Deathwatch Chapter Approved 2018

[Raven1]

@Prot

 

I would love to see the list or have a battle report.

 

What do people think about the drop pod post CA2018. I like the corvus, but i think its too expensive especially since it lacks PotMS. Drop pods got a nice price drop and you could drop a larger squad with support units (librarian and/or watch captain/master). You can lower your drops and save on precious CP.

[Qui-Gon]

Pods are still :cuss. There's not much room for discussion on that front. Give me Termite Drills.

[Brother Cruoris]

The problem with the pod is that you can't transport mixed squads in it. Only pure foot slogging vets.

I usually like at least a van vet in my squads.

[vigitant]

My advice is dont go overboard. It’s better to have lots of MSU rather than a few uber squads.

I think it's most important to understand the value and advantage of MSU as well as larger squads, and build based on what approach best helps your army.

 

MSU squads ignore morale.  They waste enemy fire, but individually they die quickly.  They increase your number of drops.  they increase the value of free upgrades like sergeants, but make expensive wargear less valuable, as there are less bodies between wargear and incoming fire.  They also net more command points.

 

Larger squads capitalize on strategems, and might be at risk of morale losses.

 

edit:  sorry about the topic necromancy.  didnt look down to realize their was another 2 pages i hadnt kept up with...   >_>

[vigitant]

My biggest takeaway for CA:  Storm Shields.  Storm Shields on every veteran.  Oprah that :cuss.  If you've got a veteran sergeant sitting on a chair, there'd best be a storm shield under said chair.  Storm shields for everyone.  Chainswords are cool, but for 2 points more you can make your opponent hate you and your unborn children(assuming you give them storm shields, which you should).

I havent felt this flabbergasted by GW's gifts to deathwatch since they gave us SIA storm bolters.

Deathwatch has a new sigil, and it's a cheese wheel on a storm shield.

[Prot]

I did cram a report of one of my last games in:

http://prot40k.blog/2018/12/18/a-post-chapter-approved-2-deathwatch-battle-report-vs-tau-2000-pts/

 

 

@Prot

I would love to see the list or have a battle report.

What do people think about the drop pod post CA2018. I like the corvus, but i think its too expensive especially since it lacks PotMS. Drop pods got a nice price drop and you could drop a larger squad with support units (librarian and/or watch captain/master). You can lower your drops and save on precious CP.

 

 

Drop pods are still a no go for me. Especially with our ability to use CP to do it. I am still using the corvus just because it's 'our thing'. But I agree, post CA2, it's still too expensive.

[spacewatch]

My biggest takeaway for CA:  Storm Shields.  Storm Shields on every veteran.

...

Deathwatch has a new sigil, and it's a cheese wheel on a storm shield.

 

I played 1250pts game (surprise attack&siege type of mission, part of larger narrative) against Orcs yesterday. Turn 2 I managed to put plasma team (x4 Plasmagun&SS + x3 SB&SS + 1x FC + x1 Termie SB&PS + VVet pistols) in cover near central objective that Orc's overpowered army was trying to capture. Thanks to Storm shields (and Orc's bad rolling) Orc's had to use 80% of their firepower for three turns to wipe the unit which in turn helped survivability and tasks of my other units in a way that we did not expect (my plasma unit killed too much Orcs in those three turns, haha). In our narrative Orcs should have been able to wipe unit earlier and push rest of the DW from the objective and then take defensive positions. But now in next mission when rest of my 2000pts DW army arrives my Veterans, instead of trying to re-capture the central objective, start helping rather angry brothers from Orc ambush ...and it's going to be brutal from Orcs point of view, haha. Anyway, after just two games it's easy to see how nicely Storm shields boost durability and thus unit efficiency over the course of the game. It's just what we needed IMO.

[Prot]

I've heard others voice negativity over not 'fixing' marines in CA2, but that isn't the tool for it. I too have realized some simply 'dead' units are going to remain that way until a new codex. 

