When to Introduce Renegade Primaris?

[helterskelter]

So as the timeline is currently in a progressive state and time has passed since the introduction of Primaris when should we start seeing the first ones appear in cannon?

As Cawl pointed out to RG a higher percentage of Ultras (as they have the highest amount of successors) have turned renegade over the millennia, so statically by now a former chapter who may have had primaris or an ultima founding should have gone a bit rogue?

When would people feel something like this needs to be addressed? (some of you may say never, but I'm curious all the same)

[ShallnotGrowOld]

Primaris are effectively brainwashed to a more extreme level to follow the Imperium, if a chapter housing them went renegade, it's likely they would've been the ones to end up on the chopping block of the renegade Chapter Master's ax, HOWEVER, an all-Primaris Chapter would be unable to go renegade for the same reason, unless they are somehow severed from the Imperium and their psycho conditioning long enough to go renegade.

[MARK0SIAN]

I personally think they shouldn’t introduce them, I’d prefer to avoid the two sides being carbon copies of each other if possible. Chaos already has lots of ways to differentiate their marines from loyalist ones. It’s nice for the loyalist ones to have something that isn’t restricted to space wolves or BA.

 

From a fluff perspective, I know some time has passed but relatively speaking it’s not that long at all in the grand scheme of things. I’m not sure that enough has passed (particularly since the end of the crusade and them operating as independent chapters) to realistically justify us starting to see renegade Primaris. Particularly as once you open that door, you’ll see hundreds and hundreds of chaos Primaris in the range and on the table, way more than could be reasonably justified in the fluff. It’s the same as when mortarion was released, suddenly this Primarch was fighting in every chaos battle from a cult of three dudes fighting with a preacher to an apocalypse style fight.

 

I think if they are going to introduce something it would make more sense for someone like Fabius to copy the process or the rubicon Primaris and create chaos versions rather than have a significant number go rogue.

[Panzer]

Primaris are effectively brainwashed to a more extreme level to follow the Imperium, if a chapter housing them went renegade, it's likely they would've been the ones to end up on the chopping block of the renegade Chapter Master's ax, HOWEVER, an all-Primaris Chapter would be unable to go renegade for the same reason, unless they are somehow severed from the Imperium and their psycho conditioning long enough to go renegade.

 

Actually Blood of Iax suggests that the brainwashing for Primaris is less complete.

[PeteySödes]

From a purely game perspective I don’t think they will. So many balance issues are present due to, or exacerbated by, the fact that a ton of factions needing unique rules share the stat pool. Making loyal terminators more tough undermines DG terminators etc.

 

Decoupling astartes was, I suspect, a large part of why they made them in the first place beyond sales.

[Captain_Krash]

Is there any current fluff from the Chaos perspective of fighting Pirmaris? And basically alerting Fabius Bile lol?

 

Fabius would love to have his hands all up in that.

 

Krash

[Ishagu]

There are some lore snippets that every Primaris has a failsafe chip in his brain (Cawl has redundancies). Could be there to blow up in case of heretical behavior or to execute an order 66 type scenario. One thing that has changed in terms of how Marines operate is that RG insists on Chapters working closer together. In a way this prevents any massive divergence in the way of thinking and Chapters won't be left by themselves for Thousands of years without any co-operation.

 

I personally think that we won't see Chaos Primaris. The original Chaos marines were Spiky mirrors of the loyalists. It is known that GW made the range as a cost effective way to bring villains into the setting - you could re-pack a lot of kits with an extra sprue to decorate the units with some Chaos stuff.

The new Death Guard range is a great way to bring diversity and a unique spin to a Chaos force. They still have some legacy units like the Rhino and Raider but a lot of the other options are new, unique and divergent.

 

I personally don't want to see Chaos Primaris not because it's an impossibility but because GW can create a range of traitor Marines which is more divergent and unique then simply loyalists with spikes or chaos taint. I'm actually really excited for the Emperor's Children - they could be like the Death Guard. Mostly new, unique units and a few legacy vehicles. I would love to see a new men style unit that Fabius has created - perhaps even greater than the Primaris but with some interesting quirks?

 

Going into the gaming side of things, it's better for the game when units aren't shared between factions as it means loyalists and traitors can be adjusted independently. One thing I love about the Primaris is his every unit has a unique role and unique wargear. It means you can adjust the Plasmas on Inceptors without having any impact to the Plasmas that the Hellblasters carry, for example. If one unit or a type of wargear isn't performing well it can be changed entirely without impacting the rest of the range.

[helterskelter]

But if we don't see them, do we expect them to be a bunch of Mary sue super super soldiers, impervious to taint, thus negating half the reason of grey knights existing?

I don't want chaos primaris models by any stretch, but I do need the story to make them fallible, should we expect CSM to start claiming worlds outside the eye and start collecting proper tithes? Should we also expect no new renegade chapters, because eventually all marines are going to be primaris (give it a decade real time) or are we expecting old legions to start expanding again and reforming into more substantial groupings to account for lack of "easier" influx in renegade imperial?

