Vigilus Fluff/Lore Summary

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

 

 

I've never been phased by Logan Grimnar being called a Chapter Master instead of Great Wolf or High-King or what not. People getting triggered over it with the Ironhands is super pendantic.

Except that Logan Grimnar fulfills the office of Chapter Master, Great Wolf is just his title.

The Iron Hands do not have the office of Chapter Master. An Iron Father is elected to lead a campaign, and hold dictator-style power over the chapter—yes, including command of the Exterminatus weapons—but he is not, in fact, a Chapter Master. He returns power to the Iron Council on conclusion of the campaign, and though he might be given that power again, it is because the Iron Council saw fit to grant it to him.

 

Space Wolves have a Chapter Master in all but name. Iron Hands have a Warleader who is not a Chapter Master and should not be named as such. The office of Warleader is not always filled, and the clan companies will often operate independently of one another unless at the direction of the Iron Council or their appointed Warleader.

 

Edit: abhor the typo.

So what you are saying is that, for that campaign he was elected to lead the chapter as a single leader, he is, in fact, a chapter master?

 

If one guy is given control over the entire chapter, whether for 1 day or for life, he is acting as chapter master during that duration.

 

Not quite.

He acts much as the roman dictator does. The Senate gave a dictator power, which he exercised as directed to carry out what was in the interest of Rome.

The Warleader acts much in the same way. He is given power from the Iron Council, and returns it when his term of office (the conclusion of a campaign, usually) is complete. 

Rome did not always have a dictator as the republic, it was governed by the Senate. He was comparable to a king in many ways, but he ultimately had to answer to the Senate, a body within the organization. It is much the same way with the Warleader and the Iron Council. Comparable to a Chapter Master in command and firepower, but ultimately answers to the Iron Council. Chapter Masters answer to no one except the Inquisition and Administratum--and even then there are issues in actual authority of these institutions over a renegade or defiant Chapter Master (Case in point, the Badab War and Logal Grimnar).

[Triszin]

can we keep this about vigilus war.

 

and not what is and isnt a chapter master.

[Brother Tyler]

I've gone through and removed a bunch of non-constructive off topic posts. The mods and I will clean earlier pages similarly.

 

Let's keep this on topic and constructive, folks.

 

If there is an issue with a (perceived) incorrect term, take it up in a separate discussion in the relevant faction's (sub-)forum. Sure, those (incorrect) usages might be related to Vigilus, but they look more like pedantry that is bogging down other discussion.

 

Lets get back to discussing the (new) lore in the Vigilus campaign.

[Beren]

The Stygies VIII Adeptus Mechanicus get three named Magos to play with, although there aren't dtatasheets for them.

The first is Magos Dominus Ipluvius XIV, commanding the Skitarii forces until he is relieved by the second, Archmagos Nesium Caldrike.

The third is Magos Dalathrust, leading Kill Team Gamma-Zhul 881.

 

Well, Dalathrust is the prexistung character from the Kill Team box sets. Is Ipluvius relieved due to incompetence, or is it just that there happened to be someone of a higher rank present?

[Brother Tyler]

 

Also speaking as a history nerd I'd like express my enthusiasm for the fact that the Black Legion, my eternal faction of choice, are now practising the Hellenistic policy of doriktetos khora (spear-won land, δορίκτητος χώρα in Attic), makes me incredibly happy

 

That is all

 

This has to be down to ADB's influence, right? With so much of the Black Legion books and associated BL culture drawing from historical fiction, including the likes of The Afghan Campaign, this is surely how this kind of thing finds its way into the general background.

 

Is the term "spear-won land" used in the lore, though? And does the implementation match the full concept of δορίκτητος χώρα/spear-won land? If so, how?

 

Or is what the Black Legion doing little different from the concept of conquest as practiced in any number of cultures?

 

What is the lore perspective of the book? Or does it shift? For example, the Black Library "history" book about the Thirteenth Black Crusade was written from various perspectives, including occasional omniscient perspectives. Often, though, they were subjective and limited.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Is the term "spear-won land" used in the lore, though? And does the implementation match the full concept of δορίκτητος χώρα/spear-won land? If so, how?

 

Or is what the Black Legion doing little different from the concept of conquest as practiced in any number of cultures?

 

No, the term is not used in the lore. But the term itself is not required for a conquest (or in this case, a pledged conquest) to be categorised as spear-won land. The language appears sporadically in Hellenistic literature but it's as much of a term used by historians today as it was an actual legal definition in antiquity.

