When to Introduce Renegade Primaris?

[Marshal Loss]

I'm torn. On one hand, I fully agree with this:

 

I just want the setting to be making sense, and Chaos corrupts.

 

It's not in line with the established lore if the Primaris are incorruptible and immune to all of their gene-sire's flaws, etc. Wholly inappropriate.

 

But on the other, I want Chaos to have absolutely nothing to do with the Primaris lore. Allowing Primaris into the ranks of Chaos would inevitably, with the way GW's writers are, shift the focus from those traitors who have been in hell ten millennia to Cawl pattern this and Cawl pattern that. I'm making the assumption here that they will never introduce Primaris transformation for CSM as it's pretty clear they're committed to rescaling the CSM line without bastardising the lore. Maybe some horrific monsters created by Bile, but that's it.

 

So for now it's a firm "never" from me.

[Evil Eye]

Speaking as someone who doesn't dislike the Primaris Marines or their lore (some of the execution, yes, but that's another story), I'm of the opinion that Chaos should have access to Primaris Marines, but in limited quantities and not with the exact same equipment and variations. I don't think we need to "Primaris-ify" existing CSM characters as if they need a fluff excuse for rescaling there's always Warp shenanigans, but I do think that renegade Primaris Marines would be interesting.

If I were contacted by GW and told "We need to come up with backstory and ideas for Chaos Primaris" I'd probably go with the following:

 

None are immune to the siren song of Chaos, not even Cawl's mighty Primaris Space Marines. Inevitably, as time went on, some of these warriors began to fall from grace and into the clutches of the Dark Gods. They inevitably migrated towards the many Warp storms that had ravaged the galaxy and the tainted worlds therein, throwing in their lot with existing warbands or forming their own.

 

However, the power of the Immaterium had a most unusual effect on them- a great deal were very quickly reduced to mewling Chaos Spawn, or otherwise laid low by mutation. The survivors meanwhile grew even larger and more powerful than they had once been, becoming veritable demigods even amongst the Traitor Legions. Thus, the few who could withstand the warping power of Chaos without being destroyed in the process became the first of the Imperium's new worst nightmare- the so-called "Marines Diabolicus".

Though few in number, the Diabolicus are stronger, tougher and generally more dangerous than the vast majority of traitors, and are even superlative to the Primaris they once called brothers. They appear to be heavily favoured by the gods, and frequently exhibit drastic mutations and other signs of Chaotic influence. Fortunately, they are very rare, to the point that a warband can count themselves fortunate if they have even ten Diabolicus in their ranks. Most of their wargear has been either replaced or heavily warped from its original form, although vestiges of their former roles remain.

 

The four Chaos Gods seem to affect renegade Primaris very differently, and certain varieties appear more commonly in service to different powers. Diabolicus dedicated to Khorne become extremely muscular and swell  greatly in size, often sprouting natural weapons such as claws, horns and fangs with which to rend and tear their foes. In addition, most Inceptors that go renegade tend to fall to Khorne and become the dreaded Bloodhawk Hosts- jump packs twist into bony pinions, feet become snatching talons and their guns are replaced with all manner of cruel melee weaponry. Meanwhile, Nurgle's followers become great corpulent things, their armour fusing with their bodies to become scabrous, rust-furred carapaces that render the already tough vessels of contagion nigh-on indestructible. More worrying is that bearers of Gravis Armour such as Aggressors are prone to falling to Nurgle, becoming fearsome Crustshell Brethren- fearsome soldiers of decay that are barely recognizable as more than massive bulks of rotting armour. Those that fall to Slaanesh become unnaturally quick and incredibly perceptive, with heavily mutated sensory organs capable of seeing into the minds of their foes. Curiously, extra limbs are common amongst Slaaneshi Diabolicus. Also, Reivers are strangely prone to fall to the Dark Prince, becoming Soulstalker Packs, sinuous, gangrel creatures with animalistic gait and the disturbing ability to hide themselves in plain sight, whilst their throats twist into sonic weapons able to liquefy brains with a scream. Finally, those that follow Tzeentch often exhibit more metaphysical corruptions, notably becoming ethereal, wraith-like beings or becoming wreathed in flame. The Hellblasters are oddly receptive to becoming puppets of the Great Conspirator, forming the Balesun Cabals; their plasma weapons merge with them and they become abominations constantly aflame with stellar plasma, which they can project in great gouts that leave nothing but shadows on the ground of their victims.

[Guest]

I'm torn. On one hand, I fully agree with this:

 

 

I just want the setting to be making sense, and Chaos corrupts.

 

It's not in line with the established lore if the Primaris are incorruptible and immune to all of their gene-sire's flaws, etc. Wholly inappropriate.

