fit their chapter's lore, with the Ultramarines getting a named variant that functions identically to the others; but they don't believe in that sort of thing anymore.

 

I actually think GW has the right of it. Give them lots of characters, sure, make them prominent in the lore (most of us would agree they're already over-represented), but still leave them as they are. Maybe a single special unit tops, but no more. I'd like a similar approach done with the Black Legion.

 

To be clear: if GW wanted to make models for an Ultramarine Honour Guard unit or something like that, sure, why not. More smurfs for me to kill. But I strongly believe they shouldn't get access to unique units that other chapters cannot use.

[Robbienw]

There is a huge focus on them in the background and BL fiction, they certainly don't need anything more in that regard.

 

Giving them their own codex and unique unit models wouldn't really work, because they are the ultimate codex chapter and thus any wargear or squad types they get will be available to any other codex marine chapter.

 

You could do ultramarine versions of standard units with moulded on ultra iconography, that would be cool, but I am not sure GW would do it as it probably wouldn't sell in huge enough volumes.  I think the closest you will get to that is the accessory sprues they already have and a few unique models here and there like vael donartus from the deathwatch set.

 

I think the only place where you could make it work for an ultra specific unit in plastic is the Victrix Guard.  They are a primarch bodyguard unit so have a bit of scope to be different and be ultra specific.   But you don't need a whole codex for that.

[Ishagu]

They are certainly supported, but certain other chapters are supported far more.

 

Are you suggesting the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are more important than the Ultramarines and deserve more model releases?

 

The argument that RG wrote the codex and thus they can't specialise in any form is one that ignores the finer details of their lore. They aren't slaves to it, and it does not discourage innovation.

 

The Ultras have a unique way of waging war that goes beyond what other followers of the codex might do. They have stronger links and chains of command, higher battlefield synergy, etc. I could easily envision some unique command flyer or reconnaissance unit, specialised heavy firepower Terminators, etc.

 

The Ultras have also spawned some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy and deserve a unique close combat unit to show off the chapter's ability to challenge any for in any style and in any theater of combat.

[Marshal Loss]

Are you suggesting the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are more important than the Ultramarines and deserve more model releases?

 

We're saying that the Ultramarines are the template for all other Space Marine chapters and if you make things available for them then they must be available for everybody; otherwise, they aren't the ultimate Codex chapter after all. It's not about who is "more important". E.G. The Black Legion don't deserve more model releases than the Death Guard, because that wouldn't make any sense.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Are you suggesting the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are more important than the Ultramarines and deserve more model releases?

We're saying that the Ultramarines are the template for all other Space Marine chapters and if you make things available for them then they must be available for everybody; otherwise, they aren't the ultimate Codex chapter after all. It's not about who is "more important". E.G. The Black Legion don't deserve more model releases than the Death Guard, because that wouldn't make any sense.

You're saying that. GW isn't saying that (although they've portrayed them as such in the past) but more importantly the current lore isn't saying that. Guilliman's view is that strict following of the codex and inability to innovate or adapt is a weakness.

 

As of right now in the lore, Guilliman is writing a new codex and war doctrine.

[DuskRaider]

They are certainly supported, but certain other chapters are supported far more.

 

Are you suggesting the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are more important than the Ultramarines and deserve more model releases?

 

The argument that Guill wrote the codex and thus they can't specialise in any form is one that ignores the finer details of their lore. They aren't slaves to it, and it does not discourage innovation.

 

The Ultras have a unique way of waging war that goes beyond what other followers of the codex might do. They have stronger links and chains of command, higher battlefield synergy, etc. I could easily envision some unique command flyer or reconnaissance unit, specialised heavy firepower Terminators, etc.

 

The Ultras have also spawned some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy and deserve a unique close combat unit to show off the chapter's ability to challenge any for in any style and in any theater of combat.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting the divergent Chapters are more specific, they're just more unique. That's GW's doing, they wanted these 3 or 4 Chapters to be unique from what would be perceived as 99.9% of all other Astartes Chapters. 

 

Do the Ultramarines special rules represent them well on the table? I'm not too sure how you'd model something like a strong chain of command since that's more a rule thing. I'm sure in a perfect world every First Founding (and some Second I suppose) would have it's own unique Codex and model line but that's just not feasible. It's also not feasible to say Ultramarines are more deserving of a full codex and model line (of what?) than, say... Iron Hands. Or Salamanders. 

[kombatwombat]

The reason there are divergent Chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) is because these handful of Chapters DON'T follow the strict guidelines set forth by Robute Guilliman.