 

The term finds its roots in the Iliad, where you'll find Achilles describing his prizes (e.g. Briseis) as being "spear-won", e.g. that which a warrior has won by the strength of his spear arm. Fast forward to the 4th century BCE: before Alexander the Great - an avid acolyte of the Iliad and a Homeric emulator par excellence - leapt ashore as the first Macedonian from his invasion force to set foot in Asia, he cast his spear into the ground and accepted Asia as a gift from the gods, "as won by the spear" (Diod. 17.17.2-3). In the wake of his death, the Diadochi (Successors) to Alexander, lacking legitimacy as they possessed no royal blood, attempted to associate themselves closely with Alexander's legacy in order to accumulate and maintain support. There were a few ways in which they did this, but the principal one was claiming territory as being "land won by the spear". For the duration of the Hellenistic period, this term provided the sole legal basis for the territorial holdings of the Successor kingdoms. There was no "Kingdom of Babylon" or "Kingdom of Egypt", etc, only a series of kings and the lands that they occupied. It was possible for one to be a king and possess no real territory (see Demetrius Poliorcetes).

 

You won't find any of the Hellenistic kings describing themselves as the "King of (x)", except in poorly written Wikipedia articles, until much later in their dynasties' tenure. Territorial holdings were ephemeral; what mattered was military strength, the ideology of kingship. Some of the ways in which this right was exercised can be summarised as follows:

• Taking territory off a rival king (e.g. Seleucus' defeat of Lysimachus at Corupedium)
• Justifying the waging of war (e.g., my ancestor conquered this [x] years ago, and so it is still mine, by right: see Antiochus III in his negotiations with Rome)
• And most relevant of all here, as a herald for a Hellenistic warrior-king (see in particular the Antigonids and Seleucids)

Haarken Worldclaimer's act - casting a spear into the ground and swearing that the planet will fall in 80 days/claiming it for Abaddon - is intrinsically Hellenistic in its execution. We have many of the core components present, and Abaddon himself, being described as a "dark king" here, is a capable Hellenistic ruler:

• He claims territory that was once his, by conquest
• He possesses no royal blood or hereditary claim to said territory
• He is a military leader first and foremost, and his position and security depend entirely upon military success
• Much of his army is operated by independent warlords, many of whom may style themselves kings, but whom are all nominally under the control of their true ruler
• In addition, the soldiers that make up this army owe their loyalty not to a nation or constitution (etc), but to him and him alone

I can't comment on all periods, as my purview is limited to Classical Greek & Hellenistic history, but the concept I've briefly described is explicitly Hellenistic, and if I were writing an article on Hellenistic reception in fiction, this is the kind of example to which I'd point. Even if the the author of the Vigilus book/Haarken character didn't actually mean to evoke Alexander, it doesn't change the legacy of the character's actions. 

 

 

What is the lore perspective of the book? Or does it shift? For example, the Black Library "history" book about the Thirteenth Black Crusade was written from various perspectives, including occasional omniscient perspectives. Often, though, they were subjective and limited.

 

It's all omniscient, there's very little subjective content present in the Vigilus campaign book (it's nothing like the FW black books, for example).

 

edit: atrocious grammar

[Man of Iron]

 

The Stygies VIII Adeptus Mechanicus get three named Magos to play with, although there aren't dtatasheets for them.

The first is Magos Dominus Ipluvius XIV, commanding the Skitarii forces until he is relieved by the second, Archmagos Nesium Caldrike.

The third is Magos Dalathrust, leading Kill Team Gamma-Zhul 881.

Well, Dalathrust is the prexistung character from the Kill Team box sets. Is Ipluvius relieved due to incompetence, or is it just that there happened to be someone of a higher rank present?

 

 

Essentially Iplucius XIV was overconfident and caught up in his studies of the Great Rift. There was even speculation that his cogitator mechanisms were somehow damaged through his observations and research. Their initial war effort suffered severely.

 

"Only when Archmagos Nesium Caldrike seized the malfunctioning Ipluvius XIV, had him placed in cryostorage and took his place, did the Adeptus Mechanicus manage to put together something approaching a coordinated war effort."

[Skullier]

They made the Space Marines win both box sets? That's lame. They could honestly have let either the Genestealers or Eldar win one of those small battles for a change in the box sets. 

[Sete]

They made the Space Marines win both box sets? That's lame. They could honestly have let either the Genestealers or Eldar win one of those small battles for a change in the box sets.

The new hot stuff Primaris losing? Nonsense.

[Panzer]

They made the Space Marines win both box sets? That's lame. They could honestly have let either the Genestealers or Eldar win one of those small battles for a change in the box sets. 

 

It's mainly imperium vs chaos. GSC, Eldar and Orks are just there to make the whole thing bigger but don't think for a second they were ever considered for more than adding some flavour to the imperium vs chaos narrative. ^^

[Shinros]

 

They made the Space Marines win both box sets? That's lame. They could honestly have let either the Genestealers or Eldar win one of those small battles for a change in the box sets. 

