Ultramarines Support (Or Lack Thereof) from GW

[Halandaar]

I don't have an issue with Ultras having their own unique stuff, but I do have an issue with them getting more unique stuff when they already have more than every other Chapter in the Codex combined.

 

I would much rather see unique units for the Salamanders or Imperial Fists, or at least a named character for the Iron Hands.

[Blindhamster]

if ultramarines got new unique units... my question is this:

Which Codex Space marine units would they give up?

 

The thing some people seem to overlook is that the ones that did get their own unique units always lose some things in the process. So what would they lose access to?

 

p.s. this question could be extended to any other army in the codex.

[StraightSilver]

if ultramarines got new unique units... my question is this:

 

Which Codex Space marine units would they give up?

 

The thing some people seem to overlook is that the ones that did get their own unique units always lose some things in the process. So what would they lose access to?

 

p.s. this question could be extended to any other army in the codex.

As an Ultras player I would be happy to lose Vanguard/Sternguard Vets and have them replaced with a unique Ultramarines variant.

 

I'd also be happy to swap Assault Marines to a specific unit that more reflects the Ultramarines CC style - the axe is actually the Ultramarines preferred CC weapon but they also favour Gladius style short swords so some combo with shields would be nice (effectively Suzerain).

 

I don't think Ultras could lose tactical marines, Devastator marines or Scouts.

[Schlitzaf]

Neither of those units are in the codex. As for unique Landraider, other forces have them too lol

I mean they are in the index and such legal. So to say Ultramarines don’t have a set of unique units is wrong. The Tyrannic War with either Hellfire or swapping anti-Nid for a generic anti-monster trait would be a fairly acceptable unit tbh.

[Blindhamster]

 

if ultramarines got new unique units... my question is this:

 

Which Codex Space marine units would they give up?

 

The thing some people seem to overlook is that the ones that did get their own unique units always lose some things in the process. So what would they lose access to?

 

p.s. this question could be extended to any other army in the codex.

As an Ultras player I would be happy to lose Vanguard/Sternguard Vets and have them replaced with a unique Ultramarines variant.

 

I'd also be happy to swap Assault Marines to a specific unit that more reflects the Ultramarines CC style - the axe is actually the Ultramarines preferred CC weapon but they also favour Gladius style short swords so some combo with shields would be nice (effectively Suzerain).

 

I don't think Ultras could lose tactical marines, Devastator marines or Scouts.

 

 

they wont lose assault marines honestly. but replacing vanguard and sternguard with something more like tyranic war veterans + some more CC options would seem like a good solution.

[Dizzyeye01]

Thing to remember is that yes, if you look at each chapter then they do indeed look different compared to the Codec but that's not what the gameplay is about. To play normal Space Marines you don't have to have the usual six tactical squads to play them. Break down each unit to have a equivalent and let's see what we have.

 

The IH, Salamanders etc tactical squad is the same as the vanilla squad along with the Devastator Assault and so forth. The Space Wolves on the other hand are different though as their version of Scouts (Blood Claws) are not sneaky units made for infiltrating positions in advance and so on.

 

Yes in the HH each legion had it's own unique units but remember the game system is quite different in that instead of going up against xenos amongst other threats, most of the time you would go up against power armour does like yourself so they had to bring in something to spice things up. That doesn't mean it should be brought to 8th.

 

As people said, yes Ultramarines do have the Tyrannid Was Veterans formed but in essence you could fit them in as Sternguard or unit a Deathwatch killteam in the auxiliary detachment. There are ways to show these units they just don't need big special rules.

 

The big question go ask is, what would you give x unit that y unit doesn't already have?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I wouldn't mind if Ultramarines had their own book, they are a frustrating chapter to tell how popular they are but RG has became a focal point and has a lot of fans. That and the biggest disadvantage that vanilla marines have is that each chapter only has one stratagem/warlord trait/relic giving each first founding more options either through new codex or a supplement would do wonders. The fact that Iron hands have been mentioned and imperial firsts have a box set on the way makes me think another Angels of Death is on the way.

[Blindhamster]

I wouldn't mind if Ultramarines had their own book, they are a frustrating chapter to tell how popular they are but RG has became a focal point and has a lot of fans. That and the biggest disadvantage that vanilla marines have is that each chapter only has one stratagem/warlord trait/relic giving each first founding more options either through new codex or a supplement would do wonders. The fact that Iron hands have been mentioned and imperial firsts have a box set on the way makes me think another Angels of Death is on the way.

 

they have a unique one and then the rest of the "standard" ones.

