Deathwatch Chapter Approved 2018

[BrotherAetherick]

Primaris arn't useless. Just with the storm shield spam and the nature of mix squads there's not a lot that primaris do better for the points (as vets generally come out cheaper) Hellfire with an innate -1 still has its benefits.

[Lemondish]

Wait a minute, just because regular veterans and gear dropped some points all of a sudden Primaris (who also got points dropped) are "useless"?

 

We still have one of the best squads of Primaris with that oh so sweet SIA. I will be fielding both OG marines and Primaris in my army since they cover different things on the battlefield. Dropping a Interaggressor squad with a seasoning of hellblast turn 2 with a Watchmaster and a dreadnought is yummy. I´m really glad the OG dreddies got a points drop, now I can field two without a sweat.

 

I saw the leaked lists and Im disappointed heavy thunder hammers and the Infernus H.bolter didnt get a few points dropped.

CTRL-F useless

 

1 result

 

It's your comment ;)

 

Nobody said useless - that's a bit of a strawman. The gap between the two existed before, only now Vets are cheaper, can be significantly more resilient, and continue to be significantly more powerful with SIA storm bolters. Nobody is saying useless...but definitely not optimal in any way now.

[Azaiel]

 

Wait a minute, just because regular veterans and gear dropped some points all of a sudden Primaris (who also got points dropped) are "useless"?

 

We still have one of the best squads of Primaris with that oh so sweet SIA. I will be fielding both OG marines and Primaris in my army since they cover different things on the battlefield. Dropping a Interaggressor squad with a seasoning of hellblast turn 2 with a Watchmaster and a dreadnought is yummy. I´m really glad the OG dreddies got a points drop, now I can field two without a sweat.

 

I saw the leaked lists and Im disappointed heavy thunder hammers and the Infernus H.bolter didnt get a few points dropped.

CTRL-F useless

 

1 result

 

It's your comment

 

Nobody said useless - that's a bit of a strawman. The gap between the two existed before, only now Vets are cheaper, can be significantly more resilient, and continue to be significantly more powerful with SIA storm bolters. Nobody is saying useless...but definitely not optimal in any way now.

 

I know know..... not useless but you cant deny that there was some doom and gloom on the previous page.

My thoughts on why we got what we got in CA is mainly because DW are Space marines. Everything that the SM codex gets altered points wise usually filters down to the DW Codex aswell. That leads to odd situations as the stormshields, this was very obvious in the 2017 CA. (jump pack librarians for instance). The second thing is the limited Primaris range. As this range expands there will be more options for Cawls boys, it wouldnt suprise me if we get some breacher Primaris in the future and devestators. And I would be suprised if these new Primaris variants, whatever they may be, didnt come out sometime next year.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Wait a minute, just because regular veterans and gear dropped some points all of a sudden Primaris (who also got points dropped) are "useless"?

 

We still have one of the best squads of Primaris with that oh so sweet SIA. I will be fielding both OG marines and Primaris in my army since they cover different things on the battlefield. Dropping a Interaggressor squad with a seasoning of hellblast turn 2 with a Watchmaster and a dreadnought is yummy. I´m really glad the OG dreddies got a points drop, now I can field two without a sweat.

 

I saw the leaked lists and Im disappointed heavy thunder hammers and the Infernus H.bolter didnt get a few points dropped.

CTRL-F useless

 

1 result

 

It's your comment

 

Nobody said useless - that's a bit of a strawman. The gap between the two existed before, only now Vets are cheaper, can be significantly more resilient, and continue to be significantly more powerful with SIA storm bolters. Nobody is saying useless...but definitely not optimal in any way now.

I know know..... not useless but you cant deny that there was some doom and gloom on the previous page.

My thoughts on why we got what we got in CA is mainly because DW are Space marines. Everything that the SM codex gets altered points wise usually filters down to the DW Codex aswell. That leads to odd situations as the stormshields, this was very obvious in the 2017 CA. (jump pack librarians for instance). The second thing is the limited Primaris range. As this range expands there will be more options for Cawls boys, it wouldnt suprise me if we get some breacher Primaris in the future and devestators. And I would be suprised if these new Primaris variants, whatever they may be, didnt come out sometime next year.

Certainly true. The future does hold promise.

