2600pts Ultramarines need help against my Iron Warriors

[thecrusadeeternal]

This is perhaps an unusual request for some help.  I have both an Iron Warriors and an Ultramarines army I have been slowly been building up.  I have deliberately kept the Iron Warriors artillery focused and the Ultramarines more all-rounders, since I think that suits their narrative.  The trouble is the Iron Warriors are annihilating the Ultramarines with their rapier quad launchers, siege Tyrants and Legion Basilisks, which just hide in cover the way they are meant to.

 

The Iron Warriors

• HQ:
  • Warsmith: Cataohractii Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer, Combi Weapon (Volkite Charger)
• Elites:
  • 1 x Iron Circle Domitar Ferrum Battle Automaton
  • 2 x Contemptor Dreadnoughts (Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon), Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with in-built multi melta
  • 6 x Terminators (Cataphractii Terminator Armour: 2 x Chain Fist, 2 x Chain Axe, 2 x Power Fist; 5 x Combi-bolters, 1 x Heavy Flamer)
  • 3 x Rapier Quad Launcher with Shatter Shells
• Troops:
  • Tactical Squad: 10 x Tactical Space Marines, Sergeant with combi-melta and nuncio vox
    • ​Rhino
  • Tactical Squad: 10 x Tactical Space Marines, Sergeant with combi-melta and nuncio vox. 
    • Terrax Pattern Termite
  • Breacher Siege Squad: 10 x Breacher Siege Space Marines, Sergeant with combi-melta and nuncio vox. 2 x melta guns
  • Tactical Support Squad: 5 x Tactical Space Marines.  Sergeant with combi-melta, 4 x melta guns.  
    • ​Terrax Pattern Termite
• ​Heavy Support
  • ​Tyrant Siege Terminator Squad: 7 x Tyrant Terminators (Cyclone Missile Launchers, Boltguns, Power Fists)
  • 2 x Legion Basilisk

 

The Basilisks and Siege Tyrant Terminators hide in cover and shell anything they can, while the Contemptors and Battle Automaton babysit the quad mortars.  Meanwhile the Terrax Pattern Termites pop up behind the enemy back line and keep them occupied.

 

The Iron Warriors will soon be joined by a Spartan, a Deredeo Dreadnought and another Iron Circle Battle Automaton.  Any thoughts on further expanding the army?

 

The Ultramarines

 

 

• HQ:
  • Praetor: (Cataohractii Terminator Armour, Chain Fist, Combi Weapon (Melta Gun))
  • Damocles Command Rhino: extra armour
• Elites:
  • 6 x Invictarus Suzerains: 5 x Legatine Axe, 1 x Thunder Hammer (Praetor's Body guard)
    • Land Raider Phobos
  • 6 x Invictarus Suzerains: 5 x Legatine Axe, 1 x Thunder Hammer
    • Rhino
  • 2 x Contemptor Dreadnoughts (Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon), Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with in-built multi melta
  • 6 x Terminators (Cataphractii Terminator Armour: 2 x Chain Fist, 2 x Chain Axe, 2 x Power Fist; 5 x Combi-bolters, 1 x Heavy Flamer)
• Troops:
  • Tactical Squad: 10 x Tactical Space Marines, Sergeant with combi-melta and nuncio vox
    • Rhino
  • Breacher Siege Squad: 10 x Breacher Siege Space Marines, Sergeant with combi-melta and nuncio vox. 2 x melta guns
  • Tactical Support Squad: 5 x Tactical Space Marines.  Sergeant with combi-melta, 4 x melta guns.
    • Rhino
• ​Heavy Support
  • ​Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought: (Aiolos Missile Launcher, Anvilius Pattern autocannon battery, twin-linked heavy bolter)
  • 2 x Predator Tanks: Predator Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons
• ​Rite of War:
  • ​The Logos Lectora

The Predators and Land Raider quickly get picked off by the basilisks, siege tyrants and quad launchers (thanks to sunder) so the Suzerain never really get sufficiently close to the enemy to cause any trouble.  The Deredeo requires line of sight and earns his points but is a high-priority target.  The terminators are very underwhelming but maybe they need a transport.

 

The Ultramarines will soon be joined by another predator, a Spartan and a Sicaran but their problem seems to be that they cannot hide in cover. Any thoughts on how to even the battle with the Iron Warriors (following another thread I am thinking of changing the Praetor for a Chaplain).  Do I need some Fast Attack, some better Heavy Support?

 

To summarise, I am looking for a way to make the Ultramarines more competitive while not trying to copy the Iron Warriors.  Thanks in advance 

 

[Vykes]

Aye, I can see what you mean.  That Iron Warriors force is pretty arty heavy but it's also pinpoint with a lot of mean 'tournament' choices that really are pretty high end efficiency without much padding or fat.  After reading Slaves to Darkness, (and taking into account my own proclivities) adding fat via more foot breachers is usually where I'd go.  As it is, it's a pretty competitive list, the Ultramarines feels like a pretty big display force that feels like it would struggle.  If you're constantly playing with the Logos Lectora, yeah, this may be one of the hardest possible match ups for the Ultramarines that I can imagine.

