Indomitus Crusaders

[Captain Idaho]

Does the 40 Intercessors Marine horde not appeal to you? Wondering if you can make that work?

[UnkyHamHam]

One thing to note is the AP - 2 that the Stalkers bring over snipers. I do feel like for free it makes them more versatile. But I definitely agree that cheaper scout snipers is probably the better investment for that specific purpose.

 

Neither stalkers or auto BRs seem worth it. They are technically more worth it now, but still have nothing on the versatility of the standard BR and the double firepower of that rapid fire veteran strat.

 

Ive been theorizing a lot on 3x 10 man Squads with fist and AGL in 3 Repulsors. That's a lot of firepower. I think the Intercessor hoard could work.

[Prot]

Well I'm thinking of what I typically face in a game... how am I going to tackle two Riptides and a Stormsurge behind a gunline with a blob of intercessors? Even with the Repulsors (One will disappear a turn).

 

With my Deathwtach... it works. It's silly to say this because I have people bucking Intercessors in the Deathwtatch forum but the truth is I have a modest blob of Intercessors with Poison forcing handfuls of 3+ saves that wound on 2's... that makes a huge difference mixed in with deep striking Hellblaster/Intercessor squads. I can't do any of that here.

__________________________________________

 

On Stalkers: The cost is one thing vs. Scouts but the truth is it's also a CP cost, and Snipers can infiltrate which is fantastic in some scenarios.

 

On Auto Boltrifles: In my Deathwatch they worked in Fortis squads even without AP because: 1- Special Issue Ammo (wound on 2's or add AP). 2- Fortis squads. I often put an Aggressor in the squad allowing the whole squad to advance and shoot normally. This was decent at moving from objective to objective and blowing away screens without range issues. 

_______________________________________________________

 

So my Ultra Intercessors have to be more focused I think. I just think I will struggle against Knights, Astra, even walker heavy Orks.

 

My thinking is the Intercessor and/or troop portion of the list MUST stay under 500 points. I don't know if that's a good number, but I believe I need about 1500 to handle vehicle/monster issues.

 

I have used a Dual Repulsor list a few times... to bad I sold my Ultra repulsors all painted up. For now I will use my Deathwatch Repulsors and see how it works out. :)

 

I still have to find an answer to high end infantry though and still am trying to wedge in a Vanguard unit just because it's so good now... but Termies are better too. I may compliment the 'new' Primaris with Catapharctii Chainfists.

 

Of course this is all a grand excuse to get Primaris Calgar with his Honour Guard into a game!

[Captain Idaho]

The beauty of Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard in combination with the Indomintus Crusaders is those units take the pressure off the poor old Intercessors.

[Guiltysparc]

I've been noodling this dual repulsor list that I think would work well as a Crusade detachment.

 

A UM battalion with a storm of fire captain and lieutenant in the HQ slots.

 

3x intercessors for troops.

2x hellblasters

2x repulsors with HOG and twin lascannon

1x Redemptor with plasma and mini HOG

1x Bolter Inceptors

 

Then, a supreme command detachment of 3 Allarus Sheild Captains with a axes.

 

My thinking is to use the Inceptors to deep strike with the shield captains to help clear the chaff that's blocking the Custodes from going where they want. The rest of the whole UM detachment would forming a fire base early game and then move out to secure objectives mid/late game.

 

Edit: I am also thinking about swapping the Captain and Inceptors for new Marneus and the honor guard.

[Prot]

I should be getting a crack at this tonight. Using a list I made when this formation came out.

[Captain Idaho]

What sort of list you thinking of, Prot?

[Prot]

So I had the game last night.... I wasn't sure what I'd play against. I'll be honest it was my third game this week so I was a bit fried with work and gaming, but I really enjoy playing this opponent and I know he was looking for a game before Christmas.

 

He had Necrons, and right up front I'll say we were both playing 'experimental' lists. No one had cut throat stuff and it looked like a good opportunity to try the Indomitus Crusaders.

 

I'll give you guys the basics of the list and I can't turn this into a full, 'proper' report but I'll try. :)

 

First off I'll say making an Indomitus Crusaders list is hard because you're taking inherently expensive troops, and trying to make them a large enough resource that you can utilize the formation. That kind of goes against the type of list building strategy that has you trying to deal real, significant damage. Not only that but the "primaris troop" is inherently quite flat, and... not dynamic in the least.

 

I had 2 identical Repulsors (my same build as always... dual las and limited toys).

 

Every model was Primaris except Tiggy on foot. He's in every list I make.

Redemptor very vanilla

2 x 9 Intercessors with GL and Fist.