 

It's mainly imperium vs chaos. GSC, Eldar and Orks are just there to make the whole thing bigger but don't think for a second they were ever considered for more than adding some flavour to the imperium vs chaos narrative. ^^

 

Pretty much, I like chaos but how they handle Xeno's is a travesty. They are merely side stories, I found it quite perplexing that space marines won both box sets. I was expecting a loss on the genestealer one because they are facing a name character. Anyway maybe GW might surprise us because GSC is getting a big update?

[Canadian_F_H]

I haven't read it, but the way you guys make it sound it was comparable to killing all the rats in your fox hole while waiting for the blitz krieg.

[Shinros]

I haven't read it, but the way you guys make it sound it was comparable to killing all the rats in your fox hole while waiting for the blitz krieg.

It's not bad per say, as someone who likes GSC there is lot's of new lore in there. How cult's are organised into gene-sect's which have their own magus and primus and then the gene-sects are broken down into claws which number about hundred guys or so. I suspect this will be expanded in the new codex, as the OP said it looks clear GW are giving GSC the room to actually grow as characters instead of committing to the uprising and then getting gobbled up by the nids. 

 

I like the world building that's occurring on this planet but it generally feels like this. 1. Xeno causes problems 2. Imperium comes in and deals with them and now 3. chaos is coming to steal the show. It's a repeated form of story telling they do many times. Plus it's very likely Abbadon is coming, the Xeno story with his arrival will obviously cause it to drop to the wayside. (I hope that is not the case.)

 

My hope is Vigilus becomes a planet where all the factions are slapping each other(from what it looks like from the outset), instead of devolving into a Imperium vs chaos plot. 

[Skullier]

I'm just a bit tired that every time a box set has a story Space Marines win. Blackreach, Corinth, Dark Vengeance and now both of these as well. I like Space Marines as much as the next person but writing is bad if you basically have your protagonists winning almost every box set they appear in. Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win  a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Hmm... You know. That makes me wonder if the BA won in shield of Baal deathstorm...

 

Well. Relating to vigilus. How well did the marines win those 2 lead in starters? Where they overwhelming victories? Skin of their teeth? Phyric? I assume the box sets dont give the canon conclusions. So the aftermath of those boxes is in the vigilis book then?

[b1soul]

Forces of "Warlord Krooldakka"...what a name

[Blindhamster]

Hmm... You know. That makes me wonder if the BA won in shield of Baal deathstorm...

 

Well. Relating to vigilus. How well did the marines win those 2 lead in starters? Where they overwhelming victories? Skin of their teeth? Phyric? I assume the box sets dont give the canon conclusions. So the aftermath of those boxes is in the vigilis book then?

Sort of a win, broodlord is slain iirc but the tyranids totallt overrun the world and the few surviving BA have to retreat. Similar to devastation of baal or any other major engagement with BA in it.

 

BA suffer horrific victories, achieve an objective but probably don't with the war without some other marine faction coming to the rescue.

[Panzer]

I'm just a bit tired that every time a box set has a story Space Marines win. Blackreach, Corinth, Dark Vengeance and now both of these as well. I like Space Marines as much as the next person but writing is bad if you basically have your protagonists winning almost every box set they appear in. Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win  a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice. 

 

To be fair the victory in the Damocles campaign was phyric at best. They "won" but couldn't finish it because they were needed somewhere else against Chaos and whatever horrible losses the T'au suffered they recovered from in an extremely short timeframe and even re-conquered the planet they fought over lol

[Beams]

There also seems like there's an absurdly high number of space Marines, and a fairly low number of sisters. I guess the military ordo is only in one spire? And there are what, like 100 companies of space Marines deployed, which seems like a lot to me?

 

And somehow despite haivng approx. 35,000 sisters, 10,000 space Marines, and countless Guardsmen and Ad Mechers, we still soundly trounced by xenos?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Considering that there are probably hundreds of thousands of orks and tens of thousands of stealer cultists (who, I might add, are already inside your defensive perimeters)...I see no issues here.

[Skullier]

Hmm... You know. That makes me wonder if the BA won in shield of Baal deathstorm...

 

Well. Relating to vigilus. How well did the marines win those 2 lead in starters? Where they overwhelming victories? Skin of their teeth? Phyric? I assume the box sets dont give the canon conclusions. So the aftermath of those boxes is in the vigilis book then?

The one with the Broodlord? Yeah they win that one to. Also it doesn't really matter to me how they win, almost everything in 40k is a 'pyrhhic' victory usually, but since it has rarely any impact on the actual story its just window dressing. Just a bit ridiculous they can't let the Space Marines just lose one of these boxed sets.

