Deathwatch Chapter Approved 2018

[Qui-Gon]

 

Aux GL drop is nice, but they really need to fix its wording, as right now, 5 man squad can't take it. No drops for auto bolters? Grav gun more expensive than plasma? What? Not that it matters, DW combi-weapons pricing kinda made special weapons obsolete. Stalkers really need to be free, they suck thanks to SIA limits, bolt carbines too TBH. Inferno pistols finally worth noticing, though too short ranged to be taken over plasma still. I am also puzzled why reivers and hellblasters are more expensive than intercessors...

 

 

They did fix it. Check the FAQ.

 

As for why reivers more than intercessors: they have rules and wargear the intercessors don't.

Why hellblasters? *shrug*

[Syward]

The twin las and ML ven dred gets a 25 point reduction (10 for dred, 10 for TL, 5 for ML)

 

I’ve been thinking of taking 3 with a watch Captain with the relic shield for a 5++.

 

I actually think this helps the FC because we get a few more spare points to take them.

 

The gear points drops are pretty good I think. I haven’t done a points comparison on my current list, but I should be able to get a few more boys in.

I missed the drop in ML points. So that gives me 10 more points, so I should actually be able to put in another Primaris Watch Capt with my list. :TU:

[Irbis]

 

As for why reivers more than intercessors: they have rules and wargear the intercessors don't.

 

Ah, yes, the short range grenades that rarely see play and scary masks that while looking good on paper also are rarely useful as they require reivers to actually beat something in combat with their bare hands enough for it to roll badly on morale check. Anyone, raise hands when there was a last time you saw reivers bully anything scarier than grots?

 

Let me also point out vanguard costs all of 3 points over regular vet, despite also having extra rules, and reiver mobility options effectively costing 5 points despite being really inferior to jet pack vanguard get, never mind all of their melee options. Reivers really need free bolt rifles and -1 on their knives right now to not be a subpar choice, IMO

[Lemondish]

Looks like I'll save ~20 points on each dread (Ven w/TLLC & ML) and about 20pts for each of my intercessors & the 9 pts for my Primaris captain so about 69pts saved it seems may be a little shy for another Primaris Captain. I guess it'll depend on how many points I save for my 8 Hellblasters, 4 Inceptors & 8 Aggressors (IF they're actually even reduced, don't have my Codex w/me right now, so I'm not sure) that I take w/my Intercessors.

 

Hellblasters dropped 1 ppm since they no longer require you to pay for the bolt pistol. Not sure if you were using aux grenade launchers, but they're now free. 

 

Inceptors and Aggressors haven't changed, but a Reiver is now only 1 ppm higher than an Intercessor thanks to the corresponding drop to their pistols as well. It's more than covered by the Intercessor point drops, so if you have the room there's very little reason not to include one into your units just to add to the bully potential. 

 

 

 

On the flip side, it's kind of funny how the side effect of this is that our unique weapons, FC and IHB, continue to become poorer and poorer choices, haha.

 

I also had a chuckle at Relic Blade reduction. I like how DW Vanguard/PA captains are in literally the only SM book which can't take them

 

I also wish DW Primaris could take storm shields and more melee weapons, alas, that's not going to change in this century...

 

Aux GL drop is nice, but they really need to fix its wording, as right now, 5 man squad can't take it. No drops for auto bolters? Grav gun more expensive than plasma? What? Not that it matters, DW combi-weapons pricing kinda made special weapons obsolete. Stalkers really need to be free, they suck thanks to SIA limits, bolt carbines too TBH. Inferno pistols finally worth noticing, though too short ranged to be taken over plasma still. I am also puzzled why reivers and hellblasters are more expensive than intercessors...

 

 

They fixed the Aux GL wording in an FAQ/Errata, so no worries there :)

 

Bolt carbines are the same as auto bolt rifles now, so that works out. 

 

Reivers and Hellblasters being more expensive than Intercessors is kind of why I love Primaris, even if it doesn't make sense at first glance. Intercessors were deemed weak, so they could be dropped in points without it affecting anything else in the line. Plus, it's not like the baseline cost of Hellblasters matters when they never come separate from their weapon choices. Same (kind of) with Reivers. 

 

 

As for why reivers more than intercessors: they have rules and wargear the intercessors don't.