1 x 5 Snipers

Primaris Calgar with 2 Victrix

3 flamer Aggressors

5 Hellblasters

fun characters - banner, Apothecary.

 

This was sitting at 2K and looked quite bizarre. The footprint was large, but really only 2 models were capable of dealing a threat.

 

Necrons: Monolith in reserve to pull in units from the Tomb world. Lots of Immortals, 2 x 5 Destroyers! A Destro Lord with that really annoying relic stick. A Barge Lord with a shooty stick that has sniper rule. 8-10 Lychguard and the transport flyer. Scarabs, and a Cryptek for reanimation.

 

We played a new Maelstrom and man it was fun. The new rule of removing 6 cards allowed us to drop our "house rules" for Maelstrom and it was far more competitive instantly. Good move by GW.

 

We did the mission that has you drawing 4 Objective Cards, and every time you draw one, you take 2 cards instead, and your -opponent- tells you which card you keep, and which you put back in your deck! It was an extremely fun mechanism and really enforced a mobile force.

 

Getting into the game, I stole the initiative. I just could not get first strike. Nor could he. My ability to use the new strats was limited so I saved my Command Points.

 

Turn 2 got a lot more interesting. Obviously he's forcing me to move out of my zone. He's forcing me to keep Strategems that cause me to move out towards his high AP shots. His Necron rule gave him bonus AP so I was terrified of even the most basic troops.

 

I unloaded my Repulsors which are easily the most valuable units I have and everyone gets out of the vehicles. The damage is severe, but it's all troops. I can't quite kill off one of the Destroyer squads which is a crazy issue for me. I have that Redemptor with the HOG running wild. Spraying shots. I keep him in the list for his large base using Wisdom on the Repulsors until Calgar comes out of the vehicle.

 

I really blew command points at the beginning of the game making my 2 Intercessor squads into Vets. So one got Rapid Fire and the next got the Target Sighted.

 

It was really deflating. I had some really respectable volume but the lack of my Lieutenant in range made for a fairly lethargic result considering how many dice I rolled. I think I rolled averages but the -1 AP just basically worked out to not a whole lot. And the reanimation had me remembering I have to overkill these squads. This is something I know better, however I over estimated the damage bonus from these new Strats.

 

Calgar, the Victrix and the Aggresors went into a full squad of Immortals and they needed everything clicking to kill off the squad.

 

The Necron player thought he was screwed. I mean he had too much in reserves in my opinion, and this gave me a focused fire and he kind of .... 'bled' in to play which hurt him.

 

His Monolith was 'okay' which we suspected it would be at best. It soaked up a lot of lascannons and the Hellblasters. Quite honestly without the Repulsors I was in trouble. I had a lot of trouble killing anything.

 

Surprisingly my scouts were unsung heroes taking wounds off of his Warlord on the Command barge and making it easier for me to dual flame him with Aggressors killing him off (with luck).

 

 

By the time the Necrons came in from reserve he had a lot of dead infantry. He comes in hot with his Lychguard.. with Scythes. I'm used to seeing sword and board so this was nice and easier than I'm used to. The Redemptor got Might of Heroes and used Wisdom and ripped 6 Lychguard apart. This was big as it freed my flank and allowed my CC units (Calgar/Aggressors) to proceed forward and push back.

 

The writing was on the wall. He didn't have enough bodies now and he was cagey with his Destroyers and they are always such an immense threat. I had to use all those Intercessor strats to over kill one squad. I lost a Repulsor and had the last one on 5 wounds. The Redemptor was down to 4 wounds so basically I have no heavy hitters in shooting.

 

he's largely ignoring the Intercessors and I think that was a smart move. They really had to absorb a lot of resources, command points to have an effect which I found I was less, and less impressed with as the game went on.

 

So even though I was doing a lot more damage, and only lost a small amount of units (repulsor, Hellblasters, etc) I saw my damage output fall to almost nothing. Meanwhile his base infantry is a giant threat to my massed infantry from all those -AP bonuses on his common guns.

 

I felt it was time to get the assault action going and close it out while I had the advantage:

- Intercessors try to charge a full squad of Tesla dudes, and the -AP was 2 from that range and with the exploding 6's I lost 4 guys in overwatch.... wow.

- Redemptor (heavily damaged) kills the rest of his Immortals in CC (Lieutenant was assisting)

- I rush in my 3 Aggressors. they completely flash, and are all destroyed by Destroyers, and Scarabs and a Cryptek in the returning assault!

- Calgar fails to charge with the Victrix into his Destro Lord.- Big test here: His Destro lord charges in his turn, and goes after Calgar and the Victrix. I fail some saves but his relic stick is 3 Damage flat. (this destroyer lord continues to be a royal pain in the butt.)

