Deathwatch Chapter Approved 2018

[autek mor]

 

 

I think many of us expected the gap between the two to close, not widen, and that's pretty disheartening when the tea leaves implied otherwise. Nobody's fault but my own for committing to a Primaris Deathwatch force when armies like crimson fists or straight up Ultramarines are now a better use of Primaris.

How are Crimson Fists and Ultramarines better use of Primaris now? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely not sure. (I've only been playing since May/June of this year and don't have many games under my belt) I'd think that the unit compositions available to DW Primaris and access to SIA would still make them superior to a standard Codex:SM unit if you are looking to field an all Primaris list (which I am and still intend to do). What am I missing with the CA that made Codex:SM Primaris better?

Access to Vigilus Defiant applies a ton of great bonuses. Ultramarines were a simple example meant to stand in for any codex marine detachment, but Primaris can gain the unique greyshield benefits from a second warlord trait (giving them two chapter tactics for a turn), the banner buff, and the amazing Stratagem support for Veterans. Crimson Fists buffs only apply to Primaris units but gain a powerful series of Stratagems like 6s count as 2 hits, the ability to shoot at the end of your opponent's own shooting phase, and a wonderful extra warlord trait giving a 9" reroll aura for 1s to wound that you can stick on a captain, turning them into a combo babysitter. That's an extra warlord trait that bakes in the mission tactics of DW with a positioning requirement instead of the DW battlefield role limitation. The fact that these are Stratagems means nothing when you'd have such limited options with a Primaris focused force anyway, so it's less important. You actually have something to spend than on aside from the reroll and fight twice options.

 

Those feel much more fun, varied, and effective. YMMV

 

 

your reasons are perfectly valid but are you not slightly concerned that nerfs and new releases may change things in a matter of months to the point where the deathwatch primaris alternative may be just as good? we know that GW are not consistent with balance as we have seen with the grey knights but they do have the responsibility of at least keeping power armoured armies to an equal standard in terms of being effective as much as possible if they don't want their players selling their armies off.

[Lemondish]

I’m just going to say for conversation’s sake, my personal opinion is I don’t like the Ultramarines Primaris detachment and I also think the cost of entry combined with ‘veteran’ status just to access 1 cp Strategems is waaay too steep for me.

 

I play Ultra and in most of those cases I’d rather just skip the whole detachment cost and pay 1 cp for Scions of Guilliman

 

I personally still think DW do Primaris better. SIA is tremendous and our Strategems are far superior to Space Marine Strats. When I play Ultra I’m rerolling stuff all the time. When I’m playing DW my CPs are largely causing a lot of extra damage or messing with Xenos strategy. Not to mention we have some great relics. Ultramarines needed that ‘supplement ‘.

 

As a side note we could see something in the not too distant part 2?

Understood on the cost concern, but I don't see it as an issue. I may overvalue having a selection of Stratagems when it seems folks are fine just throwing them into rerolls. I feel as if the points drops on the dangerous mini Marine units means you can fit in a CP battery and finally have something to actually spend them on. That's exciting for me, but DW is entirely left out on the fun.

 

I don't think I've ever used anything in DW except doctrines, and that is so exceptionally boring even if it's powerful. The Xenos strats have ended up being just scary myths that my opponents never allow me to trigger lol

[Lemondish]

your reasons are perfectly valid but are you not slightly concerned that nerfs and new releases may change things in a matter of months to the point where the deathwatch primaris alternative may be just as good? we know that GW are not consistent with balance as we have seen with the grey knights but they do have the responsibility of at least keeping power armoured armies to an equal standard in terms of being effective as much as possible if they don't want their players selling their armies off.

Sure, that could happen - and normally I'd just go along with it. But I'm scheduled for a team tournament and a few other events in the first half of the year that probably could have gone heavy Primaris, but now it makes zero sense to. In my experience, single wound marines are just as tough as 2 wound primaris vs almost all the guns that actually scare marines.

 

Seriously, unless some massive new benefit comes along for Primaris (something like Calgar's half damage buff), they won't be anywhere close to worth putting on the table. The difference was previously in their durability despite that, but now they're neither more durable nor more lethal than their mini Marine counterpart. I predict Primaris sliding back further than they already were - a comfort for those who disliked the feeling of them replacing their current collections

 

Don't get me wrong, Primaris aren't competitive for codex marines, but they aren't as heavily influenced by the storm shield overbuff and also end up having more flavourful fun things to work with. They made out better but are still worse than their small, stubby, brethren.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yea you can do min squads if you were running razorbacks or trying to fill dual battalion slots for Pure DW, but adding terminators to kill teams you almost get custodian guard levels of durability (2+/3++) with way more firepower (albeit much worse melee). 

