Indomitus Crusaders

[Prot]

So just to get this out of the way because I don't want to re-type it all, I've done a review of the Detachment in my blog. It's not great, but it's dealing with the limited info we have at the time I post this.

 

The short version:

 

Indomitus Crusaders is your Primaris Vigilus "Specialist Detachment" for Space Marines.

 

For 1 CP, a lot of your Primaris gain the "Indomitus Crusaders" keywords.

 

You get the Grey Shield ability to use once per game to use another Chapter's trait for one turn. How usable is this?

 

The Relics are somewhat suspect. Does the banner (Standard of Ultima Founding) replace the function of the Emperor Ascendant? If so, it's a no go for me. The Reliquary of Galathamor is anti psyker, and darn good. In a tournament setting this could be quite annoying for heavy psyker armies since a failed test can result in D3 mortal wounds. Not too bad, but it is a relic, and is competing against a few potent relics we find in continual use within our armies.

 

Strategems: By my count there are 5. One of them simply buys you the status, and keyword "Veteran" which unlocks further Strategems. This system kind of bugs me because it's a cost of entry that is just allowing access other Strategems, compounding the cost of 'bonuses' that enhance very mediocre units; units that are largely being touted as 'inferior' due to this December 2018 edition of Chapter Approved which greatly improves the Vanguard Veteran, and the Sternguard Veterans.

 

We have exploding 6's in close combat which isn't great for the units allowed to use this Detachment Special rules. (for some unknown reason Reivers aren't allowed to become Indomitus Crusaders, nor are Aggressors!)

 

Veterans. This is another 'status' Strategem I was talking about. It is used at the start of the game, and appears to give an Intercessor squad 1 extra attack, and 1 extra leadership for the game. We are full of our leadership around here, aren't we?

 

As a Veteran, the unlock is Target Sighted. Although it's 1 CP, we've paid 2 CP to get here already. So if I understand this correctly, in order to use this, we are now at a whopping 3 CP!  Target Sighted takes those +1 attack Intercessors and lets them shoot Stalker Bolters at Characters even if they're not the closest enemy, and on 6+ they cause Mortal Wounds on top of normal damage.

 

Bolt Storm: (Veterans only again) Auto Bolters get Auto Hits at half range.

 

Rapid Fire helps your Veteran Bolt Rifles increase their capability by becoming Rapid Fire 2.

 

 

So will you be using this Specialist Detachment?

[Charlo]

Woah, are all of these only for Ultramarines and not any chapter?

 

If so I hadn't heard that before and it's pretty upsetting...!

 

Otherwise though, I think marines have so few stratagems anyway that you probably have the CP spare for this (especially bringing Guilliman/ Marneus etc for more, and regen with the Relic). Intercessors are even cheaper and useful for Battalions. Veterans gaining +1 attack then using Stalker Bolters is dumb though, however I think the auto hits on the Autorifles is pretty gnarly - especially when you then charge with 3A each! That can mean up to 50 S4 hits in a turn just from one unit of 10. 20 of which automatically hit! Rapid Fire 2 is nice just to bolter the amount of AP-1 shots in a list and make Intercessors even more versatile (the real highlight of the detachment).

 

As for the "using a different chapter tactic", you actually gain a second one it seems - which could be insane. At the drop of a hat this entire detachment could suddenly:

• Ignore Cover
• Re-roll Charges
• Gain -1 to hit at over 12"
• Free Rerolls per unit
• Advance +2" & charge after falling back
• FNP 6+

All of these are pretty great, but if you are fielding a mid-range Intercessor heavy force then one absolutely jumps out at me - White Scars. Combined with the UM tactic you can fall back, shoot at -1 to hit AND then charge in again. RAD, keeps your units working very hard.

 

RG could be solid to nerf a first turn gunline too or IF to ignore cover at a clutch moment with those Bolt Rifles could be deadly.

[Captain Idaho]

Although I'm not using that detachment, looking at it I can see some uses on the principle you're taking a "Marine horde" of Primaris only - 40+ Intercessors plus support.

 

It's a case of Command Points. If you're building up a heavy infantry Primaris force then yes you get more mileage out of the Veteran status. 3 attacks per model makes Reivers obsolete (as if they weren't before!).

 

The Warlord Trait is... okay. Rarely will you want to use Imperial Fists but you never know. Raven Guard for that sweet +1 cover (rumoured?) will have its utility.

 

White Scars is interesting; being able to fall back, shoot with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic then charge with the White Scars Chapter Tactic might just be useful enough to win games. Again the problem comes from who is using it. Imagine a unit with Jump Packs bounding over opponents to shoot and charge again! Not so useful in that capacity with Primaris.

