Ultramarines Support (Or Lack Thereof) from GW

[Deadass]

 

 

Well there's part of the problem: of course Ultramarines, a specific Astartes Chapter of 1,000 or so Marines, isn't going to be as varied in rules or models as all encompassing armies like the ones you've listed. Granted, there are some exceptions listed above, but even KSons and Death Guard (and soon World Eaters and Emperor's Children) are divergent enough from the other Legions as to receive their own codices above all others in the Chaos faction. But when listing things like generic Chaos, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Orks, Knights etc. etc. many of those cover an ENTIRE race and, much like Codex: Space Marines, fit very unique cultures in with one another and make it work (most of the time).

 

 

I actually don't see it as a problem that they don't have varied rules or models. I don't think Ultramarines need more support and they definitely don't need more than a main faction. The problem, to me, is that people coften compare Ultramarines to other factions, including main armies, which is why I addressed everything in my post. They aren't a main army, even though they are one of the big four. They're a sub-faction, part of the Space Marine Codex. It's really not fair to compare Ultras to other factions and say they get more support when that support is actually Space Marine stuff. Comparing them to other Chapters within the same Codex though, is a valid point.

 

Edit: removed quote pyramid.

 

 

That's what I'm thinking. The Ultramarines can't and shouldn't be compared to BAs, DAs or SWs, since they're not an army of their own from a codex standpoint. But even compared to the other chapters in the book, they're pretty well-equipped. The only chapter that comes close to them in unit variety are the Black Templars, and that's only because they had a codex of their own at one point in time. I don't think that there's a need for new Ultramarine-specific stuff for now, I'd much rather see the Salamanders or the White Scars expanded upon, chapters that have never really had their time in the spotlight.

[Sete]

Edit: quote not working for me...

@Ishagu

If ultras deserve a new codex because guilliman is writing a new codex, and they aren't the template anymore then im waiting for a complete release for my BT that lorewise were never bound by codex constrains.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

Well there's part of the problem: of course Ultramarines, a specific Astartes Chapter of 1,000 or so Marines, isn't going to be as varied in rules or models as all encompassing armies like the ones you've listed. Granted, there are some exceptions listed above, but even KSons and Death Guard (and soon World Eaters and Emperor's Children) are divergent enough from the other Legions as to receive their own codices above all others in the Chaos faction. But when listing things like generic Chaos, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Orks, Knights etc. etc. many of those cover an ENTIRE race and, much like Codex: Space Marines, fit very unique cultures in with one another and make it work (most of the time).

 

I actually don't see it as a problem that they don't have varied rules or models. I don't think Ultramarines need more support and they definitely don't need more than a main faction. The problem, to me, is that people coften compare Ultramarines to other factions, including main armies, which is why I addressed everything in my post. They aren't a main army, even though they are one of the big four. They're a sub-faction, part of the Space Marine Codex. It's really not fair to compare Ultras to other factions and say they get more support when that support is actually Space Marine stuff. Comparing them to other Chapters within the same Codex though, is a valid point.

 

Edit: removed quote pyramid.

That's what I'm thinking. The Ultramarines can't and shouldn't be compared to BAs, DAs or SWs, since they're not an army of their own from a codex standpoint. But even compared to the other chapters in the book, they're pretty well-equipped. The only chapter that comes close to them in unit variety are the Black Templars, and that's only because they had a codex of their own at one point in time. I don't think that there's a need for new Ultramarine-specific stuff for now, I'd much rather see the Salamanders or the White Scars expanded upon, chapters that have never really had their time in the spotlight.

Except they used to be, then they decided to flesh out a bunch of other chapters and stuff them into the codex. In the case of BT who I'd argue are more unique than Dark Angels in the lore they got rolled into the codex as well.

Edit: quote not working for me...

@Ishagu

If ultras deserve a new codex because guilliman is writing a new codex, and they aren't the template anymore then im waiting for a complete release for my BT that lorewise were never bound by codex constrains.

Oh no question. Black Templars deserve their own book as well, I'd go do far as giving them access to bigger units, mass teleportation rules, etc

[Sete]

And of you think ultras deserve a codex more than White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders, that also lorewise have their own structure and method of warfare, you my friend, are wrong.

 

Ultras have the spotlight as the vanilla, and with that comes advantages and disadvantages.

You cannot sell the cake and then eat it.

 

If suddenly the IF are the poster boys on all boxes and with JUST imperial fists transfers on them, and are treated the same way as the ultras are now, then ill advocate for a Ultras codex, with the primarch, special unit, and special chars.

 

But Imperial fists would need to have their primarch back, an upgrade sprue, transfers on every box, front page of SM codex, the lions share of content on said codex, and be the poster boys in every publication like for example Conquest magazine.

And paint the damn rhino in front of GW yellow.

 

Its the blessing and the curse of being the vanilla chapter. But at least you have a steady lot of content.

Claiming that Ultras have a lack of it is just hypocritical.

[Slasher956]

They need to go back to the 5 main types of Space chapters......