 

The argument is always the same; lots of low level fire still clobbers our overpriced marines. And I'm not going to disagree... it's true. Everyone knows that 'marines' aren't what they used to be.

 

And the re-occuring rebuttal to all of that is we are looking at Codex Storm Shields here. We're attracting more attention to this area of the forum than ever simply because of Storm Shields. People are dropping other marine armies (usually not Xenos... hehe) because some view this as the answer to the survivability.

 

Personally I don't think this is it. This certainly helps, but it's a bandaid that will have to do until a future rules tweak.

 

This might just be me but even as I pull out my Ultramarines once in a while this fix is quite applicable there too. The difference the CA2 forces scout builds, and saves you points for better Vets (of all types, not just Deathwatch types; Vanguard, Sternguard, etc) and promotes more 'elite' forces that access these items.

 

My last games with Deathwatch have felt a lot better. But the same is said of my Codex Astartes stuff too. It's just different.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think that SM could greatly benefit from a complete overhaul for their intrinsic rules.

 

That said if you play soup ( NO IG OR IK FOR ME) there are some really great builds if you love to play soem power armor.

[spacewatch]

...

And the re-occuring rebuttal to all of that is we are looking at Codex Storm Shields here. We're attracting more attention to this area of the forum than ever simply because of Storm Shields. People are dropping other marine armies (usually not Xenos... hehe) because some view this as the answer to the survivability.

 

Personally I don't think this is it. This certainly helps, but it's a bandaid that will have to do until a future rules tweak.

...

 

I agree. All I meant was that thanks to CA we now can afford to buy some extra durability for our Kill-Teams in such a quantities that you can see the difference when playing. This in turn enables exploring new tactics, playstyles and unit builds. Personally I'm thrilled about all this because it makes playing DW so interesting and fun. I'm even planning to try melee oriented Kill-Teams ...wait, did I say melee, umh ...fun of course 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think the developers ever intended for DW to be this good... imo they f’d up

[Mr4Minutes]

I don’t think the developers ever intended for DW to be this good... imo they f’d up

I actually, respectfully, disagree. GW seems to play test a lot these days, and I believe they would have tested these points changes with DW.

 

I think storm shields are/were the easiest way GW could boost marines staying power in 8th without a complete codex rewrite.

 

Now our elite units can endure the fire of a battle cannon or 2 before being completely wiped off the board.

 

Cheap storm shields = better staying power, while staying an elite force = staying with GW concept of the army. My opinion at least.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is the horde edition so I agree only to disagree with you. It’s not like they haven’t slipped up in the past. Pretty much every SM army except GK can spam shields. The cheap shields are great but it’s a lot more than that.

[Brother Cruoris]

This is the horde edition so I agree only to disagree with you. It’s not like they haven’t slipped up in the past. Pretty much every SM army except GK can spam shields. The cheap shields are great but it’s a lot more than that.

I'm not so sure about how the other marines can spam SS. Blood Angels can only take them on terminators, VV and company vets (except some characters). So if you spam SS you wouldn't have much fire power and be very melee oriented.

I think the same goes for the other chapters as well. Maybe SW can spam it a bit more.

[Prot]

Keeping this Deathwatch oriented, I agree with Black Orange, and I've said it too.... DW are definitely up there now for marines. I know marines aren't great, but this change alone makes them a 100% better.

 

When I'm making a list I still can't believe a shield is 2 points.

 

I do think it's a mistake in some way. And I don't buy the 'playtesting' thing... I used to but I see way too many things that slip past these guys still. (IE: they didn't fix the fly abuse for over a year. They've had a few knee jerk reactions to new codexes that seem to indicate otherwise.... to me at least.)

 

But the side effect of shields definitely works for everyone. Just to varying degrees. Unfortunately it's one of the things (not the entire reason) that Primaris were significantly diminished after CA2.