 

Ah, yes, the short range grenades that rarely see play and scary masks that while looking good on paper also are rarely useful as they require reivers to actually beat something in combat with their bare hands enough for it to roll badly on morale check. Anyone, raise hands when there was a last time you saw reivers bully anything scarier than grots?

 

Let me also point out vanguard costs all of 3 points over regular vet, despite also having extra rules, and reiver mobility options effectively costing 5 points despite being really inferior to jet pack vanguard get, never mind all of their melee options. Reivers really need free bolt rifles and -1 on their knives right now to not be a subpar choice, IMO

 

 

*Raises hand* Literally every game I've played against horde armies. A 5 man squad of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, and 1 Aggressor is an amazing bully unit (have to take the full 10 man and then combat squad)

 

This is Deathwatch - no unit should ever be considered seriously outside of their mixed kill team builds. It's sub par right from the start (yes, including Vanguard Vets). 

[Cruor Vault]

Edit: Ignore me...  I can't read

[autek mor]

are deathwatch terminators beautiful again?

[Mr4Minutes]

are deathwatch terminators beautiful again?

I don’t run them now, so my opinion may be off but,

 

I think a fist/s bolter in a squad you’re dsing in with the strat may be a good option. I think the special weapons are still too expensive to run tho.

[Irbis]

Another observation - wait, lightning claw didn't change? At all? It's super pointless now, far superior power fist and relic blade costs nearly the same points. Ah well, I suppose you can cut off the blades and pretend it's power fist now *grumbles*
 

Bolt carbines are the same as auto bolt rifles now, so that works out.

 
Eh, I still think both are overpriced. It's basically bolter, it's outclassed by so many things it's not even funny.
 

Reivers and Hellblasters being more expensive than Intercessors is kind of why I love Primaris, even if it doesn't make sense at first glance. Intercessors were deemed weak, so they could be dropped in points without it affecting anything else in the line. Plus, it's not like the baseline cost of Hellblasters matters when they never come separate from their weapon choices. Same (kind of) with Reivers.

 

If Intercessors were deemed weak, despite seeing regular play, then I have no idea what you can say about Reivers who are really bad now. Not only they suck compared to Intercessors, even in optimal conditions (charged first, no overwatch, knives) they have problems killing 4 pts model. Three attacks don't even kill one GEQ on average...
 

*Raises hand* Literally every game I've played against horde armies. A 5 man squad of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, and 1 Aggressor is an amazing bully unit (have to take the full 10 man and then combat squad)

 

That's not Reivers. That's 80% of good Primaris models in squad, 20% bad. Go try the same with Reivers only and tell us how it ended.
 

This is Deathwatch - no unit should ever be considered seriously outside of their mixed kill team builds. It's sub par right from the start (yes, including Vanguard Vets).

 

No. Just no. Like in Imperial soup, DW soup components should all be balanced. Otherwise, it's just tax model bringing special rule and the unit on its own is worthless, with people who like the look being screwed. Hell, fixing it is even in GWs own best interest as every time new player asks about them he/she instantly get 20 responses stating "don't buy them, they are garbage" and the box goes unsold. They have so bad reputation I have seen dozens of posts saying to not buy SM battleforce just because it has 10 Reivers...

[Prot]

Mods let me know if posting the leaks is okay plz <3

 

=][= It's okay to post leaks... leaks/rumours etc. If books are released and it turns out we are showing pages from published material without GW's consent, then at that time they have to come down. =][=

[Prot]

 

*Raises hand* Literally every game I've played against horde armies. A 5 man squad of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, and 1 Aggressor is an amazing bully unit (have to take the full 10 man and then combat squad)

 

That's not Reivers. That's 80% of good Primaris models in squad, 20% bad. Go try the same with Reivers only and tell us how it ended.

 

 

 

 

I play a 5 man Reiver squad quite often... especially when I'm not using the Corvus. It's a fair unit for tying up tanks/deep objectives that you don't want to over commit to and don't want to blow command points on deep striking with. They do work. They fill this role adequately and the special ammo makes them far more attractive to Deathwatch. 

[Lemondish]

Eh, I still think both are overpriced. It's basically bolter, it's outclassed by so many things it's not even funny.

 

It's a 2 shot anti-light infantry SIA firing weapon with a potential 30 inch range on a pretty accurate and reliably resilient body with access to additional mobility for 1 point more than the rapid fire option, which trades those range and mobility components for -1 AP. I think that's a compelling choice. You do not. We can disagree here, it's okay, mate. 