 

And I'm probably a little at fault for the doom and gloom. But I contend that Primaris didn't actually need new units to compete point for point with Vets. Vets were already superior in pumping out SIA with superior mobility due to cheaper transports. The points drops alone to the base Intercessor and their support elements would have done enough to bring them in line with Vets. Now that line is further back than preCA where for the same cost as today, Vets can trade a single str 4 AP 0 melee attack for a 3++.

 

Essentially a Vet trades +1 wound and 3 points for twice as much firepower, a 3+ invulnerable save, access to cheaper transports, and can slide in a 2 wounds 2+ save bullet sponge. They're officially better supported, better equipped, and more resilient than Primaris.

 

I think many of us expected the gap between the two to close, not widen, and that's pretty disheartening when the tea leaves implied otherwise. Nobody's fault but my own for committing to a Primaris Deathwatch force when armies like crimson fists or straight up Ultramarines are now a better use of Primaris.

[Dosjetka]

While I agree that DW Primaris aren't the optimal choice any more... does it really matter that much? They're far from being a "bad" choice and if you've invested funds, time, and energy into them why not just continue assembling them, painting them, and fielding them in your games? Just because they're not the "flavour of the month" now, doesn't mean they can't be that in a few months' time. :)

[autek mor]

While I agree that DW Primaris aren't the optimal choice any more... does it really matter that much? They're far from being a "bad" choice and if you've invested funds, time, and energy into them why not just continue assembling them, painting them, and fielding them in your games? Just because they're not the "flavour of the month" now, doesn't mean they can't be that in a few months' time.

 

given the knee jerk nerfings we have seen so far in 8th, this is a very good point. may be some time before we see the best unit combos, i expect experienced players are already hard at work with the point savings.

[Lemondish]

While I agree that DW Primaris aren't the optimal choice any more... does it really matter that much? They're far from being a "bad" choice and if you've invested funds, time, and energy into them why not just continue assembling them, painting them, and fielding them in your games? Just because they're not the "flavour of the month" now, doesn't mean they can't be that in a few months' time. :)

While this sentiment is true, it doesn't put the wind back in the sails. I can get back to the project later, when Veterans likely get the nerf bat and I don't feel like I'm building for a future game state. I would love to continue for the hobby alone, but I'm committed to a few too many events next year that will make that difficult. Will simply accept that I'll need to pretty much pry off these shoulder pads.

 

But until the eventual Veteran balancing, if anybody wants to see what a super lethal, super resilient, obsec troop selection for marines looks like - DW is the gold standard.

[Dosjetka]

Fair enough. I just hope you don't have too many shoulder pads to remove and that you didn't use plastic glue.

[Syward]

 

I think many of us expected the gap between the two to close, not widen, and that's pretty disheartening when the tea leaves implied otherwise. Nobody's fault but my own for committing to a Primaris Deathwatch force when armies like crimson fists or straight up Ultramarines are now a better use of Primaris.

 

How are Crimson Fists and Ultramarines better use of Primaris now? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely not sure. (I've only been playing since May/June of this year and don't have many games under my belt)  I'd think that the unit compositions available to DW Primaris and access to SIA would still make them superior to a standard Codex:SM unit if you are looking to field an all Primaris list (which I am and still intend to do). What am I missing with the CA that made Codex:SM Primaris better?

[BrotherAetherick]

 

How are Crimson Fists and Ultramarines better use of Primaris now? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely not sure. (I've only been playing since May/June of this year and don't have many games under my belt)  I'd think that the unit compositions available to DW Primaris and access to SIA would still make them superior to a standard Codex:SM unit if you are looking to field an all Primaris list (which I am and still intend to do). What am I missing with the CA that made Codex:SM Primaris better?

 

 

The new formations for Vigilus defiance. Only Codex Space marines can use indomitus crusaders, which have a really good relic and some decent stratagems.

Ultramarines + Gman or the primaris calgar can put out a lot of hurt.

 

Then Crimson Fists have their special primaris detachment called liberators or something. It only affects primaris units but they have a 1cp stratagem to shoot with a unit in the end of their opponents shooting phase which was targeted with range weapons.