[StraightSilver]

Thing to remember is that yes, if you look at each chapter then they do indeed look different compared to the Codec but that's not what the gameplay is about. To play normal Space Marines you don't have to have the usual six tactical squads to play them. Break down each unit to have a equivalent and let's see what we have.

 

The IH, Salamanders etc tactical squad is the same as the vanilla squad along with the Devastator Assault and so forth. The Space Wolves on the other hand are different though as their version of Scouts (Blood Claws) are not sneaky units made for infiltrating positions in advance and so on.

 

Yes in the HH each legion had it's own unique units but remember the game system is quite different in that instead of going up against xenos amongst other threats, most of the time you would go up against power armour does like yourself so they had to bring in something to spice things up. That doesn't mean it should be brought to 8th.

 

As people said, yes Ultramarines do have the Tyrannid Was Veterans formed but in essence you could fit them in as Sternguard or unit a Deathwatch killteam in the auxiliary detachment. There are ways to show these units they just don't need big special rules.

 

The big question go ask is, what would you give x unit that y unit doesn't already have?

 

The thing with Ultramarines is their 2 unique Chapter traits.

 

Getting a command point back on a D6 roll fits their tactical flexibility but this actually got nerfed in the FAQ and a lot of armies share that ability in one form or another - I'm not knocking it, it's just not something that screams "Ultramarines" any more (it did originally but we were the first to get it).

 

The second is the ability to withdraw from close combat and shoot.

 

This is fantastic, very fluffy, but I can't remember the last time in a game it actually really did a huge amount.

 

Thanks to reroll bubbles I have found my Ultras have morphed into a plasma/las cannon gunline army. I'm sure that's just down to the models I have painted and isn't the same for everybody but it seems to be how my army has unintentionally evolved.

 

I cannot remember the last time I took my Assault Marines out for a battle - they just seem massively overpriced and don't really do much. Inceptors also don't seem to fulfil an assault role but rather jump in, shoot and jump out.

 

If Ultramarines had a decent CC unit that could bundle into combat and then break out and shoot their trait would be so much better.

 

Maybe I just need to paint some new units up.   

[Blindhamster]

to be fair... assault marines are a waste of time even for Blood Angels, I doubt space wolves would take them even if they had the option either.

Break out and shoot is good because it means you can be shooty and not have to worry about getting bogged down in a fight. It's not a CC buff as CC units will almost always have pistols - which can shoot whilst remaining in CC.

[StraightSilver]

to be fair... assault marines are a waste of time even for Blood Angels, I doubt space wolves would take them even if they had the option either.

 

Break out and shoot is good because it means you can be shooty and not have to worry about getting bogged down in a fight. It's not a CC buff as CC units will almost always have pistols - which can shoot whilst remaining in CC.

Actually that's a very fair point....

[Sete]

Like an Anon said on reddit:

"Ultramarines would be so much cooler if literally everything wasn't about them."

[Scribe]

As I just pointed out above, you can certainly extrapolate many unique units from the current lore. The Sanguinary Guard are just Honor Guard in truth but were granted unique weapons, rules and models. There is absolutely no reason why Ultras can't have the same equivalent.

 

If you think otherwise then you're the one showing negative bias towards them.

 

"If you disagree you are biased"

 

What an enlightened post from our most clearly biased forum member here.

[Ishagu]

Think of me as a force in the Universe trying to keep things in balance ;-)

[Irbis]

if ultramarines got new unique units... my question is this:

 

Which Codex Space marine units would they give up?

 

The thing some people seem to overlook is that the ones that did get their own unique units always lose some things in the process. So what would they lose access to?

 

p.s. this question could be extended to any other army in the codex.

Ha ha ha. Maybe that was true before, but now, after complains from DA, SW, and BA, GW ruined that by taking what little exclusives vanilla marines had and shoveling 95% of them to the above books, even though these armies in most part didn't even need that, having their own +1 variants of the units they gained for no reason. UM players are fully justified in demanding the same treatment and getting stuff of their own, something playing off the supremely flexible master strategists theme the Codex chapters have to finally make them better at something than special snowflakes. As it is, they are SM -1 compared to pretty much everyone else.

 

Really, I find the UM poster status fables kinda sad because that is pretty much shafted GW chapter, on multiple fronts. Let's see, on model front, DA, BA, SW (and now IF too) not only have their own units leftover bits of which can be used to personalize standard SM units, but they had dozens of boxed bundles with the upgrade sprues thrown in for free. Ultramarines? Their upgrade sprue wasn't in any deal. None. Nada. Zip. If you want to personalize your army, you're the only SM chapter of note that has to pay extra, whee! And on top of that, the UM sprue is very light on stuff that actually fits UM, to boot, being mostly retreads of generic bits. Compare that to four upgrade sprues Dark Angels got, all dripping with unmistakably DA stuff, and tell me with a straight face UM whining is in any way justified.

