Indomitus Crusaders

[Tamiel]

Sure, here's the army I used in the last game:

>>>Batallion Detachment: Indomitus Crusaders

>>HQ
1xPrimaris Captain In Gravis Armour (((He will be made Field Commander with the stratagem so he can use the Indomitus Crusaders warlord trait despite Guilliman being the real warlord of the army)))

1xChief Librarian Tigurius

 

>>Troops
2x10man intercessor squads (2 grenade launchers, power swords on sgts)

4x10man intercessor squads (2 grenade launchers, power fists on sgts) (((One of these squads will be upgraded to Veteran status for 1CP)))

>>Elites

1xRedemptor Dreadnought (Macro plasma cannon, Onslought Gattling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xFragstrom grenade launchers)

1xPrimaris Apothecary

1xPrimaris Standard Bearer (with the relic "Standard of the Emperor Ascendant")

>>>Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment:

>>Super Heavy:
1xRoboute Guilliman (He is the warlord of the whole army)


If you want to drop stuff, I would reccomend dropping the dreadnought, apothecary, and possibly making the captain a regular primaris captain instead of gravis armour. If you want to drop intercessor squads, I wouldn't drop more than one squad, meaning I would go into every battle with at least 50 intercessors. That's just me, though. This army struggles against T8 or higher enemies, and I've found that only power fists and Guilliman help rectify that. 

[Tamiel]

This list just got a nice buff. 
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/?fbclid=IwAR3cSlUcEj8gktPaw_oynUxyvLgtu55OJPFa1Y60kGFBBa1Nd1minvGTu8g

[Prot]

I think I’m misreading it... a Boltrifle would fire 2 shots at full range if my Primaris doesn’t move? But otherwise it’s 1 shot. Or 2 shots at half range?

[Panzer]

I think I’m misreading it... a Boltrifle would fire 2 shots at full range if my Primaris doesn’t move? But otherwise it’s 1 shot. Or 2 shots at half range?

 

It's quite simple, really.

Rapid fire Bolt weapons for Marines double tap now if one of the following conditions is met:

- at half range

- stationary

- has the Terminator, Centurion, Vehicle or Bike keyword.

 

So a Bolt rifle has 2 shots at 0-15" when moving and 0-30" when stationary.

[Captain Idaho]

So 10 Intercessors can pop the Strategum and fire 40 shots at 30.

 

Not terrible. I'd like to see some play testing results from Primaris users here but it seems like it has utility.

[Tamiel]

I just tested this in a short 1,000pt game. I had four squads of 10man intercessors (Captain + Leuitenant + Librarian  + Standard bearer, all primaris). Anyway, what I wanted to test was just keeping my guys still, especially since one of my 10man intercessor squads was a veteran squad. 

The damage output is acutally really nice. When your veterans stand still and you pop the stratagem that gives them rapid fire 2 weapons, you get a 10man squad outputting 40 shots at 30" range. I've always felt that the big problem about the veteran stratagem was that my 10man vet squad would start to dwindle down as they made their way across the board to get within 15" range. But now you don't have to do that anymore. You can just leave your vet squad stationary and pop the stratagem, getting maximum value from it right from turn 1. For the most part, I was leaving my whole army stationary and I managed to chew through anything that wasn't toughness 8. You do lose significant firepower when you have to move (unless you end your move within 15"), but other than that this new rule is really nice.

 

This is actually a pretty big change to the Indomitus Crusaders formation, in my opinion. Without a doubt all Space Marines benefited from the recent bolter changes, but I think Indomitus Crusaders (especially the veteran intercessor squad) were the big winners. I was already loving this formation, and now it just got a nice buff on top. 

[mel_danes]

Played with this formation tonight.

Regular opponent playing Ork horde, 90+ boys.

Used 2 full 10 man squads of Bolt rifle Interssesors as Veterans. Used the Relic Banner, and Gray Shield warlord trait.

So when play began I had 5 CP. We played a mission from CA18.

I had first turn and popped the Raven Guard chapter trait. Which really did not do a lot, but was fun.

Looking back over the entire battle, using the recycle CP trait world have had more impact.

Getting those extra attacks from my Veterans in CC was huge.

Used the Rapid Fire 2 strat once.

Overall the new bolter rules were fun. The formation was fun.

Very close game.

I won by a single Victory point, and nearly tabled my opponent.

 

Tuning this list, I'll drop the relic banner, keep the Ancient.

Drop the formation warlord trait, use Adept of the Codex.

Bring the Sanctic Halo back.

I had a Redemptor Dred, gave up "First Strike".

Might swap him out for more Inceptors with assault bolters, or drop my Reivers for another Redemptor Dred.

[Lemondish]

Played with this formation tonight.

Regular opponent playing Ork horde, 90+ boys.

Used 2 full 10 man squads of Bolt rifle Interssesors as Veterans. Used the Relic Banner, and Gray Shield warlord trait.

So when play began I had 5 CP. We played a mission from CA18.