[Syward]

 

 

How are Crimson Fists and Ultramarines better use of Primaris now? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely not sure. (I've only been playing since May/June of this year and don't have many games under my belt)  I'd think that the unit compositions available to DW Primaris and access to SIA would still make them superior to a standard Codex:SM unit if you are looking to field an all Primaris list (which I am and still intend to do). What am I missing with the CA that made Codex:SM Primaris better?

 

 

The new formations for Vigilus defiance. Only Codex Space marines can use indomitus crusaders, which have a really good relic and some decent stratagems.

Ultramarines + Gman or the primaris calgar can put out a lot of hurt.

 

Then Crimson Fists have their special primaris detachment called liberators or something. It only affects primaris units but they have a 1cp stratagem to shoot with a unit in the end of their opponents shooting phase which was targeted with range weapons.

 

Ah I see, so it's only if we're playing using the new Vigilus Defiance expansion.

 

Question on that, can the formations be used by only one player? Say I don't have the book but my opponent does, can they use the formations in matched play against me or is it dependent on using the Vigilus Defiance missions? Sorry, not sure how these types of expansions actually work and impact the game. Also, do I need to buy the new Vigilus Defiance books to keep up with the core rules or is it entirely optional? 

[BrotherAetherick]

 

Ah I see, so it's only if we're playing using the new Vigilus Defiance expansion.

 

 

Question on that, can the formations be used by only one player? Say I don't have the book but my opponent does, can they use the formations in matched play against me or is it dependent on using the Vigilus Defiance missions? Sorry, not sure how these types of expansions actually work and impact the game. Also, do I need to buy the new Vigilus Defiance books to keep up with the core rules or is it entirely optional? 

 

 

The specialist detachments (basically formations) are available in matched play. Anyone can use them. The book has a lot of narrative stuff related to the campaigns and missions. There are no new "core" rules, just the detachments and datasheets for primaris calgar, etc. Entirely optional, but handy to have if you wanted to use some of the detachments (note, if you're playing deathwatch, it's more than likely you can't use any, not every army gets one).

[durdle-durdle]

I’m not convinced the vigilus detatchment makes primaris better. It affects basically just your intercessors, and you have to pay a point for the detatchment, a point per squad you want to be able to use the stratagems, and a point each time you activate the stratagems. It’s so command point hungry for better bolters. On the other hand, you can choose deathwatch and be able to deepstrike your primaris unit’s (which overcomes their biggest hurdle imo), get better ap on your bolters all the time, and mix units so your hellblasters and aggressors have meat shields.

 

The stratagem for rapid fire 2 bolt rifles gives roughly 6-7 dead meq, while shooting vengeance rounds at rapid fire gives 6ish dead Meq at basically no cost. I may be wrong, since I majored in English, but it seems like a wash in effectiveness, with normal marines paying more command points but getting an extra attack on a shooting unit.

 

The crimson fists seem neat too, but if your opponent knows you have a stratagem that lets you shoot back at the end of the phase, they’re not going to casually split their fire so you can use the stratagem. They’ll focus down units, so at best, you shoot back with a handful of models.

 

They seem good if you already play normal marines and want a side grade, but i’m Convinced they’re not amazing or even great. “Good,” at best imo, as they should be.

[Raven1]

Honestly a comb-plasma/storm shield sounds good on paper with the only problem being the 6" less range. However, well enticing i think a primaris intercessor/hellblaster squad can weather GWs points/rules updating far better than the veteran group.

 

Thats alot of combi plasma too. How would you run the squad. Just x10 combi-plasma/storm shield. I suppose a terminator or vanguard vet wouldnt be a waste just for bonuses.

[BrotherAetherick]

I think if you don't care about transport limitations I would run veteran kill teams with at least two terminators with storm bolter/maul and 1 vanguard with bolt pistol and SS.

 

Fall back and shoot is so important, and 4 wounds of 2+ makes it extremely durable vs ap 0.

 

then your vets can be armed with SS and weapon of your choice.

 

Add bikers if you want a free teleport homer for emergency teleports and you want more wounds for smite.

[Lemondish]

 

 

I think many of us expected the gap between the two to close, not widen, and that's pretty disheartening when the tea leaves implied otherwise. Nobody's fault but my own for committing to a Primaris Deathwatch force when armies like crimson fists or straight up Ultramarines are now a better use of Primaris.