 

Alright, lets see, while the 13th aren't my strong suit, But with the Logos Lectora, aren't the 13th short one compulsory troop choice? Logos is also really shredding some of the usual 'Fire and Forget' options because they can't Deep Strike or infiltrate, which immediately cuts out my suggestions of Anvillus Seekers, and we're running pretty tight on the Infantry-to-Tank ratio there, too. 

 

My gut reaction in looking at this is the usual air-cadre might work best: the Fire Raptor.  Because it can effectively target multiple opponents, and doesn't have to deepstrike, it's a dangerous mid-armour buster capable of cracking open backfield armour support by dint of its movement (which the ultramarines are short on).  If there's a spartan on the field for the Iron Warriors, the typical Kraken-packin' lightning would be nice. But both are flyers, and the Rite here is gonna hurt. No question about it for me, the Ultras also need more infantry and they might very well need foot infantry to give you the option to pursue more armour while being capable of taking objectives (Which, right now, they seem less capable of in a 2.5-3K environment).  I'm seriously kinda stumped as right now I'm thinking on the Spartan with flare shield/armoured ceramite which, with proper positioning, makes it pretty impervious to most of the Iron Warrior's heavy weapons. Combined with a strong enough infantry presence to take and hold objectives later on (something as simple as Tactical squads with an apothecary for sheer numbers) might be enough to contest a battle on that front. 

 

Oye, and welcome to the fold, mate!

[richmarine]

Having only played Ultras a few times and being ridiculously meticulous with my unit selection I can suggest the following.

 

All your units need some kind of transport. I'd stay away from fortifications because those are the Iron warriors strengths. I'd also stay clear of the air support because the siege tyrants will wave goodbye to them very quickly. (these guys kill Titans).

 

Terminators aren't that good for ultras as the Suzerains will fill that slot. therefore no Spartan required unless you combine the two suzerains into one large squad and ride around with the praetor. Personally I run a Land Raider with Praetor, chaplain, Apothecary and a suzerain command squad. If you do this the Praetor will need to leave the terminator armour at Macragge.

 

Ultramarine strength is shooting. You can use a unit to Tag a enemy and then unload to get your re-rolls to Wound/Pen. however this only works If the Tanks shoot first or another infantry unit shoots first. You'll see most ultramarine armies have a rhino to fulfil the "tagging" roll. A volkite squad will murder light armour and infantry like this, Or a lascannon squad.

 

Meltas are too short ranged on the support squad. You'll need to drop them for a plasma or Volkite squad. personally I run a 10 man volkite with a Master of signal, with this you'll be hitting on 2s wounding on 2s with re-rolls if you've hit with another unit.

 

Logos is semi ok if you have a tonne of breachers receiving charges for counter assault. Otherwise its very restrictive. Without it you could pod in 2 contemptors kitted for close range with no scatter within 24" of the Damocles.

 

To summarise, you need a survivable threat that can distract the IW whilst your rhinos/contemptors rush in and some ranged units in cover to maximise your shooting.

 

Contemptors are confused. they have a mix of weapons and they're not sure if they want to hit something or shoot something. I'd have one CC and one Ranged.

 

The Breacher squad is setup for close range. It will need a Land Raider with assault ramp and given meltabombs or redeployed for ZM.

[thecrusadeeternal]

Vykes and Richmarine, thank you for the welcome and the good suggestions.

 

I should probably mention that I never aimed to create a ultra-competitive Iron Warriors' list; I simply wanted to create a force with plenty of artillery and their unique units, that I also wanted to paint.  As it happens, they struggle in the Zone Mortalis for the same reason they do well on a battlefield with plenty of cover.  Maybe I should ditch some of the cover...

 

I had thought about a flyer - it would be fun to paint - but they can be a little unsteady on the board and as Richmarine points out, those Siege Tyrants would make light work of it.  I thought about a Fulmentarus Squad, too, with Cyclone Missile launchers, and also a unit of Rapier Quad Launchers but then I would have a second Iron Warriors' army, just in blue.

 

I'm not tied to the Logos Lectora, and I do have 30 Breachers I can use but the Iron Warriors aren't going to charge them.  So perhaps a different Rite of War?

 

So it sounds as if support squads with Volkite Chargers (?) - because they aren't heavy - taking advatnage of the Interlocking Tactics are worthwhile.  And, Richmarine, like you I think the Suzerain are better than the Terminators.  Vykes, I like your suggestion of padding the Iron Warriors out with some less effective units, like another unit of Terminators.  And a Rifleman Contemptor for the Ultramarines might be an idea.

 

I think you're absolutely right that I need a either a survivable threat or a set of cheap threats to distract the Iron Warriors.  Maybe the Spartan with a bunch of Suzerain is that (but expensive)? Maybe I should spam more Predators?  Should I be using some better Fast Attack options such as drop pods and scimitars / javelins?  A Scorpius Whirlwind that can hide in cover (I did receive one from Santa...)?  

 

I have played only with the units outlined in my post, so I have no experience of what is effective in countering the IVth's gun line; any more suggestions, therefore, on how best to counter the Iron Warriors.