[Ishagu]

I think it comes down to whether we want the story to just keep repeating itself. I'm not saying the Primaris need to be perfect but they don't need to be as flawed as what came before in the way of thinking, mutations, Heresy, etc.

 

Would it not be interesting if they do openly make some Chapters from traitor Geneseed and those chapters remain staunch and loyal, indicating that it was indeed the work of the corrupted Primarchs themselves that led their forces to damnation and not some flaw that made them prone to betrayal on a grand level? Imagine the stories that could arise from loyalists Iron Warrior successors coming face to face with their fallen brothers and how interesting it could be. The "genetic legacy doesn't need to define our destiny" vs we are what we are."

 

One thing I personally hope not to see is Horus Heresy 2.0

When further loyalist Primarchs return it would be nice if they have a new dynamic to their character.

[Marshal Rohr]

How would an Ultima Chapter made from Iron Warriors geneseed 1) be aware of anything about the Iron Warriors and 2) have any reason to be disloyal? Its been ten thousand years. That would be like someone from Egypt feeling conflicted about his loyalty because some ancient prince turned on a Pharaoh. Utterly ridiculous to even try and connect the two,

[Ishagu]

I said made OPENLY. The chapter itself would be aware of their generic heritage, even if it isn't widely known to the more zealous elements of the Imperium

 

There is a theme to 40k. Secrets lead to bad things. The Emperor kept the chaos powers a secret from his sons, the Dark Angels keep a secret that prevents them from their duty, the Mechanicus keeping secrets leads to technological regression, etc

 

A new and interesting story would be a chapter of questionable heritage proving to itself end the Imperium that the past doesn't have to be repeated, and not keeping things a secret.

[Prot]

There's too many hints in the lore now that Fabius is playing around with these Primaris to ignore it. 

 

It's only a matter of time as far as I'm concerned. I say this from a financial, as well as evolutionary point of view. When GW introduces modes (unless a character) is it usually a new unit. They rarely do direct replacement anymore unless there is a huge selling point. 

 

We're at a point where Abaddon has decided to make his move. I don't think anyone here would be surprised if he decided to do so with the assistance of GMO Chaos Marines.

 

The thing is GW can do this without simply 'mirroring' Primaris. They don't have to do it in a negative way, but I do see an elite version of Intercessors for Chaos being very plausible (There would be less of them, they would be modified CSM). 

 

If Vigilus doesn't bring them in, I could see it by mid 2019.

[Tichinde]

I think it would be more interesting to see some of the traitor legions reborn as loyalist Primaris.

 

 

not that I am biased....

 

[Ishagu]

I think it would be more interesting to see some of the traitor legions reborn as loyalist Primaris.

 

 

not that I am biased....

 

This is exactly what I'm getting at!

[Panzer]

There's too many hints in the lore now that Fabius is playing around with these Primaris to ignore it. 

 

It's only a matter of time as far as I'm concerned. I say this from a financial, as well as evolutionary point of view. When GW introduces modes (unless a character) is it usually a new unit. They rarely do direct replacement anymore unless there is a huge selling point. 

 

We're at a point where Abaddon has decided to make his move. I don't think anyone here would be surprised if he decided to do so with the assistance of GMO Chaos Marines.

 

The thing is GW can do this without simply 'mirroring' Primaris. They don't have to do it in a negative way, but I do see an elite version of Intercessors for Chaos being very plausible (There would be less of them, they would be modified CSM). 

 

If Vigilus doesn't bring them in, I could see it by mid 2019.

 

Bile is doing a lot of things but enhancing marines was always just a side project on his quest to create better humans. If he does anything with Primaris on a scale that would make it plausible to include on the table top then I assume it'll be some completely different monstrosity than just Primaris with spikes. Potentially not even recognizable as coming from the Primaris enhancements.

I think it would be more interesting to see some of the traitor legions reborn as loyalist Primaris.

 

 

not that I am biased....

 

 

*cough* Sons of the Phoenix *cough*

 

[Dragonlover]

=][= Lets not start a round of fluff-credential examining, eh? =][=

 

Dragonlover

[RikuEru]

I would be against Primaris Renegade Chapters. Atleast for now. It's too soon and they would have crashed and failed too hard to be in any way evocative.

Of course they shouldn't be Mary Sues. And I think they WILL fail in time and fall to Chaos - but I would assume Chaos Marines or especially former Legionnaires would belittle these new tools of the Imperium even more than loyalist Astartes do.

 

Also I would assume that the Belisarian Furnace not only makes the Primaris more survivable, but also works as a failsafe device. Once triggered, the Marine goes into overdrive and can survive even hardier circumstances. But without treatment, he will just burn-out and die.

 

I think this could work as a failsafe. And if it is, it would be Cawl's hidden Masterpiece in the Primaris' creation.

Also, I would assume, that Roboute (and the other Primarchs, especially Leman and Lion, if they were involved) specifically requested him to implement if in any way possible.