I had first turn and popped the Raven Guard chapter trait. Which really did not do a lot, but was fun.

Looking back over the entire battle, using the recycle CP trait world have had more impact.

Getting those extra attacks from my Veterans in CC was huge.

Used the Rapid Fire 2 strat once.

Overall the new bolter rules were fun. The formation was fun.

Very close game.

I won by a single Victory point, and nearly tabled my opponent.

 

Tuning this list, I'll drop the relic banner, keep the Ancient.

Drop the formation warlord trait, use Adept of the Codex.

Bring the Sanctic Halo back.

I had a Redemptor Dred, gave up "First Strike".

Might swap him out for more Inceptors with assault bolters, or drop my Reivers for another Redemptor Dred.

You can use both warlord traits if you use field commander, which you can afford by dropping that extra relic now.

[Prot]

Played with this formation tonight.

Regular opponent playing Ork horde, 90+ boys.

Used 2 full 10 man squads of Bolt rifle Interssesors as Veterans. Used the Relic Banner, and Gray Shield warlord trait.

So when play began I had 5 CP. We played a mission from CA18.

I had first turn and popped the Raven Guard chapter trait. Which really did not do a lot, but was fun.

Looking back over the entire battle, using the recycle CP trait world have had more impact.

Getting those extra attacks from my Veterans in CC was huge.

Used the Rapid Fire 2 strat once.

Overall the new bolter rules were fun. The formation was fun.

Very close game.

I won by a single Victory point, and nearly tabled my opponent.

Tuning this list, I'll drop the relic banner, keep the Ancient.

Drop the formation warlord trait, use Adept of the Codex.

Bring the Sanctic Halo back.

I had a Redemptor Dred, gave up "First Strike".

Might swap him out for more Inceptors with assault bolters, or drop my Reivers for another Redemptor Dred.

I think that’s a good matchup for that type of Ultramarines list. Unfortunately I seem to get stuck against a lot of vehicles..... did he have many lootas? They can be brutal against Primaris if the get on a streak.

 

As mentioned it’s a special ability to take the extra specialist trait for a CP. it might be worth it.

 

The beta Bolters could really work nicely with the rapid fire Strat give. You haven’t moved.

 

Personally Redemptors don’t do a ton for me, but if your playing pure Primaris it’s nice to have the Macrocannon if you don’t have las or a ton of Helblasters.

[mel_danes]

Good idea Lemondish.

I think if I'd waited for a later turn and used the fallback, shoot, assault combo it could have been brutal. I play straight UM, and if I remember right the WS trait would allow for that synthesis.

 

Prot

He uses Lootas and vehicles, just not as many vehicles today.

Typically my target priority is Lootas, which shred my Hellblasters, then his open top Battlewagon with Dethrolla packed with Rokkit boys.

 

Those rokkits with re-rolls to hit against vehicles and flat D3 are brutal.

He had the Battlewagon, a scrapjet buggy, and the Wartrike.

 

Our games are fun and super casual, we regularly remind each other of forgotten rules, he's a chill opponent. That being said playing to win is in there, just not at the expense of a good game.

 

In our after action report he believed he was to aggressive with his wagon round one. He did kill the redemptor, for First Strike but left it positioned in front of 2 min squads of Aggressors(1 bolt, 1 flame), and all my Hellblasters. He backed it up with the Scrapjet Buggy.

 

Popped his wagon with overcharged plasma round 2, then bolted the contents to death, and charged his flamed buggy with a bajillion powerfist attacks.

 

In round one the Dred put the hurt on his Lootas before getting rokkit ripped, so it did some work. Just not as much at I'd like.

 

I've been doing Ground Pounder Primaris for awhile now. The idea of a PA Horde bothers me, but is working pretty well.

 

Some day I might build RG, I'm a fluff player so fielding the Primarch in sub Apocalypse games still feels like Heresey.

 

If I continue with this formation, which I like so far, I'll post future not reports.

[Prot]

I appreciate the feedback. I play in an environment that has a lot of variety and some groups are extremely competitive, and some are fairly relaxed, but in all cases I have a lot of fun.  In either case I try not to run Guilliman, so I appreciate feedback without him just because he makes any list... just so much better and I admit he's well suited to this detachment.

 

Those Tankbustas are brutal.... Custodes Killers. :) And Lootas are just great at stripping Primaris. Sounds like a fun game. :tu:

[Tamiel]

I've been playing with a captain+leuitenant combo instead of Guilliman and yeah, it's not as good. That being said, I like the fact that Guilliman rewards people who go pure Ultramarines. Very few things in 8th ed does that.

[mel_danes]

Depending on finances I'd like to pick up Primaris Rubicon Calgar, and his boys.

Do we have good data on him in this formation?

I read one so far, anybody have experience with the Chapter Master running with the Crusaders post bolter update?

Inquiring Astartes want to know.

[Tamiel]

I've tried out primaris calgar + leuitenant. Wasn't too impressed honestly.