 

 

 

If Intercessors were deemed weak, despite seeing regular play, then I have no idea what you can say about Reivers who are really bad now. Not only they suck compared to Intercessors, even in optimal conditions (charged first, no overwatch, knives) they have problems killing 4 pts model. Three attacks don't even kill one GEQ on average...

 

Reivers are Intercessors +1. They are literally the EXACT same statline plus extra bonuses, so how they suck compared to Intercessors seems odd. In optimal conditions (i.e. as part of an Intercessor Kill Team) they are hands down far superior. 

 

 

 

That's not Reivers. That's 80% of good Primaris models in squad, 20% bad. Go try the same with Reivers only and tell us how it ended.

 

Reivers can be components to Deathwatch Kill Teams and add far more for 1 point more per body than you're giving them credit for. Not sure what else I can tell you there. If 1 point is the make or break here for a unit being 'good' or 'bad'...then I'm not quite sure we can find common ground at all. 

 

I did play them previously as Codex marine units. They did exactly what they were advertised to do - disrupt. They were powerful in some niche situations, which made them fun. They also look great on the table. They aren't the most optimal, but there are other picks that are superior and they don't make a good case for their points costs in a competitive environment. 

 

And if you think 1 ppm more to unlock two limited but powerful bonuses for an entire unit makes them a bad choice, despite holding the exact same stat line as your supposed good choice, I'm not sure you're being intellectually honest in this discussion. 

 

 

 

Just no. Like in Imperial soup, DW soup components should all be balanced. Otherwise, it's just tax model bringing special rule and the unit on its own is worthless, with people who like the look being screwed. Hell, fixing it is even in GWs own best interest as every time new player asks about them he/she instantly get 20 responses stating "don't buy them, they are garbage" and the box goes unsold. They have so bad reputation I have seen dozens of posts saying to not buy SM battleforce just because it has 10 Reivers...

 

Can you try and converse without the hostility? It's pretty grating having to imagine the shrieking voice needed to parse this stuff

 

You say "it's just a tax model bringing special rule and the unit on its own is worthless" - I disagree - it's an upgrade to an existing good model in its place. I would say the unit on its own is situational at worst. This false dichotomy hyperbolic assessment is the only worthless thing here. But this is Deathwatch - you should never take ANY unit on it's own. The problem isn't GWs, it's mindsets like yours that seek to put optimal builds above all else. That's a valid position to hold, but be clear about it. When you say "it's garbage" what you're saying is that it is irredeemable. It is not. There are countless testimonials I can provide you for this unit alone, from me and others in my local gaming club, but you won't believe me because I believe your goal here is to grind an axe. 

 

I think we've said enough about this, though. I think the point drops from CA make Reivers even more of an option in certain Kill Team builds, and your arguments fail to address that main point. Ergo, I think we're done. 

 

Mods let me know if posting the leaks is okay plz <3

 

=][= It's okay to post leaks... leaks/rumours etc. If books are released and it turns out we are showing pages from published material without GW's consent, then at that time they have to come down. =][=

 

 

Thanks for the info, Prot. I'll try and remember to remove them come next weekend. 

[Moostick]

Forgeworld stuff have a lot of reductions as well, so that's a plus. However, looking more closely, this CA was not targeted at DW. It was targeted at SM, and we were tagged as well because we have to be like last time.

 

I wish I had a better understanding of other armies though, outside of just DW, SM and Orks. If every army got similar reductions/buffs, then does that really change anything? 

[Irbis]

It's a 2 shot anti-light infantry SIA firing weapon with a potential 30 inch range on a pretty accurate and reliably resilient body with access to additional mobility for 1 point more than the rapid fire option, which trades those range and mobility components for -1 AP.

 

Compare it to storm bolter or stalker on veterans, or bolt rifle on intercessors. Both are far more dangerous guns and are cheaper.

 

The fact that least dangerous option is the most expensive means they are objectively worse, and you can disagree all you want, but it will have as much weight as that one guy arguing GK are pretty okay army, with zero basis on math or anything.

 

Reivers are Intercessors +1. They are literally the EXACT same statline plus extra bonuses, so how they suck compared to Intercessors seems odd. In optimal conditions (i.e. as part of an Intercessor Kill Team) they are hands down far superior.

 

Wrong. They are Intercessors -1. They are more expensive, their rules almost never come into play, their main hitter has zero access to power weapons, their guns suck. No one fears handful of pistol shots, and their bolter equivalents are literally bottom tier DW weapons, for 40% more.