 

5 vets with SS/SB, VV with pistol/SS, 2 Termies with SB/PM, 2 bikers is only 231 with CA 2018.

 

 

Wow that’s a really awesome build ! Thanks for sharing. I like to take a frag cannon - do you think it’s worth it... I love the overwatch. I do like having a Black Shield for the heroic intervention - it’s great versus horde if you can position them correctly behind another friendly unit.

[Lemondish]

 

Yea you can do min squads if you were running razorbacks or trying to fill dual battalion slots for Pure DW, but adding terminators to kill teams you almost get custodian guard levels of durability (2+/3++) with way more firepower (albeit much worse melee).

 

5 vets with SS/SB, VV with pistol/SS, 2 Termies with SB/PM, 2 bikers is only 231 with CA 2018.

 

 

Wow that’s a really awesome build ! Thanks for sharing. I like to take a frag cannon - do you think it’s worth it... I love the overwatch. I do like having a Black Shield for the heroic intervention - it’s great versus horde if you can position them correctly behind another friendly unit.

Absolutely love the black shield. It's also an extra melee attack, which rocks.

[mjrwaud]

 

 

Yea you can do min squads if you were running razorbacks or trying to fill dual battalion slots for Pure DW, but adding terminators to kill teams you almost get custodian guard levels of durability (2+/3++) with way more firepower (albeit much worse melee).

 

5 vets with SS/SB, VV with pistol/SS, 2 Termies with SB/PM, 2 bikers is only 231 with CA 2018.

 

Wow that’s a really awesome build ! Thanks for sharing. I like to take a frag cannon - do you think it’s worth it... I love the overwatch. I do like having a Black Shield for the heroic intervention - it’s great versus horde if you can position them correctly behind another friendly unit.

Absolutely love the black shield. It's also an extra melee attack, which rocks.

 

 

I know they're very affordable now, but how many storm shields is overkill?

It's a great unit build, but maybe it's worth trading in one of the vets for a blackshield with a chainsword or power weapon instead of the storm shield just in case that extra attack will come in handy, and swapping the vanguard vets stormshield for another pistol (or plasma pistols to give more bite?) seeing as you don't really want him taking any shots. Thoughts?  

[LucidNinja]

The only change I'm thinking of now is a terminator instead of another Chainsword storm bolter guy.

2xstorm shield storm bolter

2x frag cannons

3x storm bolter chainsword

1x van vet with 2 bolt pistols

1x terminator power sword storm bolter

1x sergeant with Storm bolter and power sword.

 

I feel like storm shields are better by the few, the majority of firepower aimed at these squads is low/no ap so 3++ doesn't matter much.

[Prot]

After having some time to mull these point changes over I can see now how the shift will be massive towards Vets, and away from Primaris mostly.

 

BUT I bet dollars to donuts this is something that (if not now) will become very apparent to GW and it won't last long. I am certain that Primaris get something that sells more boxes.

 

That being said now that I've been able to reflect on these changes I do think one of my old 7th ed builds comes back into play which is simply plopping a Termie with Shield/ close combat weapon? (I love the aesthetic of a hammer) to increase the longevity of the unit.

 

I still thing Stormbolters are king overall. (our +1 to wound Strats are fantastically flexible) and a lot of the Shield takers will probably be Vanguard, or normal Bolter vets. - I play against too many strong AP armies it seems to put anything of true value on those Storm Shield models.

 

Icing on the cake would have been a stronger change to the Corvus. Even if the Twin Las is cheaper, I still don't think it's worth it with the penalties to hit I prefer volume fire.

 

One thing I imagine I will use my Primaris for: 4 Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptor, 5 Intercessors. I do like I can still plop them down outside of Auspex Range and get full firing effect.

 

The Primaris unit I am a little bothered by is my Aggressor, Assault Bolter Inceptor + 5 Auto Bolt Rifle squad. This unit was pretty darn good at starting on the board, advancing to objectives and clearing some impressive amounts of chaff off of objectives.  Now it feels like it's too expensive, and the role overlaps too much with cheaper units. That being said at least this unit STARTS on the ground and doesn't need a transport to be fairly effective.

[BrotherAetherick]

 

Wow that’s a really awesome build ! Thanks for sharing. I like to take a frag cannon - do you think it’s worth it... I love the overwatch. I do like having a Black Shield for the heroic intervention - it’s great versus horde if you can position them correctly behind another friendly unit.