I Abhor the implication that the other Chapters dragged kicking and screaming into the main Marine Codex follow the strict guidelines set forth by Roboute Guilliman. It is Unclean and I will not Suffer It To Live. I will Uphold the Honour of the Emperor and my Chapter. Fight me, for I will Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds!

 

GW making the same sweeping statement you just made was the most grievous insult we’ve suffered in a decade of insults. That one really shoved a knife in our hearts and twisted...

[Toxichobbit]

Disclaimer: I'm only talking about 40k model and rules support. Not because I believe that 30k or adding in novels/video games might disprove what I'm saying, but because I just don't keep track of those releases and I don't have the time to index them all and see what percentage of them are Ultramarine specific. I'm also dealing only with facts, not perception, as it's more easily quantifiable. Stuff like Ultramarines are more important in the lore is a matter of opinion, because we're not only dealing with quantity but also quality. The one exception to that is of course Guilliman. There's no arguing that he's a huge deal and he is an Ultramarine, so in terms of 40k Primarch support Ultramarines are up there with Thousand Sons and Deathguard.

 

Context is everything. Ultramarines aren't poorly supported. That wasn't what I was saying in the other topic. They recieve plenty of support through generic Space Marine releases. What they don't recieve, is Ultramarine specific support compared to the other members of the big four (Blood Angels, Space Wolves & Dark Angels). I don't see that as a problem though. I don't think Ultramarines need more support.

 

What bothers me is that the rare time that Ultramarines do get new models or rules, people start going on about Ultramarines getting all the support, "we're sick of Ultramariness" etc. Ultramarines (specifically Ultramarines, not Space Marines in general) get less rules and models than Chaos, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Chaos Daemons, Drukhari, Harlequins, Craftwords, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, T'au, Necrons, Orks, Imperial Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Astra Millitarum and Adeptus Custodes. Even Officio Assassionrum has had twice as many model releases as Ultramarines over the last decade. Space Marines, however, get more models and rules than any of those other factions I just mentioned (with the exception of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels).

 

The issue is, imo, that people are associating Space Marine releases with Ultramarine releases. It's almost the same thing, but not quite. From the perspective of Ultramarines getting support in that they can use generic Space Marine releases, yes, they get lots. There are plenty of Space Marine releases that can be used as Ultramarines, even though they are not Ultramarine releases. From the perspective of Ultramarines getting complained about for too much support because they can use generic Space Marine releases, then no, they don't. Those are NOT Ultramarine releases, they are Space Marine releases.

 

I'm not asking for more support for Ultramarines, or saying that anybody else doesn't deserve to get more models. I'm not even saying that Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels shouldn't get anything new until Ultramarines get more (though I think it'd be nice for all of the big four to be put on hold for an edition or two so Chaos/Xenos/other Chapters in Codex Space Marines get more love). What I'm saying is that I wish that parts of the community would stop blaming Ultramarines for a Space Marine "problem" *. There are not too many Ultramarine releases, there is not too much Ultramarine support. There are too many Space Marine releases and too much Space Marine support.

 

 

You say they dont have a unique unit in the same paragraph that you mention Tyrannic Veteran*   

 

*ok they are now counts as sternguard or tactical marines but once apon a time (4th ed?) they had their own rules

 

Once upon a time Sisters had their own Codex and a lot of new releases, but nobody uses that as a reason that they shouldn't get anymore releases. 4th edition was a decade and a half ago (give or take), and the models for Tyrannic War Veterans are just as old.

 

* I've put "problem" in inverted commas here because whether it's a problem or not is a matter of opinion. Marines do get more support, but they also make GW tons of money with which to support less popular factions. So it's swings and roundabouts.

[Ishagu]

To DuskRaider:

 

You realise that in the lore Guilliman actually designed some vehicles (such as the Sicaran tank) and was able to adapt the best aspects from other forces and tactics he witnessed as well.

 

The Primaris Victrix Guard certainly deserve a model line. The Ultras deserve a character Dreadnought. They have a unique sword style with short gladius and could have specialised assault units.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Are you suggesting the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are more important than the Ultramarines and deserve more model releases?

We're saying that the Ultramarines are the template for all other Space Marine chapters and if you make things available for them then they must be available for everybody; otherwise, they aren't the ultimate Codex chapter after all. It's not about who is "more important". E.G. The Black Legion don't deserve more model releases than the Death Guard, because that wouldn't make any sense.

You're saying that. GW isn't saying that (although they've portrayed them as such in the past) but more importantly the current lore isn't saying that. Guilliman's view is that strict following of the codex and inability to innovate or adapt is a weakness.

 

As of right now in the lore, Guilliman is writing a new codex and war doctrine.

 

 

I'm not the only one, so "we're" is the 1st person plural form of the verb required here.