 

Moving on, boxes. Just look at last year's Holiday bundles of vehicle + troop unit, the only upgrade sprue that wasn't free in one of them was UM one, which was pretty pathetic move from GW. And now, in Primaris box deals, we have now free SW and IF sprues, which UM being once again left behind, the supposed ""UM"" box not only not having their upgrade sprue, but the Lieutenant from it having emblems more fitting Novamarines or Death Guard, even, than UM. Then there is so called actual UM Lt, who is only available in one country, from leeches asking for insane money, and is far less inspired affair than freely available SW, BA and DA ones anyway...

 

Then we have rules, where by far the biggest part of SM chapters (vanilla UM descendants, only 65% of all SM) gets zero rules, characters, or relics of their own (and in fact has to break inane GW rules on painted models to claim even UM chapter trait, at that). In 7th edition, all special snowflakes had access to Ultramarine bonus rerolls plus stuff of their own on top of it, making UM the worst chapter. In 8th, not only is UM chapter trait much worse than similar traits of other armies, it almost never sees play due to MSU proliferation.

 

Really, UM were kept afloat by RG for a bit, but then he was nerfed, and DA and BA got far better characters (just look when you saw RG on serious tourney list last time, as opposed to say 3x BA Captains) sinking the chapter pretty much completely. Yet, the whining continues, because UM dared to get a handful of characters 4 editions ago (written by someone who actually got what 'counts as' means, so you were able to actually take these characters in any other chapter, meaning they weren't even exclusive to UM in one edition they were actually good in, hilariously enough...)

[FlamingDeth]

From the point of view of people (at least I assume there's more than me) who mainline other armies this entire discussion is mind boggling. Space marines in general are one of the, if not THE, least populous military force in the galaxy. Orks are probably the most populous, though tyranids may be giving them a run for their money. Where's my deathskulls model support? The only deathskulls specific model and unit is Grotsnik from, iirc, 2006, and I'm a bout 80% sure that he wasn't specifically deathskulls at the time. Ultramarines alone have seven unique characters and the entire Ork codex has five.

 

Don't take it as a complaint about the ork release as it's not. It's just trying to put some stuff in perspective. I know that given the origins of this forum there's going to be a ton of bias in favor of power armored armies but every space marine army has it good in regards to model support spexifically compared to every xenos army.

[Doghouse]

Ultramarines are the Codex, the whole point of the other chapters getting different stuff is because they are Divergent. It's not rocket science.

[Bryan Blaire]

If I were to determine what “needs to happen” is all of the non-UM Legion gene-line Chapters getting removed from the Codex: Ultramarines, losing some of those basic “all-comers” type units, but replacing them with specifically unique units to their way of warfare (which is different to varying degrees from the 600-650 UM/unknown but Codex adherent Chapters in the galaxy). Then the “all-comers” units that remained in the Ultramarines Codex would represent exactly how the Ultramarines Chapter and their progeny and followers do fight. Maybe there could be a tweak here or there (give them axes and Centurion crests), but ultimately those are their Chapter units represented in the current Codex. Give the Ultramarines awesome characters, that’s great, show that their generalist nature leads some of them back around to the path of the specialist - but don’t have any of their specialists as good as the dedicated characters from the other gene-lines that are “in born” (or whatever) favoring the specific type of warfare from primary indoctrination going forward. Upgrade their stratagems some - again, no specialist stratagem should be better than one from one of the other Codexes. Generalists is how the Ultramarines roll as a Chapter. They aren’t a Legion any more, so straight up Legion ports is probably not the name of the game for them. Give them some combat structures that reward CP, but limit the CP uses to slight modifications of generalist tactics.

 

This would generate a lot of rules needs and gameplay testing though - however, it would leave you the design room to explore the other Chapters better, rather than them being a seeming side note to the UM and progeny Chapters.

 

The more I’ve looked at the Primaris though, the more I wonder “Is that really Guilliman though? The Primaris really feel more Dorn-ish in concept to me, how many heavy fists and bolt weapons can you load up on these guys!? Just how many bolter drills can you really do? Did he forget in his sleep all the tactical flexibilities he learned at the feet of his Red Marked? Maybe they really did mess up when they woke him up and got the wrong consciousness put in him - maybe the all gold armor with a big fist really was a clue on the front of the White Dwarf!”