 

The way I played it: Calgar minimized the damage from each Damage of 3 to 2 Damage. Multiply this by the 3 hits that got through = 6 Damage. I roll 6 dice to pass these on to the Victrix. but roll snake eyes. I lose the Victrix (they were already wounded) and Calgar loses his first 2 wounds of the game.

 

If it weren't for the Victrix I'd have a nearly dead Calgar however I lost all my forward models so he would have been dead the following turn.... anyway Calgar hits Destro Lord with Dad's boxing gloves. Hits a lot, wounds on 3's.... he saves all but 2 of them on his 4++. I roll D3 Damage causing 2 wounds total! I still hate that the Gauntlets aren't flat Damage 2 even. So really Calgar and his Victrix got tooled by this Destroyer Lord, but we would call the game in this turn as he was just about tabled.

 

So even though I did table him in T4 the army felt very underwhelming. What really worked to my greatest advantage was his experimental list which would see some units in reserve until T3. His Infantry was incredibly potent. My Intercessors were fairly lethargic in damage albeit against a resistant army. Nevertheless I think the damage output vs. the Command Point resource drain is really a bit too resource heavy.

[Panzer]

Kinda sounds like what I was expecting. Too much of an investment for the expected return. Not just CP but also the need to take a big unit to maximize CP efficiency which in return takes away points from other important units. It's 2+X CP just to give a unit 30" AP-1 Stormbolter after all considering how little use they usually get out of +1A and +1LD. Unfortunate.

 

I might try a unit of 10 Stalker eventually if Blood Angels ever get access to it just to have a unit that can pick on targets my other units can't due lack of Sniper rule. However I fear that they might die too soon since I plan to have most of my infantry sitting in Repulsors or be in reserves the first turn. I'd really need to utilise their range and cover.

Anyway that'd be a lot of points to bully some squishy characters like Commissars and psykers. 

[Charlo]

It seems that Necrons are probably one of the "worst" matchups for an Intercessor themed force being so resilient to massed S4 firepower, however it seems that funnily enough the Primaris list works in its resilience more than its killing power.

 

The Veteran upgrade makes them into a basic troop unit with a crazy number of attacks and solid defensive stats. The bolt stratagems are mostly situational and not to be relied upon - but i'm sure there is always a time where double shots/ auto-hits/ sniping will be effective.

 

I think the trick is not to expect much, but make intercessors muscle through things a mixed combat/ shooting approach with buffs sprinkled on. Which they should do if you have bigger threats inbound. Maybe i'm just stating the obvious though!

 

Perhaps this is how marines are meant to be played - in the fluff they're the surgical strike to end a war, small(ish) numbers that enter a warzone and go for the head as they don't have the numbers for protracted combat. In game terms, this means playing to ojectives which I think Primaris are basically made for. They're generalists which in a straight kill-or-be-killed game isn't doing them favours, but in objectives they have the tools for the job.

[Panzer]

I guess that's mostly because when you go for objectives you'll find yourself in melee sooner or later and Marines can get the most out of their points if they can utilize both, their ranged and their melee stats. Also when you're in melee you can't get shot at so you don't have to roll as many saves with as many AP so the Sv3+ can really work there.

ObSec hordes are still a huge problem tho since they make it harder to get into range of the objective by sheer mass of bodies in the first place and once you are there they just have to be 1 model more to negate all the work your Intercessors are doing until you kill them off.

[Captain Idaho]

It's a very comprehensive report back there Prot. Many thanks.

 

I think more testing is needed of course to be conclusive but it seems to be showings what we all think.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“2 x 9 Intercessors with GL and Fist.”

 

Prot how are these guys working out for you ?

 

My thoughts on Cronz is they are basically in the same boat as us. His Will Be Done is just not good enough.

 

Also this is a classic Protrep. Lol love ya bruh !

[Ishagu]

I think the command point drain is too high for the bonuses. Despite it being thematic, it's probably best to maximise on effective units that don't require strats to function.

 

I saw a mention of 40 Intercessors. I feel I'd probably run 3 squads of 5 in a Battalion and no more.

[BrainFireBob]

What about only partway- say a Patrol detachment with 1 squad of Veteran Intercessors, lieutenant or chaplain? 2CP.

[Panzer]

What about only partway- say a Patrol detachment with 1 squad of Veteran Intercessors, lieutenant or chaplain? 2CP.

 

There's no point in just taking a Patrol detachment to save CP. You don't have to upgrade all your Intercessors so you can just take your usual Battalion,  pay 1CP to make it an Indomitus Crusader Detachment and another CP to upgrade only one of your Intercessor units while still ending up with +3CP instead of -2CP as you would with just a Patrol Detachment.