 

But on the other, I want Chaos to have absolutely nothing to do with the Primaris lore. Allowing Primaris into the ranks of Chaos would inevitably, with the way GW's writers are, shift the focus from those traitors who have been in hell ten millennia to Cawl pattern this and Cawl pattern that. I'm making the assumption here that they will never introduce Primaris transformation for CSM as it's pretty clear they're committed to rescaling the CSM line without bastardising the lore. Maybe some horrific monsters created by Bile, but that's it.

 

So for now it's a firm "never" from me.

Primaris aren't immune though. In Dark Imperium and Blood of Iax the Primaris felt the pull of chaos. In fact Blood of Iax has a great passage about it where the Primaris had to talk to a chaplain about it and how he felt chaos corruption.

[Arkangilos]

I’d rather the chaos version be based on the new men that Fabius has been working on for a long time rather than traitor Primaris.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Primaris aren't immune though. In Dark Imperium and Blood of Iax the Primaris felt the pull of chaos. In fact Blood of Iax has a great passage about it where the Primaris had to talk to a chaplain about it and how he felt chaos corruption.

 

I didn't say they were immune. I said it would be inappropriate if they were immune.

[Guest]

 

Primaris aren't immune though. In Dark Imperium and Blood of Iax the Primaris felt the pull of chaos. In fact Blood of Iax has a great passage about it where the Primaris had to talk to a chaplain about it and how he felt chaos corruption.

 

 

I didn't say they were immune. I said it would be inappropriate if they were immune.

My bad, late night reading and replying.

[Moonreaper666]

Speaking as someone who doesn't dislike the Primaris Marines or their lore (some of the execution, yes, but that's another story), I'm of the opinion that Chaos should have access to Primaris Marines, but in limited quantities and not with the exact same equipment and variations. I don't think we need to "Primaris-ify" existing CSM characters as if they need a fluff excuse for rescaling there's always Warp shenanigans, but I do think that renegade Primaris Marines would be interesting.

If I were contacted by GW and told "We need to come up with backstory and ideas for Chaos Primaris" I'd probably go with the following:

 

None are immune to the siren song of Chaos, not even Cawl's mighty Primaris Space Marines. Inevitably, as time went on, some of these warriors began to fall from grace and into the clutches of the Dark Gods. They inevitably migrated towards the many Warp storms that had ravaged the galaxy and the tainted worlds therein, throwing in their lot with existing warbands or forming their own.

 

However, the power of the Immaterium had a most unusual effect on them- a great deal were very quickly reduced to mewling Chaos Spawn, or otherwise laid low by mutation. The survivors meanwhile grew even larger and more powerful than they had once been, becoming veritable demigods even amongst the Traitor Legions. Thus, the few who could withstand the warping power of Chaos without being destroyed in the process became the first of the Imperium's new worst nightmare- the so-called "Marines Diabolicus".

Though few in number, the Diabolicus are stronger, tougher and generally more dangerous than the vast majority of traitors, and are even superlative to the Primaris they once called brothers. They appear to be heavily favoured by the gods, and frequently exhibit drastic mutations and other signs of Chaotic influence. Fortunately, they are very rare, to the point that a warband can count themselves fortunate if they have even ten Diabolicus in their ranks. Most of their wargear has been either replaced or heavily warped from its original form, although vestiges of their former roles remain.

 

The four Chaos Gods seem to affect renegade Primaris very differently, and certain varieties appear more commonly in service to different powers. Diabolicus dedicated to Khorne become extremely muscular and swell greatly in size, often sprouting natural weapons such as claws, horns and fangs with which to rend and tear their foes. In addition, most Inceptors that go renegade tend to fall to Khorne and become the dreaded Bloodhawk Hosts- jump packs twist into bony pinions, feet become snatching talons and their guns are replaced with all manner of cruel melee weaponry. Meanwhile, Nurgle's followers become great corpulent things, their armour fusing with their bodies to become scabrous, rust-furred carapaces that render the already tough vessels of contagion nigh-on indestructible. More worrying is that bearers of Gravis Armour such as Aggressors are prone to falling to Nurgle, becoming fearsome Crustshell Brethren- fearsome soldiers of decay that are barely recognizable as more than massive bulks of rotting armour. Those that fall to Slaanesh become unnaturally quick and incredibly perceptive, with heavily mutated sensory organs capable of seeing into the minds of their foes. Curiously, extra limbs are common amongst Slaaneshi Diabolicus. Also, Reivers are strangely prone to fall to the Dark Prince, becoming Soulstalker Packs, sinuous, gangrel creatures with animalistic gait and the disturbing ability to hide themselves in plain sight, whilst their throats twist into sonic weapons able to liquefy brains with a scream. Finally, those that follow Tzeentch often exhibit more metaphysical corruptions, notably becoming ethereal, wraith-like beings or becoming wreathed in flame. The Hellblasters are oddly receptive to becoming puppets of the Great Conspirator, forming the Balesun Cabals; their plasma weapons merge with them and they become abominations constantly aflame with stellar plasma, which they can project in great gouts that leave nothing but shadows on the ground of their victims.