 

At this point, you're trying to argue old DW terminators were also terminators +1, because they had "special rules" (which sucked) completely ignoring the fact they were more expensive than already bad base version, making them really bad. That's being objectively, not even subjectively wrong.

 

Reivers can be components to Deathwatch Kill Teams and add far more for 1 point more per body than you're giving them credit for. Not sure what else I can tell you there. If 1 point is the make or break here for a unit being 'good' or 'bad'...then I'm not quite sure we can find common ground at all.

 

1 point on top of having worse gear options across the board when they should be cheaper to be in any way balanced.

 

Conscripts went up 1 point. On how many tables you see them now? Nearly zero. I wonder why, if you think it's such meaningless difference?

 

I did play them previously as Codex marine units. They did exactly what they were advertised to do - disrupt. They were powerful in some niche situations, which made them fun. They also look great on the table. They aren't the most optimal, but there are other picks that are superior and they don't make a good case for their points costs in a competitive environment. 

 

And if you think 1 ppm more to unlock two limited but powerful bonuses for an entire unit makes them a bad choice, despite holding the exact same stat line as your supposed good choice, I'm not sure you're being intellectually honest in this discussion.

 

Except they don't disrupt anything. They have problems killing one GEQ model per 22+ point reiver (assuming you invest in mobility to actually get them anywhere before they die). How, pray tell, 4x as expensive model having problems fighting one of the weakest statlines in the game is balanced?

 

They look great, which is why I am upset they are so bad. Maybe try to look at them objectively instead of inventing excuses?

 

As for the last point, just By that standard, you know what is the best way to fix GK or SM? Why, add four battalions of IG to do all the work for them, then pretend that one last SM model in front is "balanced" because the whole soup is now okay army, one bad model nothwistanding. Who is not being honest here, again? Also, nice ad personam you have got here, mate  

 

Can you try and converse without the hostility? It's pretty grating having to imagine the shrieking voice needed to parse this stuff

 

A ) point one hostile thing I said. I am waiting, just please don't invent any more stuff or put strawmans in my mouth, TYVM.

 

B ) the bolded thing is not only way more aggressive than anything I have said, it's one huge, insulting ad personam. If you're going to result to personal attacks instead of arguments, thanks for entirely conceding whatever point you may have had, not that is was based on anything concrete besides anecdotes.

 

Also, you might want to re-read my post. 

[Black Knight]

I am happy that I maybe able to replace a Captain in the mid-ground with a Primaris Captain and not think I am being cheated. If eventually we get the new strategems thanks to an FAQ, back line Intercessor squads with Character sniping rifles may become a thing.

 

I am also going to see if I now want a Redemptor instead of another Venerable with the points we are all saving.

[durdle-durdle]

Yeah it's too bad DW won't get access to the Indomitus Crusade specialist detachment. Looking BUSTED :D

Truuuu

 

I think I’d still rather have sia on intercessors than have stratagems I have to sink command points into though. They look pretty good, but you also have to spend a command point on the detatchment plus a point per intercessors squad you want affected, plus one point each time you want to activate it. It’s too cost-intensive imo.

[Black Knight]

Ven Dread(80) + Missle(20) + Las-Cannon(40) = 140

 

Redemptor(105) + O Cannon(16) + Plasma(31) + Fist(0) + 2xStormbolters(4) = 156

 

Thats really close now.

[Lemondish]

Ven Dread(80) + Missle(20) + Las-Cannon(40) = 140

 

Redemptor(105) + O Cannon(16) + Plasma(31) + Fist(0) + 2xStormbolters(4) = 156

 

Thats really close now.

 

I'm a real fan of the Redemptor now. My next project focus for DW is a triple Repulsor and double Redemptor list that kind of follows the BA list Neon worked out over on his blog. Flood the board with super tough and really difficult target priority choices.

 

Now I'm just trying to decide what to put in those Repulsors... 

[Black Knight]

 

Now I'm just trying to decide what to put in those Repulsors... 

 

 

Urmm lets go via the ABC... Aggressors, Boltstorm, Collateral Damage?

[autek mor]

those forgeworld dreadnought and landraider reductions tho

[Lemondish]

 

 

Now I'm just trying to decide what to put in those Repulsors... 

 

 

Urmm lets go via the ABC... Aggressors, Boltstorm, Collateral Damage?