It doesn't change the CP drain at all tho since you still have to pay at least 2CP for a minimal boost (+1A and +1LD on a single Intercessor unit) and only really start benefitting from it if you pour in more CP for the other Stratagems.

[Ishagu]

I will run my Ultras as Crimson Fists in an upcoming game because the Primaris focused detachment they get has some really nice rules and strats.

[Captain Idaho]

That's not very fluffy nor sportsman like?

[Ishagu]

Just testing all the new rules out.

[Captain Idaho]

Okay cool. Just checking hence question mark etc. Just read it back and it isn't clear I wasn't having a go.

 

I mean do it for fun of course and to mix it up. My opinion means nothing to your enjoyment of course.

 

Just don't forget your roots.

[Prot]

Just for clarity I went nuts on both squads of Intercessors and made them both "vets" just to make sure I got to test the new formation Strats. I mean the list is basically geared towards it. There would be no 'flakk missile' or Scout bike bombs in this list. :)

 

I guess there is a halfway zone of not going as full blown into it as I did. And perhaps that would be better?

 

“2 x 9 Intercessors with GL and Fist.”

Prot how are these guys working out for you ?

My thoughts on Cronz is they are basically in the same boat as us. His Will Be Done is just not good enough.

Also this is a classic Protrep. Lol love ya bruh !

 

Cronz are good against marines though. I just really think they are weak to psychics and Mortal wounds which normally I can make a fair amount of but in that game I had no chance of doing so. Their reslience was very prominent in this type of match up..

 

That being said I had a weird bitter-sweet feel about those 9 man Intercessor GL/Fist squads. 

 

On one hand they were a very mediocre threat to anything above an Immortal or Warrior, whereas those units were a much bigger threat to me (-2 to -3 AP hurts).

 

But on the other hand when you have 2 Repulsors and even a Redemptor marching up the field, no one wants to shoot at Bolt Rifle Intercessors. lol

 

The scouts though. I think they're staying in the list for a while.

 

I have another game scheduled tonight. I may take this Ultra list again.... maybe tweak it. I don't know. Even though I had a win it didn't feel like it because my opponent also played a goofy list. :)

[Subtleknife]

Out of interest, if those were just normal strats for intercessors and you didnt need to spend the tax to upgrade the formation and then the squad (but you dont get the extra att etc) would it be worth it? It would seem so to me. Would be interesting if GW is using this as a testbed for potential strats for a new codex (whenever that may be)

[Captain Idaho]

Very possible they are doing such a thing. Or at least in part.

[Prot]

I think this is a test bed for light formations. My concern is if history repeats itself, then we start with very light marine specialists and by the time we get to Xenos they are rock solid.

 

=============================

 

Another game tonight with the same list I posted from the last game. This time I was paired with a very good Ork player but he was playing a Vigilus formation as well and he felt his list was largely a ‘fun’ list as well.

 

We played Maelstrom and I had first turn. I guess I should add some context to the game even though I will keep this short by saying the Ork list was unorthodox. Using the walker formation he had just so much armour I couldn’t compete.

 

In the opening moments I calculated I’d have to take about a third of the board, hug cover, bait with one Intercessor squad (essentially sacrificing them for the sake of the game).

 

I did get first turn and poured my 4 lascannons from one Repulsor into a Flyer and got it down for first strike. The second Repulsor threw all lascannons at the Morkanought. He saved 3 lascannons and on his turn would repair the damage with his formation repair bonus. I could not significantly damage the rest of his walkers as I was too deeply invested in Intercessors. This would set the pace for the game.

 

I got hammered in slow motion. I did everything I could to fight for the points but I knew from T1 that I couldn’t win. The 5+ walkers prevented my movement and my plan to hold a third of the table hinged on the Intercessors holding ground and while they were okay at it, they did next to no damage effectively costing me the game. (I believe I could have won this game if my Intercessors could have interacted or destroyed 1 or 2 walkers but it was a total mssmatch.

 

Some points of interest:

 

- the Redemptor, even in its discounted state, doesn’t really do anything at range. In my opinion it needs a whole sale Codex rewrite. The cheaper dreads will give you more for your money. ( I only say this after about 12 games using it in 2 armies).

 

- Tigurius is still a must to me. He is a total stud... he extends the life of stuff and helped Calgar Prime lay a whooping on a few squads. He feels like 2 Psykers just because he is so reliable.