 

I would also point out also that even in the current lore (e.g. a handful of sources) that you are so fond of quoting - ignoring the innumerable other sources detailing the Codex Astartes and the organisation of the Ultramarines - they don't have any unique units at all other than the Victrix Guard, which I could see being deserving of models, being Guilliman's bodyguards. But they certainly don't need their own codex. You also seem to be completely missing the point re: the fact that they remain the model for all other Chapters. Their immense prominence in all aspects of the lore is its own reward.

 

Look beyond your fan bias on this one. The Ultramarines are fine.

[Ishagu]

As I just pointed out above, you can certainly extrapolate many unique units from the current lore. The Sanguinary Guard are just Honor Guard in truth but were granted unique weapons, rules and models. There is absolutely no reason why Ultras can't have the same equivalent.

 

If you think otherwise then you're the one showing negative bias towards them.

[Toxichobbit]

 

 full codex  .... Salamanders. 

 

 

Be still my beating heart!

[Subtleknife]

Definately think they deserve their own codex.

 

I think GW should either go 2 ways.

1) All marine units get folded into one big book. Each first founding gets a few unique units etc and a unique rule or two.

2) All first foundings get their own codex. Doesnt have to be massive and some unique rules/law.

[DuskRaider]

What bothers me is that the rare time that Ultramarines do get new models or rules, people start going on about Ultramarines getting all the support, "we're sick of Ultramariness" etc. Ultramarines (specifically Ultramarines, not Space Marines in general) get less rules and models than Chaos, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Chaos Daemons, Drukhari, Harlequins, Craftwords, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, T'au, Necrons, Orks, Imperial Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Astra Millitarum and Adeptus Custodes. Even Officio Assassionrum has had twice as many model releases as Ultramarines over the last decade. Space Marines, however, get more models and rules than any of those other factions I just mentioned (with the exception of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels).

 

Well there's part of the problem: of course Ultramarines, a specific Astartes Chapter of 1,000 or so Marines, isn't going to be as varied in rules or models as all encompassing armies like the ones you've listed. Granted, there are some exceptions listed above, but even KSons and Death Guard (and soon World Eaters and Emperor's Children) are divergent enough from the other Legions as to receive their own codices above all others in the Chaos faction. But when listing things like generic Chaos, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Orks, Knights etc. etc. many of those cover an ENTIRE race and, much like Codex: Space Marines, fit very unique cultures in with one another and make it work (most of the time). 

 

@Ishagu: I do think Guilliman's Honor Guard should have their own rules. Why not? I wouldn't tie them specifically to him much like Deathshroud are able to be fielded with other HQs, but yeah... I definitely support that. Seems like you have a chance of one of your characters being hobbled and dumped into a walking coffin too so that's a possibility. 

[Ishagu]

They could have a unique Dreadnought, Honor Guard, Command Vehicle and champion style characters (short sword and shield perhaps?) similar to Lone Wolves without even having to develop anything in the lore.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Well there's part of the problem: of course Ultramarines, a specific Astartes Chapter of 1,000 or so Marines, isn't going to be as varied in rules or models as all encompassing armies like the ones you've listed. Granted, there are some exceptions listed above, but even KSons and Death Guard (and soon World Eaters and Emperor's Children) are divergent enough from the other Legions as to receive their own codices above all others in the Chaos faction. But when listing things like generic Chaos, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Orks, Knights etc. etc. many of those cover an ENTIRE race and, much like Codex: Space Marines, fit very unique cultures in with one another and make it work (most of the time).

 

 

I actually don't see it as a problem that they don't have varied rules or models. I don't think Ultramarines need more support and they definitely don't need more than a main faction. The problem, to me, is that people coften compare Ultramarines to other factions, including main armies, which is why I addressed everything in my post. They aren't a main army, even though they are one of the big four. They're a sub-faction, part of the Space Marine Codex. It's really not fair to compare Ultras to other factions and say they get more support when that support is actually Space Marine stuff. Comparing them to other Chapters within the same Codex though, is a valid point.

 

Edit: removed quote pyramid.

[DuskRaider]

 

I actually don't see it as a problem that they don't have varied rules or models. I don't think Ultramarines need more support and they definitely don't need more than a main faction. The problem, to me, is that people coften compare Ultramarines to other factions, including main armies, which is why I addressed everything in my post. They aren't a main army, even though they are one of the big four. They're a sub-faction, part of the Space Marine Codex. It's really not fair to compare Ultras to other factions and say they get more support when that support is actually Space Marine stuff. Comparing them to other Chapters within the same Codex though, is a valid point.

 

Edit: removed quote pyramid.

 

 

I don't think they really get more support but they're definitely not under supported.