[Blindhamster]

 

if ultramarines got new unique units... my question is this:

 

Which Codex Space marine units would they give up?

 

The thing some people seem to overlook is that the ones that did get their own unique units always lose some things in the process. So what would they lose access to?

 

p.s. this question could be extended to any other army in the codex.

Ha ha ha. Maybe that was true before, but now, after complains from DA, SW, and BA, GW ruined that by taking what little exclusives vanilla marines had and shoveling 95% of them to the above books, even though these armies in most part didn't even need that, having their own +1 variants of the units they gained for no reason. UM players are fully justified in demanding the same treatment and getting stuff of their own, something playing off the supremely flexible master strategists theme the Codex chapters have to finally make them better at something than special snowflakes. As it is, they are SM -1 compared to pretty much everyone else.

 

Really, I find the UM poster status fables kinda sad because that is pretty much shafted GW chapter, on multiple fronts. Let's see, on model front, DA, BA, SW (and now IF too) not only have their own units leftover bits of which can be used to personalize standard SM units, but they had dozens of boxed bundles with the upgrade sprues thrown in for free. Ultramarines? Their upgrade sprue wasn't in any deal. None. Nada. Zip. If you want to personalize your army, you're the only SM chapter of note that has to pay extra, whee! And on top of that, the UM sprue is very light on stuff that actually fits UM, to boot, being mostly retreads of generic bits. Compare that to four upgrade sprues Dark Angels got, all dripping with unmistakably DA stuff, and tell me with a straight face UM whining is in any way justified.

 

Moving on, boxes. Just look at last year's Holiday bundles of vehicle + troop unit, the only upgrade sprue that wasn't free in one of them was UM one, which was pretty pathetic move from GW. And now, in Primaris box deals, we have now free SW and IF sprues, which UM being once again left behind, the supposed ""UM"" box not only not having their upgrade sprue, but the Lieutenant from it having emblems more fitting Novamarines or Death Guard, even, than UM. Then there is so called actual UM Lt, who is only available in one country, from leeches asking for insane money, and is far less inspired affair than freely available SW, BA and DA ones anyway...

 

Then we have rules, where by far the biggest part of SM chapters (vanilla UM descendants, only 65% of all SM) gets zero rules, characters, or relics of their own (and in fact has to break inane GW rules on painted models to claim even UM chapter trait, at that). In 7th edition, all special snowflakes had access to Ultramarine bonus rerolls plus stuff of their own on top of it, making UM the worst chapter. In 8th, not only is UM chapter trait much worse than similar traits of other armies, it almost never sees play due to MSU proliferation.

 

Really, UM were kept afloat by RG for a bit, but then he was nerfed, and DA and BA got far better characters (just look when you saw RG on serious tourney list last time, as opposed to say 3x BA Captains) sinking the chapter pretty much completely. Yet, the whining continues, because UM dared to get a handful of characters 4 editions ago (written by someone who actually got what 'counts as' means, so you were able to actually take these characters in any other chapter, meaning they weren't even exclusive to UM in one edition they were actually good in, hilariously enough...)

 

 

okay, lets take BA (because they're my army!)

 

We'll exclude special characters from it, including the emperors champion as its basically a nameless special character.

 

BA gain as units:

Death Company

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dread

Baal Predator

Sanguinary Ancient

 

Marines have:

Thunderfire cannon

Centurion Devastator Squad

Centurion Assault Squad

Venerable Dread

Ironclad Dread

Honour Guard

Chapter Champion

Chapter Ancient

 

If Black Templars:

Crusader squads*

 

*but loses librarians for it.

 

sooo yeah, clearly the other chapters have everything the core marine book does +1!!!!

 

What you can actually see is, the blood angels lost the stuff that doesn't really seem to fit their modus operandi (although id say chapter champions would have been fair game tbh), and got stuff that fits instead.

 

This is what I was getting at. But I appreciate the rant.

 

 

 

p.s. to address some of the other stuff

 

• I agree that it sucks that the UM sprue wasn't available in certain sets for a couple quid extra (BA and DA primaris sets are about 2.50 extra, so i concur that UM should have had the same).
• The UM lieutenant is my favourite of them all, his pose is just much nicer, it sucks hes only in a magazine, but i imagine he'll get a release normally eventually, failing that, if you really want him, as a UK friend to order you a copy of the issue and post it?
• The BA primaris sprue is pretty lame with a boring generic chainsword, if it had been fancy BA then fine but it blatantly should have been a generic bit for everyone.
• Dante is the worst of the chapter masters, but a fair margin. He's crazy expensive and gives exactly nothing to the army, and the unit hes meant to be with (sanguinary guard) actually have a totally redundant buff if used with him to boot.
• on the rules front, the UM rule is pretty great for an army that shoots, the recent CA made part of it a little worse, but its still good.
• I wish captain smash would disappear, its a horrible addition to the game and makes me a very sad panda.