 

 

In my honest opinion, no, frag cannons are probably not worth it. Though the autohitting overwatch is nice, it can be played around (charging from deepstrike, moving models outside of frag cannon range but in range of other models, etc). The storm bolter is so points efficient its hard to justify anything else. The opportunity cost of not being able to take an (underpriced) storm shield just adds to the weakness.

 

But that doesn't mean they aren't usable at all, they are still iconic and powerful.

 

As for black shields, they are great. The only weakness I can see is against fast flying melee units (DPs, custodes jetbikes, smash captains) that can position themselves exactly 1.00000000000000001 inches out and you're forced to heroically intervene into combat without being able to at least overwatch.

[Lemondish]

The Primaris unit I am a little bothered by is my Aggressor, Assault Bolter Inceptor + 5 Auto Bolt Rifle squad. This unit was pretty darn good at starting on the board, advancing to objectives and clearing some impressive amounts of chaff off of objectives. Now it feels like it's too expensive, and the role overlaps too much with cheaper units. That being said at least this unit STARTS on the ground and doesn't need a transport to be fairly effective.

That is exactly what I see as well. I thought they had done well with the status quo thinking they'd make Primaris a tad more competitive compared to Veterans. Instead they seemed to widen the gap more in some ways, while to their credit making their heavier supporting elements better. Still doesn't come close to the lethality and durability per point of Veterans.

[Beams]

So, vets are troops, right?

 

And try cost 17 for a stormshield and stormbolter, so your basically making a riot marine. that's 4 Str 4 Ap -2 D1 shots, 4 Str 4 Ap -1 d1, or 4 Str * AP 0 d1 shots?

 

A squad of 5 costs 85 pts, so I'd personally run a lot of them! That's cheap, generates CP, and has tons of firepower and is super resilient in the current meta of high strength medium AP shot weapons.

 

 

Edit: I mean, that's 5 pts cheaper than a grey Knight.

[BrotherAetherick]

That loadout cost 20 points with the CA rules.

 

Still cheaper than GK lol.

[Raven1]

That loadout cost 20 points with the CA rules.

 

Still cheaper than GK lol.

The only problem is getting all those shields.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Be creative. Like use landspeeder doors.

[autek mor]

was about to suggest forgeworld breacher kits until i remembered the shipping price hikes. maybe less of an issue depending where you live?

[Qui-Gon]

Dunno about you folks, but I've around 20 storm shields lying around due to all the Vanguard vet kits that came with DeathMasque. I'm good for mine.

[Dosjetka]

Plenty of GW and 3rd party sources for shields. Have a look around and I'm sure you'll all find something you're happy with. :tu:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve got lots of VV shields too and Breachers work just fine.

[Prot]

I never thought I'd have a use for all of these shields from my various kits:

Now I wish I had more! I'll continue using these though even on Vanguard.

[Raven1]

So i have been trying to write a couple lists. Im mostly getting kind of lost in what i want and not really sure what to take. Given the changes in chapter approved.

 

What do people think of something like

3x 5 vets with ss/storm-bolters + frag cannon in Twin Assault Cannon Razorback?

 

Or do i really need to add like a vanguard vet/terminator. Because i run into the issue of transporting them around.

 

Building a group for killteam was so much easier than this.

[Prot]

I'd recommend you make a list building post to ask for help this specific. I know for new Deathwatch players that building a list can be daunting at first. There's a ton of options, and few pitfalls you can fall in.

 

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with using units that were popular before CA as opposed to Post CA. You are going to find a lot of opinion on what works in certain environments which is just inherent of a codex with so much fine tuning available to its troops. But that's part of the fun. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My advice is dont go overboard. It’s better to have lots of MSU rather than a few uber squads.

[Finkmilkana]

My advice is dont go overboard. It’s better to have lots of MSU rather than a few uber squads.

I half agree. Certainly try to keep them cheap (I mostly just run Storm Bolter + SS and plasma +SS squads nowadays, adding cheap 1-2termies/1 VV to a few that I expect to draw fire/charges). But I wouldn’t run them all as MSU, the DW stratagems to to strong but expensive for that. I generally also avoid ground vehicles, including transports. But that has more to do with style (quickly dropping in special forces) and my general dislike of normal transports in 8th than pure optimization (though an army that has no obvious T7-T8 target to shoot lascannon at also has advantages).

[Lemondish]

My advice is dont go overboard. It’s better to have lots of MSU rather than a few uber squads.

I half agree. I think there's tons of merit in this approach, and you should take it if it speaks to you. But...

 

I think building maximum size units is just a boatload more fun for experimenting and looks super cool on the table.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run soup so I really can’t afford to go hog wild. That said quantity has a quality all its own.