 

 

I'm just a bit tired that every time a box set has a story Space Marines win. Blackreach, Corinth, Dark Vengeance and now both of these as well. I like Space Marines as much as the next person but writing is bad if you basically have your protagonists winning almost every box set they appear in. Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win  a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice. 

 

To be fair the victory in the Damocles campaign was phyric at best. They "won" but couldn't finish it because they were needed somewhere else against Chaos and whatever horrible losses the T'au suffered they recovered from in an extremely short timeframe and even re-conquered the planet they fought over lol

 

I mean the Damocles campaign had no boxed set as far as I know so it obviously doesn't qualify for anything I'm talking about here. Also I think you're maybe mixing it up a bit, Damocles ended with the Imperium unable to finish taking Agrellan and so leaving and then igniting the Damocles gulf. That being said the Tau recovered just as fast as everyone recovers in 40k (aka as fast as te plot needs to) and they didn't retake Agrellan its confirmed in latest Tau codex Agrellan is just dead so it was completely removed from the Tau. Other than Prefectia and two other Septs the Third Spehre Expansoion failed t do anything actually, the Tau codex says all the few remaining Third Sphere septs are on the verge of falling to the Imperium already cuase of the firestorm and if I remember right the Imperial Knights Codex even has a story about one of them being reconquered. 

[Panzer]

 

Hmm... You know. That makes me wonder if the BA won in shield of Baal deathstorm...

 

Well. Relating to vigilus. How well did the marines win those 2 lead in starters? Where they overwhelming victories? Skin of their teeth? Phyric? I assume the box sets dont give the canon conclusions. So the aftermath of those boxes is in the vigilis book then?

The one with the Broodlord? Yeah they win that one to. Also it doesn't really matter to me how they win, almost everything in 40k is a 'pyrhhic' victory usually, but since it has rarely any impact on the actual story its just window dressing. Just a bit ridiculous they can't let the Space Marines just lose one of these boxed sets.

 

 

I'm just a bit tired that every time a box set has a story Space Marines win. Blackreach, Corinth, Dark Vengeance and now both of these as well. I like Space Marines as much as the next person but writing is bad if you basically have your protagonists winning almost every box set they appear in. Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win  a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice. 

 

To be fair the victory in the Damocles campaign was phyric at best. They "won" but couldn't finish it because they were needed somewhere else against Chaos and whatever horrible losses the T'au suffered they recovered from in an extremely short timeframe and even re-conquered the planet they fought over lol

 

I mean the Damocles campaign had no boxed set as far as I know so it obviously doesn't qualify for anything I'm talking about here. Also I think you're maybe mixing it up a bit, Damocles ended with the Imperium unable to finish taking Agrellan and so leaving and then igniting the Damocles gulf. That being said the Tau recovered just as fast as everyone recovers in 40k (aka as fast as te plot needs to) and they didn't retake Agrellan its confirmed in latest Tau codex Agrellan is just dead so it was completely removed from the Tau. Other than Prefectia and two other Septs the Third Spehre Expansoion failed t do anything actually, the Tau codex says all the few remaining Third Sphere septs are on the verge of falling to the Imperium already cuase of the firestorm and if I remember right the Imperial Knights Codex even has a story about one of them being reconquered. 

 

 

I didn't confuse anything and if you're just talking about campaigns that got a box with models then that's a very limited amount of campaigns to judge things with. Also the gulf isn't even on fire anymore. The great rift snuffed it out.

[Urauloth]

Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win  a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice. 

 

I agree, and also, space marines are interesting to me when they're dying heroically in last stands and the like. Reading about that makes me think "I really want to paint some of these guys". Stomping the xenos of the week really doesn't. This is a big reason why I've always liked FW sourcebooks (like the Badab war) more than a lot of mainline GW campaign narratives I guess.

 

e; people love the story of the Spartans at Thermopylae, right? What happened to those guys? Just saying.

[Sete]

 

 

Neither Wake the Dead or Tooth and Claw are so major that they couldn't have, for variety's sake, just let either the Eldar or the Genestealers win a fight for a change. I mean the Imperium's probably gonna win Vigilus overall anyway, so letting one of the small battle box sets be a win for someone other than Space Marines would have been nice.

I agree, and also, space marines are interesting to me when they're dying heroically in last stands and the like. Reading about that makes me think "I really want to paint some of these guys". Stomping the xenos of the week really doesn't. This is a big reason why I've always liked FW sourcebooks (like the Badab war) more than a lot of mainline GW campaign narratives I guess.

 

e; people love the story of the Spartans at Thermopylae, right? What happened to those guys? Just saying.

And 700 thespians...

[Arkangilos]

I think we have more stories about victories than about defeat, though. I certainly remember more historical victories than defeats. I don't think the outcome is what makes us remember, it's the odds.