 

Salamanders looks good but your Intercessors are relying on massed fire so the bonus has less impact on weaker weapons.

 

Iron Hands might be alright if you didn't need to use any others, just to try and keep people kicking.

 

Bolt Storm looks good until you consider the weapon Strength and AP as well as delivery system. It's a reasonable tool as and when the opportunity arrives but not something to plan around. How good would this have been if Tactical Marines could have it? Jumping out of a Rhino or Drop Pod with 16 auto hits plus special weapons (combis have Bolters too) would have been reasonable.

 

Target Sighted is reasonable in its usefulness though to not be wasteful in CP for mediocre effect it is imperative to have plenty of other Intercessor squads available to benefit from the Veteran bonuses. Again, nothing world beating but very frustrating to have 10 S4 AP-2 sniper shots culling your support characters. A possible good use against Orks and Blood Angels who have vulnerable yet useful support characters or just very powerful characters hiding away.

 

Lastly, Rapid Fire[/] is great in perfect conditions but again the delivery system leaves much to be desired. 10 Intercessors can get off 40 shots at 15" and you'll enjoy Scions of Guilliman or character support when you get off that many shots. However, it doesn't take a great deal to neuter a T4 3+ save even with 2 wounds apiece.

 

I have no information on the Relics but hurting Psykers on failed tests sounds golden. Especially if you take a Culexus Assassin in the list as well...

 

All in all, I'd say this Detachment is a reasonable upgrade for an all Primaris force but because of the limited offensive and competitive power of such a force, it isn't powerful enough to win tournaments on its own.

 

If you can take an all Primaris force, or at least 40+ Intercessors in a competitive force, you will reap greater rewards.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm definately going to try it. Yeah, the cost of entry is fairly high. But I've found my Ultramarine lists often bring 10-12 CP to any given game (plus however many turns the game lasts). Since our stratagems are so pathetic, I rarely feel strained to use Hellfire Shells and the occasional Wisdom of the Ancients or Scions of Guilliman each turn.

 

So, for me, it's a matter of effectiveness. I'm not sure it's there, but Intercessors really aren't bad and making them better bears some consideration.

[Charlo]

As an aside too, if I had a load of Primaris - I'd love this detachment as BA.

 

The +1 A & Ld and strats all lend to a very aggressive force.

[justicarius6]

As has been suggested I think this is a good plan for an initial Objective holding detachment, with the killy one being the Victrix and the third however you feel. It's a boost for Primaris that already have decent staying power, this boosts their offensiveness to match.

[Prot]

Great responses guys... overall some good thoughts and definitely some interesting angles I had not thought of!

 

Woah, are all of these only for Ultramarines and not any chapter?

 

 

 

 

No sorry. I meant for our overall direction of conversation, but I can see how I wrote that could be misleading; I've corrected it to not lead anyone else astray. :)

 

 

 

 

Otherwise though, I think marines have so few stratagems anyway that you probably have the CP spare for this (especially bringing Guilliman/ Marneus etc for more, and regen with the Relic). Intercessors are even cheaper and useful for Battalions /snip/ however I think the auto hits on the Autorifles is pretty gnarly - especially when you then charge with 3A each! That can mean up to 50 S4 hits in a turn just from one unit of 10.

 

 

In principle I agree... my issue is that we are talking about 2-3 CP to use this one time. Our 'aura' based codex largely has those hitting fairly often. And otherwise a few of these can be directly replaced by Scions of Guilliman for a single CP, and forgoing the Keyword Tax.

 

But I agree the bolster here would be decent. If the weapons were slightly better this could be so much better. Hitting a flyer for example. Or a Daemon (usually High Toughness) with -1 to hit.

 

 

 At the drop of a hat this entire detachment could suddenly:

• Ignore Cover
• Re-roll Charges
• Gain -1 to hit at over 12"
• Free Rerolls per unit
• Advance +2" & charge after falling back
• FNP 6+

All of these are pretty great, but if you are fielding a mid-range Intercessor heavy force then one absolutely jumps out at me - White Scars. Combined with the UM tactic you can fall back, shoot at -1 to hit AND then charge in again. RAD, keeps your units working very hard.

 

RG could be solid to nerf a first turn gunline too or IF to ignore cover at a clutch moment with those Bolt Rifles could be deadly.

 

That's a great assessment. I wasn't entirely aware of the other Chapter Traits. It's only once per game, so it is a very 'Codex' representative ability. I love the idea behind this.