 

Codex - Ultras, IF, CF  - these are the people who follow the codex to the letter

Minor Divergent - DA BA - these chapters follow the codex with a few minor changes. ie 10 companies mix of unit types in battle companies single scout company etc (fluff wise BA keep the DC hidden and made out that they were fully codex complient to keep under the INQ radar)

Major Divergent - WS, IH, Salies, - the codex is guide lines so have major differences, ie each company is responsible for its own recruits and training OR their own way of warfare but structurally complient .

Crusade - BT - there own structure and methods of warfare

Legion - SWs - ignore RG and kept with how Russ organised them

[Sete]

They should be all in one codex.

Then make Chapter specific minis like death company and raven wing for example.

And a larger variety of Lieutenants minis like with pelts for SW and WS

With Tabards for BT and DA

Vannila for UM and IF

With Bionics for IH

And Reptile stuff for Sallies and one can argue FT (cretacia)

[Ishagu]

Thing is, in the current setting no one follows the Codex to the letter (maybe the Fists still do?). It's now a guideline.

[Sete]

Current state of the setting, is Primaris, which are the vision of the future of Space Marines as envisioned by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, going around with the sword of the Emperor, is now writing a new treaty on warfare that will be followed by every single chapter of the imperium.

Thats quite a bit of spotlight in my opinion. Lets not mention he already defeated 2 Daemon Primarchs aswell.

All this Guilliman talk also robbed me of my lunch (half) hour.

[Toxichobbit]

And of you think ultras deserve a codex more than White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders, that also lorewise have their own structure and method of warfare, you my friend, are wrong.

 

Ultras have the spotlight as the vanilla, and with that unfortunately comes advantages and disadvantages.

You cannot sell the cake and then eat it.

 

If suddenly the IF are the poster boys on all boxes and with JUST imperial fists transfers on them, and are treated the same way as the ultras are now, then ill advocate for a Ultras codex, with the primarch, special unit, and special chars.

 

But Imperial fists would need to have their primarch back, an upgrade sprue, transfers on every box, front page of SM codex, the lions share of content on said codex, and be the poster boys in every publication like for example Conquest magazine.

And paint the damn rhino in front of GW yellow.

 

Don't the transfers have Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels on them too? So you'd just be replacing the Ultramarine ones with Imperial Fist ones.

 

Also, does anyone seriously care about what colour the Marines on boxes are painted? I could understand it in a GW store, where you've got lots of younger players who are easily influenced and just copy GW. But on B&C I'd imagine we have a higher class of hobbyist who are all capable of doing their own thing, regardless of what colour the front of the box is.

 

I do understand blue fatigue, in that all Marine box stuff is painted as Ultramarines. I just don't see how that as a negative or positive thing against the Ultramarines themselves. It's just the way it is for marketing purposes.

 

Honestly, I'd trade the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists places tomorrow, even if it meant the Ultramarines characters were just reduced to Calgar. For me, any "bonuses" that come from being the poster boys aren't worth the trade off of having to constantly deal with memes, negativity or even outright hate every time (hyperbole, but it is a lot) I want to talk hobby with people. Both online and offline. It's not that I'm angry, I'm just tired of it. It gets tedious, like when people always make the same joke or comment to you and think they are being original, but you just want to turn round and tell them you've heard it a thousand times before.

 

Also, if rumours are to be believed there might be an Imperial Fist upgrade sprue soon. Lets hope so.

 

 

And a larger variety of Lieutenants minis like with pelts for SW and WS

With Tabards for BT and DA

Vannila for UM and IF

With Bionics for IH

And Reptile stuff for Sallies and one can argue FT (cretacia)

 

I think we can all agree, that what 40k really needs is MOAR MARINE LIEUTENANTS! ;)

 

Couldn't resist. I do get what you're saying though.

[Guest MistaGav]

The problem I see is if UM have their own codex then all the other chapters will want a codex too and that means more books which spreads the releases further and more stuff to buy and balance. It creates more problems than it solves IMO. But then the problem with having every chapter in one book means it's going to be a bloody big and expensive book. Maybe it should go back to being a softback index type book as I quite liked them.

[Ishagu]

To be fair most other chapters should have their own expansion book or booklet with unique strats, Warlord traits, relics, etc

[Slasher956]

Imperials already have nearly 50% of the codexs out & you are saying lets add a few more....

 

If you are going to do that then lets go back to the old 3rd ed way of 1 codex per faction with all the generic rules and units then the supplements for each subfaction which say what units you cant take, which special ones you can and the same for wargear... ie

 

Codex SM,

          Supplement SW

          Supplement BT

          Supplement DA

etc etc

 

Codex Craftworld

         Supplement Ilyanden

         Supplement Bel-Tan

         Supplement Ulthew

 

Codex Nids

         Supplement Behmoth

         Supplement GSC

[Robbienw]

I'm going to say yes, I do think DA, SW and BA are more deserving of unique models and rules because of their divergent look and origins as different legions, and their importance in the model lines and background, having had their own models and developed fluff since the early 90's.

 

I just cant see any justification for unique ultras units aside from the victrix guard, because the ultras would willingly hand them out to every willing codex (and even non/close to codex) chapter.  I can't imagine close ultra successors, like for example the genesis chapter, not getting the same units.