 

 

Yeah, I'm thinking some Intergressor units with power first sergeants. Also just got my store birthday Primaris cap, so there's more smashing!

[Lemondish]

So now that we've seen the first page of the Indomitus Crusaders detachment, I'm thinking there's less chance now that it will apply to Deathwatch in the future, even if it actually makes a ton of sense for them.

 

The warlord trait is called Grey Shield, and once per game in the movement phase you get to choose another chapter tactic to apply to your Crusaders until the beginning of your next turn. It refers only to the codex chapter tactics by name.

 

While that would be so painfully fluffy for DW too, is it really likely to happen if it requires not only a Deathwatch player to have the DW codex, but the Space Marine Codex on top of this new book as well?

[Black Knight]

It would and now you mention it I do not think they would allow us to do that and have SIA which is our chapter tactic.

[Prot]

Ven Dread(80) + Missle(20) + Las-Cannon(40) = 140

 

Redemptor(105) + O Cannon(16) + Plasma(31) + Fist(0) + 2xStormbolters(4) = 156

 

Thats really close now.

 

 

I felt like the Ven dread slipped under a lot of peoples' radar. I really love the unit with my Deathwatch, BUT to be 100% honest I wanted to see the big improvement come to the Redemptor. I know not everyone shares my love of the look of the Redemptor but I found it to be one of the worst 'dreadnought' choices in the game.

 

I would rather have the Ven dread's superior stats, and lack of sliding scale all while being cheaper, and actually having a powerful weapon loadout. The Ven dread just has more kick, even if it is only 8 wounds it's just as effective from wounds 8-1 remaining.

 

This always bugged me. The Redemptor, moving and shooting, with an overcharged Macro plasma is terrible. And since the Heavy Onslaught is still heavy, I always find opponents just get it down one level on the damage table, and ignore it because it's pretty hard to be effective with.

 

This unit is something I always want in the list, I take it, I suffer from it. lol

 

I'm glad to see it cheaper. I'm just not sure if this is really enough to make me have less of a love/hate relationship with it. All while my Ven Dread reliably pounds away in the background.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With these changes I’m looking forward to working some Reivers into my army now... totally chuffed.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Ven Dread(80) + Missle(20) + Las-Cannon(40) = 140

 

Redemptor(105) + O Cannon(16) + Plasma(31) + Fist(0) + 2xStormbolters(4) = 156

 

Thats really close now.

I felt like the Ven dread slipped under a lot of peoples' radar. I really love the unit with my Deathwatch, BUT to be 100% honest I wanted to see the big improvement come to the Redemptor. I know not everyone shares my love of the look of the Redemptor but I found it to be one of the worst 'dreadnought' choices in the game.

 

I would rather have the Ven dread's superior stats, and lack of sliding scale all while being cheaper, and actually having a powerful weapon loadout. The Ven dread just has more kick, even if it is only 8 wounds it's just as effective from wounds 8-1 remaining.

 

This always bugged me. The Redemptor, moving and shooting, with an overcharged Macro plasma is terrible. And since the Heavy Onslaught is still heavy, I always find opponents just get it down one level on the damage table, and ignore it because it's pretty hard to be effective with.

 

This unit is something I always want in the list, I take it, I suffer from it. lol

 

I'm glad to see it cheaper. I'm just not sure if this is really enough to make me have less of a love/hate relationship with it. All while my Ven Dread reliably pounds away in the background.

I've been following Nemo's Blood Angels blog over on that section of the site and really wanting to put a Deathwatch spin on his Primaris list. What he found was the presence of both Redemptors and Repulsors made things difficult for opponents to tackle. In that army his opponent cannot prioritize the Redemptors. As overcosted as Repulsors are (were), you still can't have them shooting at you full tilt for very long if you hope to survive. That target priority conundrum solves the Redemptor's biggest weakness. In the Alliance GT in Amsterdam, they were his MVPs because they'd spit out dakka, run up the board and punch things, and end up mostly unmolested while doing so. Too many high priority targets after all.

 

And that was before CA dropped a total of 105 points from the three Repulsors, 82 from the Redemptors, 15 from the Intercessors, and 9 from the captain for a total savings of 211 points.

 

You could do the same with Ven Dreads perhaps, but they're actually easier to shut down and prioritize entirely because they're less wounds and extremely dangerous. I'm not going to come down on which unit is better, but ultimately the choice is now more compelling.