 

- Repulsors. I love the model. I love the discount. I hate how reliant it is on Aura’s to do much. But it is the only choice for such a Primaris Heavy Force. Repulsors are still expensive enough that they MUST give you an appreciable ROI or leave them at home. I had 2 again and lost one a turn to ‘inferior’ Ork shooting from a Morkanaught firing twice a turn. When you spend that many points on Intercessors and Repulsors, you really are a special kill md of screwed if they are both dead by turn 3.

 

- speaking of firepower... even with out any Lootas, I was shocked to be so significantly outshot by an Ork walker list. The 3 x D3 shots alone are like S8 lascannons and with its combined firepower shooting twice a turn, even hitting 6s with Dakka Dakka was really painful.

 

- I did not want to over commit Calgar Prime, even with his Victrix Guard. Utilizing Might if Heroes, Calgar single handedly wiped a squad of Mega armoured Nobs (don’t see those much any more) with the assistance of a Lieutenant.

 

Calgar would eventually take the last 6 wounds (barely) off of the Morkanaught wit the help of some friends. The Morkanaught would explode, taking 6 wounds off of my Ancient ( killing him), 4 wounds off of Calgar, 2 wounds off the Lieutenant, 2 wounds killing my last Aggressor. He would also kill his own And Psyker, and a remnant squad of boys.

 

- Hellblasters were a rare shining light. They killed the last Ork fighter flyer, but it exploded as well killing 2 of them.

 

- A very important 2 fold strategy was taking place about mid game. I actually held the lead for a short time, and now owned my original third of the table kill8ng Morkanaught, 10 boyz,a truk, Grots, Psyker, Dread, and flyers. Unfortunately it cost me dearly. I could not keep the Repulsors alive, and the explosion hurt. I had lost Aggressors , 3 of 5 Hellblasters, and I am far out of the action.

 

My intent after the Morkanaught close combat was to sweep into other squads but the explosion made that impossible. Calgar is slow and would have to foot slog with his elite escort.

 

This is the moment I referenced. I MUST prevent Orks from multiscoring on two fronts. They have Boyz, Grots, a truk, and Warboss stiing on one objective. I throw my Intercessors with all those fancy strategems at the truk. I can’t crack it. I die in 2 turns to superior numbers. Even my ‘vet’ Status and 4 fist attacks can’t clear enough boys out.

 

The second point had 3 dreads on a point. A similar result. I threw 9 Intercessors I the, to delay for Calgar. Didn’t work, all died with zero effect including 4 Fist attacks. I desperately throw 6 sniper (ObSec) Scouts in next turn, 3 die in overwatch to flamers and the rest in CC.

 

- my last Death gasp.... Calgar is almost there but the game is lost. I have nothing left. I throw my last Hellblasters overcharging at boys, can’t cause enough deaths fir a moral test. Apothecary revives a Victrix Guard I put out in front fir a desperate, last turn charge on the walkers. I fail the charge... needing a 6, getting a 3.

 

- his turn he fires his shock attack gun with an exact same result as the previous turn. He rolls an 11. This means he gets 11 shots. He hits 6 times at strength 11. What’s worse is he killed the Hellblasters so these are at Calgar. And even worse a result of 11 shots or over means every hit with the shock gun gets a bonus D3 Mortal wounds on top of normal damage... this wold easily kill Calgar and his last Victrix, leaving me with an Apothecary and Tigurius on the table. I concede because I can only hide for turn 7 and he wins by 2 points.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

I will run my Ultras as Crimson Fists in an upcoming game because the Primaris focused detachment they get has some really nice rules and strats.

 

As much as I want to finally build, paint and play an ultramirnes force this is where I'm still leaning, They get the funky 1cp exploding 6's strat for thier detachments, pluss add bolter drill and storm of fire warlord trait and I think its something to work around. I honestly dont think its worth an additional 2cp to gain rapid fire2 for this.

 

 

- the Redemptor, even in its discounted state, doesn’t really do anything at range. In my opinion it needs a whole sale Codex rewrite. The cheaper dreads will give you more for your money. ( I only say this after about 12 games using it in 2 armies).

 

I've been using two of them in my Deathwatch for the past year and I have a love/hate realtionship with them,. Dishing out 18 St5, -1 D1 is lovely, but its not 'enough'. I end up baby sitting them with my Watchmaster to maximize their damage output, often having the Tome relic nearby to make sure that they do something. With the points drop I like them a little more. 

 

In combat though, the few times I've put them there I've loved them, they do wreck things which is wonderful. I'm tempted to try out three of them together and literally march them forward, accepting the hit mod, and try to get them to swing in combat. That said, I've always thought that repulsors could do their job but better with more firepower and with the points drops this is something I need to look into.