[Prot]

I have not run this formation post beta Bolters, but I have run it with PriMarneus and it’s a tough go. Mind you I’m limiting myself to mostly Primaris which isn’t the brightest idea but I know if I include Guilliman I will start heavily skewing my results.

 

Without Guilliman I believe variety is really best. There’s really no reason to not try to take advantage of Beta Bolters with ‘Classic ‘ unit’s. This has just been a restriction I put on myself.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I have no issues with any using Guilliman at all. I just want to put the formation to a true acid test without such a great force multiplier. Truthfully, I believe Guilliman is well suited to any advancing Ultramarines fire base. That goes without saying, I’m just stubbornly trying to get along without him.

[Captain Idaho]

Makes sense though because the real worth is hard to see when Guilliman is being used. Not just the bonuses he brings to the Marines but also his assault potential which means potential counters to an army using him will not have the same affect.

 

Even when a bit of attrition could occur we don't see it as much since Guilliman is such a strong fighter he rips the heart out of any characters before they go.

 

As such I totally agree to see if the detachments and armies work without him.

[mel_danes]

My current round of tests are entirely primaris, no legacy units what so ever.

It is a personal decision, and I realize it's not optimal.

So Calgar did not carry his weight in battle? I hoped he would help, and bring some CP back into the pool.

[Tamiel]

The 2 CP was the most use Calgar brought for his 200pt cost, in my experience. I found that his melee wasn't doing that great considering his cost. A Primaris Captain in Gravis armour would have done about the same amount of melee damage output for half the price.

[Commander Krag]

Having played the detachment a few times with Calgar I’ve found his addition very helpful. I’ve been running duel Repulsors and 25 intercessors and his rerolls have been a great help for the Repulsors. Plus his 2 additional CP helps with multiple uses of the strategem.

[Prot]

Until very recently I’ve run pure Primaris. One of my last games with the detachment I had dual Repulsors, but lost one and a half of the Repulsors in T1 and it was against Orks of all armies. I also struggled with PriMarneus against Blood Angels And quickly realized that close combat Blood Angels are quite hard to overcome even with Calgar. This in part is why I’m going to take advantage of Beta Bolters and blend in some classic units.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Blood Angels are for real now.

[Lemondish]

Until very recently I’ve run pure Primaris. One of my last games with the detachment I had dual Repulsors, but lost one and a half of the Repulsors in T1 and it was against Orks of all armies. I also struggled with PriMarneus against Blood Angels And quickly realized that close combat Blood Angels are quite hard to overcome even with Calgar. This in part is why I’m going to take advantage of Beta Bolters and blend in some classic units.

Oh ouch. I don't have any Orc players nearby, so I don't know much about them. Are they usually able to punch through 24 T8 2+ wounds per turn?

[mel_danes]

Depends, Tankbustas re-roll failed hits on vehicles, so mitigating some what the low BS. Rokkits are S8, AP-2 flat 3 damage. Dakka, dakka, dakka generates more shots on natural 6's, which re-roll to hit vs vehicles.

Lootas fire d3 shots per, good Str, -1 AP, flat 2 damage.

If your Ork opponent tools up for it, they can trash armor.

[Prot]

Well the problem is you can’t modify More Dakka with any minus to hit making it extremely powerful. Plus with da jump you really can’t hide from it and taking it out of action typically means killing 30ish Grots.

 

Usually my opponents will CP the D3 shot roll, and on a three they then use Showin Off. Since the D3 roll is used for both shooting rounds, and it is unmodified hits of 5+ with More Dakka, firing twice.... I don’t think much lives through that. Tank bustas can clean up a Knight if need be but they are typically free to punch through Custodes or Terminators instead.

 

So add in extra shots on 5 and 6, reroll 1s to hit. They don’t feel anything near like a BS 5 army anymore. This makes the Repulsor a tough choice

 

Basically the above negates saving your Repulsor or LR with Tiggys ability. It’s extremely nasty and I think it’s part of a new meta that will see less of (some) of the super expensive units. They’re just too easy to kill now. Add in Deathwatch and even FlyMarchs days are numbered.

 

In part this is why I am so adamant on the Victrix Guard in my other thread. They aren’t amazing.... but nearly mandatory.

[Lemondish]

Depends, Tankbustas re-roll failed hits on vehicles, so mitigating some what the low BS. Rokkits are S8, AP-2 flat 3 damage. Dakka, dakka, dakka generates more shots on natural 6's, which re-roll to hit vs vehicles.

Lootas fire d3 shots per, good Str, -1 AP, flat 2 damage.

If your Ork opponent tools up for it, they can trash armor.

Just napkin math, but even rerolling all hits they'd need to fire around 60 shots from the tank bustas to cause 24 damage. Seems hard to achieve within 24" turn 1. I must be missing something.

 

Either way, it happened - so what is it that makes them get into range so early and is there a way to combat that with veteran Intercessors?