[Ishagu]

Ultramarines are the Codex, the whole point of the other chapters getting different stuff is because they are Divergent. It's not rocket science.

I think this is really a shortcoming of past GW design.

In the past units were shared across books, various customisation options were available here and there. Chaos Marines were just like the regular guys but with Spikes.

 

With the Death Guard becoming truly divergent from loyalist Astartes outside of a few legacy units, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect factions and sub factions to be more distinctive in future; this includes the Ultramarines.

 

GW is better and quicker at making kits than they were 5-10 years ago. The lore is no longer holding them back in terms of chapter organisation, strategy, etc in a post gathering storm universe. Let's see some unique Ultramarine kits!

 

I'm not saying they should stop there. Imo every main chapter needs at least one unique unit beyond HQs. Ultras, as one of the big 4 and an original legacy force needs attention ahead of the others.

[Canadian_F_H]

If we are going to beat this dead horse let's try to focus on doing it in creative New ways folks. ;)

 

 

@Irbis. UM are not the only prominent SM chapter of note that has to pay extra to get their bling, and at least their bling is recent and has a Sharper superior design and cast to the now 14ish year old BT upgrade kit.

 

However I will give you the fact that of the big ones, it's terribly odd that their primaris upgrade wasn't boxed with a squad like the DA/BA/SW were... I was looking not long ago and I literally see no reason to buy a box of vanilla intercessors vs the DA/BA intercessors... Even if you don't play those armies. Free bits for the bits box! No brained imo. You or a buddy will make use of then eventually.

 

 

Most of this convo has been about unique units. I don't particularly agree or disagree, I'm definitly a casual observer and my dog is in another fight all together (we don't need another BT ranting about being rolled into the vanilla codex do we? We all largely agree about it, and y'all would be happy to see us leave the codex so we stop griping about it at least, Hahaha)

 

To me I'd like to see more models even if they aren't for a unit with all that different a set of rules

 

Now upgrade sprues are one thing. UM/BA/DA/SW all got a nice spru for regular marines and then recently for primaris.

 

But BA and SW both have their own squad boxes. The BA tactical squad is very unique and extremely awesome. And it's just their tactical squad. Sure they have a couple of unique wargear options, but over all its just a tactical squad with TONS OF BLING. and the space wolves have their many squad boxes that essentially replace tactical marines etc. Tons of SW bling.

 

 

 

So my hope and suggestion would mearly be that UM get a unique tactical squad box like the BA got. The again I don't think we will see another regular marine release ever again...

 

So how about a UM specific primaris intercessor squad box. Loads of UM details, as unique looking as the BA tactical box.

[Lord Marshal]

*Laughs in non-Space Marine*

[Axineton]

But BA and SW both have their own squad boxes. The BA tactical squad is very unique and extremely awesome. And it's just their tactical squad. Sure they have a couple of unique wargear options, but over all its just a tactical squad with TONS OF BLING. and the space wolves have their many squad boxes that essentially replace tactical marines etc. Tons of SW bling.

So my hope and suggestion would mearly be that UM get a unique tactical squad box like the BA got. The again I don't think we will see another regular marine release ever again...

So how about a UM specific primaris intercessor squad box. Loads of UM details, as unique looking as the BA tactical box.

Don’t forget those dark angels with their ravenwing and deathwing. They don’t get off the hook so easily lol!

[Jarl Caldersson]

*Laughs in non-Space Marine*

No the IG complain Cadia gets represented too much and no new Catachan/Elysian/Tallarn/1st Polish Mounted Light Cavalry/etc models.

 

 

@Ishagu please tell me how UM are under represented compared to any of the Codex SM's? If your argument is simply pointing at the big 4 SM chapters than you are simply comparing apples to oranges as they are entire different armies.

[Kinstryfe]

The way I see it, GW has made the Ultras synonymous with the Codex, with other Chapters being relegated to one or two choices extra for flavor. The other big 3 get their own books because they're supposed to be different enough to need it. Ultras are the vanilla ice cream of space marines: they're pretty good, not a lot of people really dislike it, and it may not be your favorite but you won't turn it down with some birthday cake. Think about it like this: compare Codex: SM with the other Marines codexes and you'll see how they're different than other chapters. It's just not their fault (ok in lore it kinda is) how most other chapters use the same basic doctrines as they do.