[Lemondish]

This is the horde edition so I agree only to disagree with you. It’s not like they haven’t slipped up in the past. Pretty much every SM army except GK can spam shields. The cheap shields are great but it’s a lot more than that.

I keep hearing that this is the horde edition, but I just don't see it. I see lots of lists with 32 guardsmen (really stretching the term "horde") and usually some Boyz heavy Ork lists, but I'm never really seeing anybody actually build, run, and consistently win with hordes any longer. Cultist spam and the neverending poxwalker blob have been nerfed. Nobody else realistically gains value in massive hordes, either. I think I saw one 200 fire warrior list, but it was a waste.

 

Scratching my head as to how it's a horde edition when the largest competitive meta cornerstones are elite units like Castellans, Smash Captains, Dawneagle bikes, Dark Reapers, etc

[vigitant]

 

This is the horde edition so I agree only to disagree with you. It’s not like they haven’t slipped up in the past. Pretty much every SM army except GK can spam shields. The cheap shields are great but it’s a lot more than that.

I keep hearing that this is the horde edition, but I just don't see it. I see lots of lists with 32 guardsmen (really stretching the term "horde") and usually some Boyz heavy Ork lists, but I'm never really seeing anybody actually build, run, and consistently win with hordes any longer. Cultist spam and the neverending poxwalker blob have been nerfed. Nobody else realistically gains value in massive hordes, either. I think I saw one 200 fire warrior list, but it was a waste.

 

Scratching my head as to how it's a horde edition when the largest competitive meta cornerstones are elite units like Castellans, Smash Captains, Dawneagle bikes, Dark Reapers, etc

 

Dont forget the ever-deadly IG russ spam.  Or DE ravagers, or eldar soup character shenanigans...

 

This is more a mobility edition.  Aside from reapers(which often had shining spears backing them up), all these lists are highly mobile.

[Moostick]

 

I don’t think the developers ever intended for DW to be this good... imo they f’d up

I actually, respectfully, disagree. GW seems to play test a lot these days, and I believe they would have tested these points changes with DW.

 

They definitely did not look at DW. They made the changes to SM and had to change DW along with them as we are directly tied to their costs.

 

None of the DW-specific weapons were touched. FC, IHB, and stalker are debatable on whether they need to change, but there's no doubt about HTH.

[Prot]

 

This is the horde edition so I agree only to disagree with you. It’s not like they haven’t slipped up in the past. Pretty much every SM army except GK can spam shields. The cheap shields are great but it’s a lot more than that.

I keep hearing that this is the horde edition, but I just don't see it. I see lots of lists with 32 guardsmen (really stretching the term "horde") and usually some Boyz heavy Ork lists, but I'm never really seeing anybody actually build, run, and consistently win with hordes any longer. Cultist spam and the neverending poxwalker blob have been nerfed. Nobody else realistically gains value in massive hordes, either. I think I saw one 200 fire warrior list, but it was a waste.

 

Scratching my head as to how it's a horde edition when the largest competitive meta cornerstones are elite units like Castellans, Smash Captains, Dawneagle bikes, Dark Reapers, etc

 

 

8th edition gave us Conscript hordes, Abaddon Cultist swarm, 180+ Ork hordes, Plague Bearer spam, Goat Spam, and Nick Nanivatii played a GW employee (I believe that's the rumour) with Poxwalker spam. I credit (discredit?) him with the sole reason Poxwalkers got nerfed into the ground. 

 

The result of spam edition: Cultist Strat nerfed. Poxwalker size nerfed. Conscript size nerfed. The magic bullets started coming out, including but not limited to: Deathwatch Stormbolters with SIA! 

 

They're still in damage control mode. Knights are their latest attempt and probably moved the needle too much. (Anyone not seeing Castellans at most of the top tables now?)