 

Stuff like honour guard and champions are just Codex Marine stuff with Ultramarine markings on the models.  I'm fine with that, just don't think GW would go for it in a big way.   Your only hope for a unique unit is really the Victrix Guard and, of course, more characters.

[Ishagu]

As a Legion the Ultramarines are just as unique and divergent as any other so the legacy excuse for BA, DA, etc doesn't hold up.

[Deadass]

The Ultramarines seem to have cast off much of it in favor of formations and organisational structures recommended by the codex though, whereas the more divergent chapters have preserved most of their unique units and traits for the last ten millennia. The Tyrannic War veterans are an answer to the heavy casualties the Ultramarines took when they fought Behemoth. The reintroduction of the Fulmentari or the Locutarus squads would come out of nowhere.

[Robbienw]

Well it does, because they come from a different mentality and way of operating, even though they have gone codex to varying degrees.  The ultras do have unique units compared to them, its just they don't have much unique stuff of their own compared to other codex marines, because the vast majority of codex marines are descended from the Ultramarine legion.

[Guest Triszin]

actually, I dont think ultramarines deserve a unique unit. as most chapters are based off of them.

[Doghouse]

Ultramarines do not need a unique codex.

 

The Ultramarines are the poster boys for the codex because they were the first chapter in White Dwarf to be show cased with an army list, this is where the infamous Illiyan Nastase the half Eldar Librarian comes from. After this once the Primarch and Heresy lore had begun to take form with articles such as the history of space marine armour. the Leman Russ model and of course Space Marine we saw the concept of second founding chapters enter with the second edition codex.

 

The Codex is in place for all other chapters to strive for, this is the Ultramarines bible that all other codex compliant chapters look up to and in some cases religiously adhere to. The reason other chapters like Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels is because they are divergent, they shy from the structure in some form or another.

 

The Ultramarines do not need a divergent codex, they have their own codex that everyone in lore terms must abide by. In fact I think suggesting such a thing to a real Ultramarine would be taken as a slight on their honour.

[Schlitzaf]

Not that it matters but ultra’s have two unique units beside characters;

Tyrannic War Veterans

Terminas Ultra

 

The former I think could either get hellfire back or have their ability changed to rerolling wounds or hits against monsters (or something like that). Just so we are clear there.

[Doghouse]

Well you're right they did have them, but I think the veterans got retconned into being just normal veterans. Weren't they dropped after 4th edition?

[Ishagu]

Neither of those units are in the codex. As for unique Landraider, other forces have them too lol

[StraightSilver]

Well you're right they did have them, but I think the veterans got retconned into being just normal veterans. Weren't they dropped after 4th edition?

Yes, Tyrannic War Veterans are now just Sternguard Vets, which tbh doesn't really work and they should be more akin to Deathwatch Vets.

 

And the Terminus Ultra isn't really a fair example of a unique uit.

 

As an Ultramarines fan boi I would love to see unique Ultras units but I can also see why they haven't been done and why others would have issue.

 

But I also get what the Ultramarine players are saying - Ultras should "look" unique, be more Roman-esque and have a similar Tactical Squad box to the Blood Angels tactical Squad box.

 

I don't think they need unique units but a plastic Honour Guard set that allowed you to build Suzerain would be awesome.

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Model releases have nothing to do with the importance of a chapter in universe, and everything to do with aesthetics of the models themselves. The reason there are separate kits and upgrades for the other of the big four and not the Ultramarines is that those chapters have noticeably different aesthetics. HOWEVER, it appears that GW is moving away from full body aesthetic differences, such as Templar tabards, Dark Angel Robes, and Space Wolves runic carved armor, and focusing instead on shoulder pads and ornaments a person can glue onto the mainline Primaris bodies. Ultramarines can participate in that. This is why there are no deathwing Aggressors, death company reivers, or rune priest librarians. They want to Sigmarine-ify the primaris range. It makes sense when you see it from the business perspective.

[Guest]

actually, I dont think ultramarines deserve a unique unit. as most chapters are based off of them.

I'm going to have to disagree, UM do deserve a unique unit. However all chapter deserve a unique unit to make them feel like an actual separate chapter and not UM in different color or less-than-UM. Sallies get their firedrake's, IH get their Gorgons, RG get Shadow Wardens, etc etc. I don't see why a legion would suddenly dropped their primarchs favored units just because of a codex.

 

Edit: I would like to know what the UMs lack that any of the other codex marines are getting. You can't compare UM to SW, DA, BA as they are completely different armies. Comparing them is like comparing CSM and DG/1ksons, or Dark Eldar and Eldar. Yes they are both SM's but far from being the same. So let's compare apples to apples, or Codex Marines to Codex Marines.

[Slasher956]

just to put things into line... on the webstore there are 110 Ultramarine entries... 10 are unique Ultras... however 3 are army boxes, 3 are rules, 4 Black Templar, 6 Legion of the Damned, 2 white scars & 1 Salaimander model.... that means there are 87 model boxes / sets for standard marines & 10 for ultramarines.

 

there are 20 Blood Angles of which over 10 are characters