 

 

Although I'm not using that detachment, looking at it I can see some uses on the principle you're taking a "Marine horde" of Primaris only - 40+ Intercessors plus support.

/snip/
All in all, I'd say this Detachment is a reasonable upgrade for an all Primaris force but because of the limited offensive and competitive power of such a force, it isn't powerful enough to win tournaments on its own.

If you can take an all Primaris force, or at least 40+ Intercessors in a competitive force, you will reap greater rewards.

 

I think you're right. This Specialist Detachment is not going to be a barn burner. And I think it's definitely something that benefits from someone willing to take 30-40 Intercessors.

 

I'm willing to give it a try though.

 

 

. Since our stratagems are so pathetic, I rarely feel strained to use Hellfire Shells and the occasional Wisdom of the Ancients or Scions of Guilliman each turn.

So, for me, it's a matter of effectiveness. I'm not sure it's there, but Intercessors really aren't bad and making them better bears some consideration.

 

That's true enough. Lots of CP and not a lot places to use them. I just feel like that's not the best way to sell this detachment. lol

 

 

As has been suggested I think this is a good plan for an initial Objective holding detachment, with the killy one being the Victrix and the third however you feel. It's a boost for Primaris that already have decent staying power, this boosts their offensiveness to match.

 

I agree. Probably not a tournament contender but for fun games I'll give it a shot.

[Brother Captain Ed]

As has been suggested I think this is a good plan for an initial Objective holding detachment, with the killy one being the Victrix and the third however you feel. It's a boost for Primaris that already have decent staying power, this boosts their offensiveness to match.

 

I dunno...I think running two specialist detachments of any type is a tall order. That's a ton of strain on both your CP pool and your points level.

[PeteySödes]

Im actually pretty sad to not have this a SW. I was even contemplating making my primaris force as DA to use Lion and the Wolf etc and even if i did that I still cant use it... 

 

It does look pretty fun and cool. I understand the target sighted one isn't the most competitive but I do like stalker bolters and whether or not you spend the CP I do like implied threats that affect my opponents choices.

[robofish7591]

It is definitely a shame that it is for codex marines only, especially as I painted my primaris up as a dark angels successor.

 

I do think that is gives a primaris army some new options.  Being able to essentially get first rank fire second rank fire on a 30in range weapon with -1ap and veeeery easy access to rerolls is nice.  I feel that Rapid Fire is the best strat out of the three.  Target Sighted could have its uses but is a big investment in command points for a unit that will only rarely get to make use of the buff that it is being given, but it could be useful against armies that rely on buff characters.  Bolt Storm is my least favorite, autoboltrifles just aren't as good as the standard boltrifles and the stratagem really doesn't add much to them.  We have so many different ways of getting rerolls to hit, that autohitting bolters just doesn't do it for me.  If it were rerolls to wound, I think it would be better, or if it had an effect like the old rending rule.

[Prot]

  Bolt Storm is my least favorite, autoboltrifles just aren't as good as the standard boltrifles and the stratagem really doesn't add much to them.  We have so many different ways of getting rerolls to hit, that autohitting bolters just doesn't do it for me.  If it were rerolls to wound, I think it would be better, or if it had an effect like the old rending rule.

 

So far I'd have to agree. It's my least favourite.

 

For me a much better one with such a high investment would have been a "Veterans of the Long War" equivalent for one phase. First of all it's on Bolt-type weapons (which prevents it from being overpowering) and secondly we are calling these Primaris "veterans" right? So "Veterans of the Indomitus Crusade" for 1 CP should really be +1 to wound rolls.

 

I can live with most of it. Rapid Fire bolt rifles is easily my fave so far.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Is the auto bolters stratagem shooting phase only? Because it could be quite good if it can be used on overwatch.

[PeteySödes]

Is the auto bolters stratagem shooting phase only? Because it could be quite good if it can be used on overwatch.

Yea all the bolter related ones are used and last through the shooting phase

[Tamiel]

Since you can't use the same stratagem twice in the same turn, and since you generally want to burn your CPs early on to get the most out of their use, it seems like you are encouraged to use all three stratagems on turns 1 and 2. If you have three 10man bolt-rifle intercessor veteran squads, only one of them can use the stratagem that you paid for. But if you have one bolt-rifle, one auto-bolter, and one stalker-bolter intercessor veteran squads, then you get to use three stratagems at once.