 

Now Deathwatch have more tools than ever. Shields against those Castellans, SIA Stormbolters against the Hordes.... and 100% honest I've still really enjoyed the Frag Cannon. I just don't need as many now. 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think the developers ever intended for DW to be this good... imo they f’d up

I actually, respectfully, disagree. GW seems to play test a lot these days, and I believe they would have tested these points changes with DW.

 

They definitely did not look at DW. They made the changes to SM and had to change DW along with them as we are directly tied to their costs.

 

None of the DW-specific weapons were touched. FC, IHB, and stalker are debatable on whether they need to change, but there's no doubt about HTH.

 

 

100% agree. They didn't playtest anything for DW (my opinion). They simply ported over changes and they 'suspect' something is wrong with the Corvus but they don't know how to fix it so they threw it an inconsequential discount. Meanwhile we benefit -tremendously- from an 'apply all' mentality on the toys for Astartes treatment.

 

I'm not attempting to be negative, but out of all the armies I've played against and with since CA2, the Deathwatch have taken the greatest leap in effectiveness as a direct result. 

 

In part I'm saying this because I want people to be aware there is a chance... a small chance... GW may come out saying 'oops' on some of this. 

 

If they don't, I would hazard a guess that a Marine Codex is coming first quarter of 2019 that introduces some good mechanics for Tacticals and better swag. (Just guessing of course)

 

I can't tell you guys how difficult it is for me to get my weekly Ultramarines game in now with the way Deathwatch function post CA2 (they're just so much more diverse.. not just competitive but I'm even loving the Termies and bikes for fun games.)

[autek mor]

i suspect playtesting stopped once they went from index to codex. 

[Raven1]

i suspect playtesting stopped once they went from index to codex.

The podcast FTN has a good episode where they interviewed a playtester for CA2018. It was seemingly look at the points, play the game, adjust points then rinse and repeat until finalized. The individual also said that there were changes or in areas lack of changes he did and did not agree with was it was finalized. It was a sort of by committee reasoning and i assume GW had the final word on any changes.

[autek mor]

 

i suspect playtesting stopped once they went from index to codex.

The podcast FTN has a good episode where they interviewed a playtester for CA2018. It was seemingly look at the points, play the game, adjust points then rinse and repeat until finalized. The individual also said that there were changes or in areas lack of changes he did and did not agree with was it was finalized. It was a sort of by committee reasoning and i assume GW had the final word on any changes.

 

 

thanks for the information, i just found it weird for such obvious balance issues to be apparent if they are playtesting on a regular basis. what does FTN stand for? i would like to hear this podcast. sorry to the thread for the temporal diversion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

FTN = Forge the Narrative

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

i suspect playtesting stopped once they went from index to codex.

The podcast FTN has a good episode where they interviewed a playtester for CA2018. It was seemingly look at the points, play the game, adjust points then rinse and repeat until finalized. The individual also said that there were changes or in areas lack of changes he did and did not agree with was it was finalized. It was a sort of by committee reasoning and i assume GW had the final word on any changes.

thanks for the information, i just found it weird for such obvious balance issues to be apparent if they are playtesting on a regular basis. what does FTN stand for? i would like to hear this podcast. sorry to the thread for the temporal diversion.

Forge the Narrative - it's a fun podcast.

 

I'm inclined to believe the explanation that DW were simply the beneficiary of a codex marine focused change that trickled its way down to the kill teams unintentionally.

 

I also believe that was the case with storm bolters - the intent being that Terminators and Terminator characters would use SIA, but it greatly affected the basic Vet unintentionally. Which is why we're now in the storm bolter and storm shield meta.

[Raven1]

Given the interview, i am still inclined to believe that even with a large group there is no way they could go through every thing every weapon every unit entry with an equal consideration. They did skip over some things. For example Orks didnt get looked at and they didnt do adjustments for Knights because the decision was made that strategem adjustments were probably enough.

 

Im just wondering where they thought 2 point stormshields were a good idea. I like them, but i think the pendulum might swing the other on those sooner than later.