How are Crimson Fists and Ultramarines better use of Primaris now? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely not sure. (I've only been playing since May/June of this year and don't have many games under my belt) I'd think that the unit compositions available to DW Primaris and access to SIA would still make them superior to a standard Codex:SM unit if you are looking to field an all Primaris list (which I am and still intend to do). What am I missing with the CA that made Codex:SM Primaris better?

Access to Vigilus Defiant applies a ton of great bonuses. Ultramarines were a simple example meant to stand in for any codex marine detachment, but Primaris can gain the unique greyshield benefits from a second warlord trait (giving them two chapter tactics for a turn), the banner buff, and the amazing Stratagem support for Veterans. Crimson Fists buffs only apply to Primaris units but gain a powerful series of Stratagems like 6s count as 2 hits, the ability to shoot at the end of your opponent's own shooting phase, and a wonderful extra warlord trait giving a 9" reroll aura for 1s to wound that you can stick on a captain, turning them into a combo babysitter. That's an extra warlord trait that bakes in the mission tactics of DW with a positioning requirement instead of the DW battlefield role limitation. The fact that these are Stratagems means nothing when you'd have such limited options with a Primaris focused force anyway, so it's less important. You actually have something to spend than on aside from the reroll and fight twice options.

 

Those feel much more fun, varied, and effective. YMMV

[Raven1]

The other thought that is rambling through my brain case is to at least try out the specialist detachment is running DW primaris as primaris grayshields.

 

Thanks for the advice on the DW veteran sqauds. My codex is in the mail. Im excited to start them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is no reason you necessarily have to max out each veteran squad. I like to keep the max points no greater than 250 points which is doable and you still have an amazing unit. I do not see the VV as necessary by any means.

[BrotherAetherick]

Yea you can do min squads if you were running razorbacks or trying to fill dual battalion slots for Pure DW, but adding terminators to kill teams you almost get custodian guard levels of durability (2+/3++) with way more firepower (albeit much worse melee). 

 

5 vets with SS/SB, VV with pistol/SS, 2 Termies with SB/PM, 2 bikers is only 231 with CA 2018.

[6262]

As someone who hasn't run the numbers or seen the discussions can you point me to why a power maul is more desired than a power sword?

 

In my childish napkin math they seem to be pretty much the same except against t3/t8 opponents or where an invuln save is in the cards.

 

Is it just that I expect to always be fighting a 3+/4+ save that's throwing the valuation off?

[BrotherAetherick]

It's honestly a preference thing on what you expect to face. I take maces because I face a lot of 1k son DPs and that lets me wound on 4's and not waste AP.

 

Same goes for custodes jetbikes.

 

Plus I like the way they look.

[Raven1]

It's honestly a preference thing on what you expect to face. I take maces because I face a lot of 1k son DPs and that lets me wound on 4's and not waste AP.

 

Same goes for custodes jetbikes.

 

Plus I like the way they look.

Where do you get your mauls?

[Prot]

I’m just going to say for conversation’s sake, my personal opinion is I don’t like the Ultramarines Primaris detachment and I also think the cost of entry combined with ‘veteran’ status just to access 1 cp Strategems is waaay too steep for me.

 

I play Ultra and in most of those cases I’d rather just skip the whole detachment cost and pay 1 cp for Scions of Guilliman

 

I personally still think DW do Primaris better. SIA is tremendous and our Strategems are far superior to Space Marine Strats. When I play Ultra I’m rerolling stuff all the time. When I’m playing DW my CPs are largely causing a lot of extra damage or messing with Xenos strategy. Not to mention we have some great relics. Ultramarines needed that ‘supplement ‘.

 

As a side note we could see something in the not too distant part 2?

[6262]

Thanks. I've been moving over the past few months and only sipping here and there on the theory of the game lately. As it is I've only played a handful of games getting a newbie into the game.

[6262]

With the decrease in points with terminators and cyclone missile launchers is anyone feeling the mostly maligned Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher/Storm Bolter and cheap power weapon of choice?

 

Or do we feel that a marine (vet) with missile launcher is still the preferred use of the points?

 

I'm still considering the siege squad of 4 ML vets and 3 CML termies since it will no longer be 450pts or so but that's just the Iron Warrior in me talking.