 

Of course later on, some time down the line there could be ways to circumvent this or even abuse it (Pain feeding into Slaanesh, Tzeentch letting them burn up so they turn into new Rubricae like, Khorne making Berzerkers out of them), atleast in character specific circumstances.

[Honda]

+++ MOD VOICE: Ok, congratulations, Santa mods have added some names to the Naughty list. There are worse things to receive on Christmas than coal.

 

Keep it civil.

 

Santa isn't in the mood to jack around.

[Lexington]

From a fluff perspective, I know some time has passed but relatively speaking it’s not that long at all in the grand scheme of things. I’m not sure that enough has passed (particularly since the end of the crusade and them operating as independent chapters) to realistically justify us starting to see renegade Primaris.

Ehh, I dunno, that's an odd way to think about time, and everything's relative to context. When compared to "the grand scheme of things," humanity's barely existed for the blink of an eye, even in the grim darkness of the far future. The 200+ years (I think?) between the Indominuts Crusade's start and 40K's present is still well beyond what a real-world human has ever lived. There's a lot of changes of heart that could occur in that span of time.

 

The original Chaos marines were Spiky mirrors of the loyalists. It is known that GW made the range as a cost effective way to bring villains into the setting - you could re-pack a lot of kits with an extra sprue to decorate the units with some Chaos stuff.

Pretty sure this isn't true at all. The original RT-era Chaos Marines were very different from the Loyalist ones - crazy sculpts with tubes and nonsense running in all directions, skull helmets, and all those memorable 90's-era Power Poses. They edged a bit closer to the "spiky Loyalist" versions during 2nd Edition as the background re-focused on the post-Heresy Legions, but even then their sculpts were completely unique. AFAIK, the only kits that've ever gotten "official" Loyalist/Traitor releases like you're talking about are the Rhino-chassis vehicles and the Land Raider.

 

As for Chaos Primaris, I assume we'll see them sooner or later. The hooks for their eventual existence - whether as traitors or Bile-crafted originals or whatever - have been set down, and there's a pretty good chance that they'll pull the trigger on it one way or another sometime. The modern Studio seems to view Chaos much more as aspects of the Gods rather than as independent mortals (a trash turn from Andy Chambers' much more interesting 2nd Ed version of things, IMO, but, eh, that's another topic...), so I think when we see them, they'll be fairly God-aligned.

[Shinespider]

I used to think it was inevitable, but at this point I'm firmly on team it-won't-happen.

 

That said, while I'm very excited about loyalist-legion marines eventually showing up, I think Tichinde's approach is unlikely. The Imperium might eventually decide to make use of the frozen Thousand Sons, for instance, but there's no way in hell they'd have them use of the original Thousand Sons name or iconography. 

[Tichinde]

Ha ha! yeah, I agree. it would be quite interesting to see "loyalist" Primaris go up against their traitor counterparts, but as you say, it would be more likely to have them all Deathwatch, or disguised in some way (so as not to upset the Wolves :-) ).

 

I just have a lot of bits lying around to give my Primaris a nice alternative look and love the thousand sons aesthetic.

 

I think we will probably see some traitor Primaris but not for a while. I mean, Chaos needs an answer to the rising tide of Primaris lieutenants!

[Robbienw]

It’s inevitable and will happen at some point, even if it only happens in small numbers. Only the absolute best of the best are immune to chaos, the grey knights and the custodes. Every other imperial organisation has some who become traitors.

 

I dont think they’ll do it now whilst Primaris are still being developed and promoted as super duper, but definitely in another few years time.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

From a fluff perspective, I know some time has passed but relatively speaking it’s not that long at all in the grand scheme of things. I’m not sure that enough has passed (particularly since the end of the crusade and them operating as independent chapters) to realistically justify us starting to see renegade Primaris.

Ehh, I dunno, that's an odd way to think about time, and everything's relative to context. When compared to "the grand scheme of things," humanity's barely existed for the blink of an eye, even in the grim darkness of the far future. The 200+ years (I think?) between the Indominuts Crusade's start and 40K's present is still well beyond what a real-world human has ever lived. There's a lot of changes of heart that could occur in that span of time.

The problem isn’t that 200 years isn’t enough time for 1 or 2 guys to have a change of heart (and really it’s only 100 since the Crusade ended). It’s the fact that for them to be viable unit for chaos, literally thousands of Primaris marines, dozens of chapters would’ve had to go renegade in a 100 years. The sheer number that would’ve had to defect to make their presence on the table or in a he battles believable would be stretching the bounds of believability for me.

[Elzender]

While I know it is not really comparable, we should have in mind that Space Marine Legions only had existed for around 200 years before half of them defected from the Imperium. 100 years might be enough for some conflict to start taking root and evebtually causing some Primaris to break their oaths to the Imperium, especially those from chapters that treat them like abominations or 2nd class marines.

[Panzer]

Back then the Legions mostly turned because their Primarchs got corrupted tho. Now in 40k the organisations are smaller and they don't have Primarchs that turn which they could follow. A chapter master turning to chaos wouldn't have nearly the same impact as a Primarch since he's lacking the primarch aura for example.