 

You could just bring one intercessor squad and call it a day (or two for redundancy) but this formation seems to require LOTS of primaris units to get the most juice out of the "gain an additional chapter tactic for a turn" rule. So you probably want three veteran intercessor squads, one of each type of bolt weapon at ten men each. Then make them come out of their repulsors and pop all three of the 1CP stratagems at once (the stalker bolter squad will probably not ride a repulsor and hold ground at a backfield objective instead). On top of those three stratagems, you also pop the warlord trait to get either ignores cover or reroll failed charges, and then you charge in with your bolt rifle and auto bolter guys.

One thing to note is that you can fire 40 bolt-rifle shots from a 10 man squad at 15" now. If there's a leuitenant nearby and you pop the Ultramarines stratagem that lets an intercessor squad gain full rerolls to hits, you could probably clear out a guardsman squad without even having to charge. As for the auto bolters, unless you want to charge with them, you should always be advancing with them when using their stratagem.

 

Ultimately though, this whole formation seems to only be good for clearing out horde armies and not much else. Even then, I'm sure there are plenty of better options elsewhere in other Imperium allies we can bring.

 

EDIT: Looking at the new points in CA, for 520pts you can get 1xBolt-Rifle squad, 1xStalker-Bolter squad, and 1xAuto-Bolter squad, all at 10 men each. With 4CP, you can make them all veterans. Then, on turn one, you can spend 3CP to make them all use their respective stratagems while popping off your warlord trait to give an additional chapter tactic. Then charge in.

That's 7CP spent. I'm starting to think it's better to ignore the veteran stratagem unless you absolutely need them based on what your enemy is bringing. So don't upgrade your stalker-bolter guys to veterans unless you see some vital characters being screened by cheap units, ect.

[robofish7591]

Upgrading every squad to veterans is definitely a trap.  I would probably only give one or two squads the vet upgrade.  Put them in a repulsor and make sure that they get into a position where they can use their boltrifle stratagem effectively.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t agree with the philosophy burning all your command points early. Playing very aggressive with Imperial Marines is most often an equation for disaster.

[Tamiel]

I don’t agree with the philosophy burning all your command points early. Playing very aggressive with Imperial Marines is most often an equation for disaster.

Yeah, it's not a hard and fast rule. But since the squads tend to be closest to full size near the beginning of the game, stratagems that affect an entire squad may be more effective in turn 1 or 2 than in later turns.

[Prot]

 

I don’t agree with the philosophy burning all your command points early. Playing very aggressive with Imperial Marines is most often an equation for disaster.

Yeah, it's not a hard and fast rule. But since the squads tend to be closest to full size near the beginning of the game, stratagems that affect an entire squad may be more effective in turn 1 or 2 than in later turns.

 

 

I have one rule: don't blow command points with inefficient strats. :) That's why this detachment is so difficult for me to wrap my head around.

 

Turning Intercessors into expensive scouts for 3 CP ? I DO have access to scouts.

Turning Autobolters (0 AP) into autohitting for 3 CP? Sternguard have access to Stormbolters and... dirt cheap Stormshields. 0 CP

 

I think taking this into account on top of the fact Intercessors / Primaris in general got extremely minor points drops (free pistols!) and I'm just not too sold yet.

 

I don't want to muddy the waters but if I pull back and look big picture with Chapter Approved out and see points drops in Vets.... well I see a greater push for Scouts, and a greater push to skip PA troops to get to PA vets, Vanguard or Sternguard. The options there just got so much cheaper, and tons of flexibility options.... all at a discount. Today's game of high damage, and strong AP, the 2 point Stormshield might be the greatest savior to 8th edition marines we've seen to date.

[Ishagu]

The only detachment I like is the one for the Crimson Fists. Unfortunately I won't be using it as I do run my Astartes as Ultras.

[N1SB]

 

Indomitus Crusaders is your Primaris Vigilus "Specialist Detachment" for Space Marines.

 

For 1 CP, a lot of your Primaris gain the "Indomitus Crusaders" keywords.

 

You get the Grey Shield ability to use once per game to use another Chapter's trait for one turn. How usable is this?

 

 

Yeah, I'm with you, it's 1 Command Point to "unlock" the Indomitus Crusade for the Grey Shield ability, for the whole detachment.  By itself, it's a 1-use-per-battle Stratagem where your Primaris Captains, Lieutenants, Ancients, Intercessors AND Inceptors all gain an ADDITIONAL Chapter Tactic, rules as written.  That in itself is worth it.

 

It's activated at the start of a movement phase, so if I get 1st turn, I'd probably use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic to minimise losses in the 1st turn.  If I don't, I'd probably use it for Salamanders to do as much damage with all my guys early on or save it until in close combat and go White Scars.  In my case, I'll be running Iron Hands instead of Ultramarines, but still.