Yeah, this I support

 

Though maybe Chaos Primaris should be much rarer but also more powerful

 

Like the Black Legion only has 5 Chaos Primaris out of 2 Million Marines

[Panzer]

I guess people could always use some Primaris with melee weapons as Possessed counts-as and HQs if they really want to have traitor Primaris in their armies. They are likely to appear in the fluff eventually since they don't have anything that would protect them from getting corrupted but I doubt we'll ever see a Chaos Intercessor unit or whatever on the table.

[Azekai]

Squigsquasher is just straight up posting GW's playbook, complete with easily trademarked names like 'Crustshell Brethern' and 'Balesun Cabals.'

You heard it here first, folks.  

[Evil Eye]

Gasp! I have been exposed!

 

In all seriousness I wouldn't mind Chaos Primaris/"Diablolicus Marines" being much rarer/more elite but also much more powerful than their "regular" counterparts. It would not only make it less "Loyalists with spikes" and allow for a completely different playstyle to loyal Primaris, but also make Primaris as a concept more interesting and attractive (both fluff and crunch wise) than "Totally not Truescale, guys"; part of the problem with Primaris at the moment is that whilst they do have flaws (notably being far more naive and "green" than their battle-proven comrades) they aren't heavily expanded upon, leaving them prone to coming across as shiny new toys with little backstory or worse, blatant Mary Sues. Adding Chaos Primaris, and thus expanding on their flaws- both those unique to them and those they share with every loyal human- would do a lot to get rid of that.

In terms of how I'd "do" Chaos Primaris crunchwise...

>To start with, there'd be a cap on the amount of Chaos Primaris a force could take (possibly scaling with points/power levels). This would tie in to their increased power and in-universe rarity. Also, it probably wouldn't be possible to take a force entirely out of Chaos Primaris, in-universe because there aren't that many of them that survive the gods' "favour" and IRL to avoid cheese.

>Chaos "Intercessors" would be closer to Chosen +1 than CSM +1, and would be Elites. They'd have a large amount of customization options, most notably special/heavy weapons. They would still have better weapons than average CSM, though probably not identical to the Primaris Bolt Rifle variants. Individually they'd be better than a loyal Primaris, though obviously fewer in number.

>Chaos Marks would have pronounced effects on Chaos Primaris of all stripes (the most extreme of course being the "cult" units). Khorne units would get much better melee capability and increased survivability, especially against psychic attacks (maybe even complete immunity to Smite). Nurgle would get the obligatory increase in toughness and maybe an extra wound, along with Disgustingly Resilient. Slaanesh units would benefit from a drastically improved movement speed and an increase in the number of attacks. Tzeentch would get psychic shenanigans and improved shooting abilities.

>As mentioned above, the variations of Primaris (Inceptor, Aggressor, Reiver and Hellblaster) would become "cult" troops, though they would barely be recognizable as the units they once were. Bloodhawks would be fast-moving melee specialists that hit like a train filled with dynamite, Crustshells would be the embodiment of "WHY WON'T THE BLOODY THING DIE ARGH" trading out the offensive power for greater resilience, Soulstalkers would play like a combination of how Mandrakes, Warp Talons and Lictors were supposed to (so hit-and-running stealthy terror weapons) whilst Balesuns would be...well, they'd be pretty similar to stock Hellblasters really except fewer in number and with more dakka per man.

>Chaos Primaris HQ would be monstrously powerful; they're the biggest and baddest of the big and bad, and would have more extreme mutations than the "rabble" (barring the "cult" troops). I don't really have many ideas beyond them being heavily customizable absolute lumps of murder.

>Repulsor tanks wouldn't carry over, presumably because the means to maintain them just aren't available in the Eye of Terror or wherever. However, techno-heresy being what it is means that Chaos transports can carry Chaos Primaris, though they do take up more space than regular CSM.

>Redemptor Dreadnoughts don't carry over either as any Chaos player who bought one probably did so to make it into a Leviathan.

TLDR: Chaos Primaris would make regular Primaris more interesting. Also Chaos Primaris should not be regular Primaris units with spikes on.

[Panzer]

I like that your idea of chaos Primaris is basically what Chosen are supposed to be but done correctly. :P