 

+++

 

Then everything else after that, like having to upgrade Intercessors to Veterans with another Command Point, then those Stratagems only applicable to Veterans, that's much less certain for me.  It might be something I skip altogether and just use the Specialist Detachment just for the Greyshields ability, and treat that like a really fancy Stratagem!

[Captain Idaho]

Ultimately and I mean this with no rancour or ideological bent; Primaris aren't competitive.

 

The individual Strategums are very good for some units but unfortunately not the units in this Detachment.

 

Consider the bonuses for Veteran - Vanguard, Assault Marines and Reivers would prefer it. Even Sternguard and Aggressors would have some mileage.

 

The Rapid Fire Strategum - how good would that be if Devastator or Sternguard got the benefit in a similar manner ? Even Tactical Marines with their Special and heavy weapons get more out of it. I think it might make people faint if Centurions did!

 

I don't think it's a lost cause, rather a case of building a list normally and if you got the units who might benefit from this Detachment then let's go for it.

 

Caveat - if Primaris get a cheaper transport then perhaps this Detachment might find more use. Rapid Fire in particular. Even then it won't be game breaking, just nice.

 

***

 

Can a Captain benefit from the Veterans upgrade? I can't remember? That might be worthwhile for him though paying 2 CPs for the pleasure might be a little steep.

[Joukernaut]

Once they get cheaper transports I can see some use in charging in 10 intercessors with 31 attacks of which 4 are made with a power fist.

If your opponent does not fall back, fall back yourself rapid-fire something to near death and potentially charge back in with white-scar chapter tactics.

Seems like a lot of fun, and with the new missions I can actually see this being useful. This detachment gives a lot of options for our base troops to clear the opponents troops of of objectives. 

The new missions are no longer about alpha striking your opponent as hard as you can, they are about the objectives. You could table your opponent and still loose on objectives.

The new missions seem to favour the army with the best and fastest troop selection. This detachment does something to make our current second best  troop selection better. To me this may make them actually better than scouts in the new missions, provided they get cheaper transports.

[Captain Idaho]

I was considering this. If the state of the game becomes more mission focussed and players take ever more Troops choices to cope with scoring as many points as possible as quickly as possible, this Detachment will find a very solid place.

 

Considering Orks and the mission Narrow the Search - flooding the centre table with 90 Boyz means they're getting those points until you kill them and putting 40 Bolt Rifle shots into them (Scions of Guilliman perhaps too) will go a long way to allowing you to get that objective mid game to score some points as well.

 

Hell that mission likely won't find its way into many tournaments since it's skewed towards hordes but then maybe because it forces those 90 Boyz not to attack but hold an objective and also gun lines to move forward, just maybe it SHOULD be commom place.

 

This gives this Detachment potential.

[Charlo]

Just the sheer weight of -1AP firepower that they can put out might be enough to swing it in some cases for me. Especially when supported with Re-rolls (as you are want to do with marines anyway!)

 

It's a lot of dakka against screens, especially if you invest in the (even cheaper) Repulsor too. While screens aren't a struggle to remove of course, this is another tool in the box. 10 Intercessors could fight through a lot more than what they cost and keep going with massive amounts of S4 hits.

[Prot]

I'm struggling to make a list at all.

 

My Deathwatch are soaring with the new CA changes and I feel like my Ultra's are in a super awkward spot. Trying to make the list with even a mild intention of using this Specialist Detachment is making for some difficult lists that I have a pretty bad feeling about.

 

My understanding is 10 Intercessors with the (now) free Gren. launcher, and powerfist Sarge comes in at 179 points. Forget using 2 to 3 squads like this. It's not going to end well. Most Astra lists I see here will wipe this without much thought. It gets risky going with expensive infantry if you can't properly guard it.

 

So now I'm down to one squad so I have points for some meatier choices.

 

The second squad I'm trying to wedge in is 5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles. While this is an 'okay' decision, I can't get past the fact Sniper rifles went down 2 points and I don't need to blow command points to use them, plus they're considerably cheaper.

 

So it's a really weird spot I'm left in. Pre-CA2 and Pre Vigilus I had no problem using Primaris and making it kind of work (as well as can be expected in this edition). Now that these supplements are out I find the lack of 'help' Primaris got combined with amazing reduction on some old codex favorites makes this Indomitus detachment extremely hard to work with.

 

I guess I have to just throw away the idea of Centurions, Thunderfire cannons, Landraiders etc, and just go with a core of Intercessors and get my butt handed to me and move on. lol